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India-Russia aircraft carrier deal on the rocks

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India-Russia aircraft carrier deal on the rocks

* Moscow demanding an additional $1.2bn for ‘retrofitting’
* Indian experts says Russia may be looking to relist ship​

NEW DELHI: Talks between India and Russia over the pricing of the Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier have broken down with Moscow threatening to cancel the deal, Indian sources have said.

The deal worth $1.5 billion was inked in 2004, but Moscow is now demanding an additional $1.2 billion for retrofitting. The Russians said they were offering 45,000 tonnes of ship to India free of cost and the amount was only meant for retrofitting, modernisation, and as payment for a squadron of MIG-29 fighter jets.

With India moving closer to the US, its defence relations with Russia have come under strain. Even in the recently concluded Defence India Expo here, where Americans and Israelis also participated, Russian participation lacked luster. Israel is now fast emerging as India’s second largest arms supplier. It is believed that Defence Secretary Vijay Singh, who was in Moscow to discuss the price dispute, has returned with no assurance. He also carried out physical verification of the retrofitting work. Russians say they need more money to carry out complex cabling and refitting in the ship.

Indian Naval chief Admiral Sureesh Mehta in October ruled out any renegotiation on price. Sources here said he had even advised the government not to re-open the deal and admitted the Groshkov rechristened as INS Vikramaditya would not be able to join the Navy in 2008 as per the original schedule. The ship would now join the Indian Navy in 2011 and “as far as we are concerned the ship is ours,” he said.

Relisting ship: Russian Prime Minister Viktor Zubkov, during his visit to Delhi last week, also discussed the matter with Prime Minister Manmohan Singh. Vijay Singh’s trip to Moscow had been a follow up. Experts here, however, say the renegotiation was just a tantrum and with their relations again straining with the US, the Russian Defence Ministry might be eyeing to relist the ship in its fleet. iftikhar gilani

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan
 
What new features are being added to the carrier that it's price is almost doubled?
 
India, Russia make progress on Gorshkov deal
23 Feb, 2008, 2204 hrs IST, PTI


MOSCOW: India and Russia are reported to have made substantial progress on the vexed issue of cost escalation of aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov during the visit of a high-level Indian defence delegation here.

According to the Russian industry sources, although both sides made progress on the issue, discussions on cost overruns are expected to continue next month.

Defence Secretary Vijay Singh led the delegation to carry out physical verification of additional refit work needed to be done on the carrier as claimed by Moscow.

During the five day visit of the delegation, which concluded yesterday, Singh held talks with Russian Energy and Industries Minister Viktor Khristenko and other senior officials who assured him that Moscow is making hectic efforts to ease the situation.

In the course of upgradation of Soviet-built Kiev Class aircraft carrier, lot of extra work and resources were required by the Sevmash Shipyard and the Indian team led by Singh had agreed that the new technical parameters don't fit into the initial USD 700 million allocation on the upgradation of the aircraft carrier.

The 45,000 tonne displacement carrier was to delivered by August this year as per a contract signed in 2004 but Russia stunned India in November by demanding USD 1.2 billion more for refitting and other works.
India, Russia make progress on Gorshkov deal- Airlines / Aviation-Transportation-News By Industry-News-The Economic Times



Carrier deal with India still on, claims Russia
(IANS)

24 February 2008

MOSCOW — The deal with India for selling the aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov stands, a spokesman for the Russian shipyard that is refurbishing the ship says, refuting reports that the deal could be scrapped.

Sevmash spokesman Mikhail Starozhilov said India is not interested in severing its contract with Rosoboronexport, Russia's sole state-run arms exporter, although it will have to pay an extra billion roubles for the ship.

"The two sides are currently actively involved in top-level negotiations. The Indian Navy chief will come in March to settle the differences. In Russia, this question is supervised by the ministry of defence. These facts prove that neither side wants to annul the contract," Starozhilov said.

Director of the foreign ministry's second department of Asia Alexander Maryasov said that the problems associated with the reconstruction of the ship were being discussed by high-ranking officials and experts.

"The sides are discussing a number of technical, legal and financial issues. In the near future, they will establish a working group to consider proposals on resolving this problem with a concerted effort. This is a solvable problem," the diplomat said.

Rosoboronexport and the Indian Navy signed the contract for the ship in 2004. The project provides for the vessel's repairs and modernisation. It will be equipped with the latest arms systems and ship-based MiG-29K fighters and anti-submarine early-warning Ka-27 and Ka-31 helicopters.

Khaleej Times Online - Carrier deal with India still on, claims Russia



I wonder whom to believe??? :pop:
 
The Americans must be licking their lips. If the Russian deal falls through, the IN will have no other option but to reverse their earlier decision and go for the Kitty Hawk. Subsequently, that will assure victory for Boeing to sell both land and ship borne versions of the F-18 Superhornet and EA-18 Growlers.
 
The Americans must be licking their lips. If the Russian deal falls through, the IN will have no other option but to reverse their earlier decision and go for the Kitty Hawk. Subsequently, that will assure victory for Boeing to sell both land and ship borne versions of the F-18 Superhornet and EA-18 Growlers.

yah and how much will that cost?........90 or so aircraft and a much bigger carrier.......think three to four times the price for the Russian deal (the airwing itself would be several billion on its own). If not more.....for a 47 year old ship.....that is double the tonnage, and frankly the likelihood of the Americans selling one is almost neglible.

Conclusion......never gonna happen..........
 
The Kitty Hawk has already been offered. The IN's chief admiral rejected the offer.

Chances are that the ship will me made really cheap since it isn't worth much provided the IN buys the full complement of F18 and EA 18s for it.
 
The Kitty Hawk has already been offered. The IN's chief admiral rejected the offer.

Chances are that the ship will me made really cheap since it isn't worth much provided the IN buys the full complement of F18 and EA 18s for it.

naaah kittyhawk is never gonna happen. I am sorry to burst your bubble

I am going to quote BD popeye a aircraft carrier expert over on SDF.
Firstly the USN is not in the habit of selling off or giving away super carriers.

The USN has in it's inventory 6 CVs waiting to be disposed of. Forrestal, Saratoga, Ranger, Independence, Constellation & John F. Kennedy. There are no plans to sell any of them off. Only the Kennedy is held in reserve. In fact the Forrestal is scheduled to be sunk this year. The America was sunk by the USN in May 2005.

This is a rumor that started after some Indian journalsit visited the Kitty Hawk while operating in the Bay of Bengal and asked the CO what would happen to the ship when it is decomissioned in 2008..I will paraphrase his answer. "It would be nice if we could give it to an ally like India".

Face it..Ain't gonna happen. The USN has a berth picked out in Bremerton WA for the Kitty Hawk to be berthed at once decomissioned.


Even if your wildest dreams came to fruition the cost and operating costs would beggar the IN for a while. How much would a airwing cost? at least $10 billion
 
Beijing
If current rumors in India are true, the United States could end up providing India what its traditional Russian arms supplier has long promised to provide, but so far failed to deliver. In the process the United States could deliver a severe blow to Russia's defense industry, adding another item to the long list of grievances Russian officialdom has lodged against the United States.

During the Cold War, India was famously the largest and most powerful of the "non-aligned" nations that stayed out of the East v. West confrontation. At the same time, however, India enjoyed close relations with the then-Soviet Union that went beyond just the bonds of political convenience and trade ties between the two nations.

Former Indian PM Indira Ghandi was one of Soviet Party Secretary Leonid Brezhnev's favorite foreign leaders, and he loved to make a show of that affection when she traveled to the USSR. Residents in sections of Moscow that straddle the main road leading from Vnukovo airport to the centre of the city can still recount how in those times they were dragooned by their local party officials to line the streets and wave Indian flags (if during the day) or flashlights (if at night) to greet Mrs. Ghandi's motorcade on official state visits.

India took advantage of their favored but non-allied nation status by purchasing from the USSR some of the most advanced weaponry
available at the time. In the 1970s and 80s, India's fledgling defense industry benefited from Soviet specialists providing them with numerous current-day weapons platforms and the establishment of production lines to license-build Soviet hardware, such as the Mikoyan MiG-27s that were assembled at the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) plant in Nasik.

The collapse of the Soviet empire only augmented Moscow's weapons trade with India. Russia needed export revenues to keep its defense sector alive, and New Delhi was only too happy to provide them. By the 1990s, Moscow was selling India some of the most advanced weaponry in its arsenal, including the high-powered Sukhoi Su-30MKI, a specialized variant of the heavyweight fighter than was optimized for aerodynamic performance and upgraded with a new-generation radar set, the NIIP N011M Bars model, that not even the Russian Air Force has in service.

In 2004 Russia and India signed a deal to provide the Indian Navy with an aircraft carrier and a navalized version of the MiG-29, designated the MiG-29K, in order to give New Delhi the power projection capability in the Indian Ocean that it had sought for some time.

On the face of it this seemed like the perfect deal for both sides. India was to be given an older-generation aircraft carrier, the Admiral Gorshkov, for free, but would have to pay $700 million for a refit of the vessel, plus they would have to purchase the MiG-29Ks and eight naval helicopters for another $800 million. India was also offered options to purchase an additional 30 MiG-29Ks and upgrades to Indian port facilities in order to dock and service the Gorshkov for a total of another $1.5 billion. But, the program has proven to be overly ambitious and has run into a number of snags that threaten to derail a decades-long symbiotic relationship.

For their part, RSK-MiG, the Moscow-based aircraft firm that is a combination of the old Mikoyan Design Bureau and several associated production facilities, have done a superb job with the MiG-29K. Prototypes of this aircraft first flew and landed successfully on the Russian carrier Admiral Kuznetsov in the late 1980s, proving that the structure of the basic conventional take-off and landing (CTOL) variant of the MiG-29 could be adapted into a carrier-suitable (CV) design.

Since that time, MiG has made numerous refinements to the configuration using more advanced materials and new-age avionics. So many changes were made that the original MiG-29K-9.31 designation has now been re-labeled the 9.41 configuration, with the changes making for qualitative and performance improvements almost equivalent to the difference between the Boeing F/A-18A/B and C/D models.

But, for all of the success at MiG in making good on their promises to the Indians to build a new-generation carrier airplane--tailhook and all--the progress on the carrier has been abysmal.

When the Russian state arms export agency Rosoboronexport (ROE) made the carrier deal, the vessel was scheduled to be delivered to the Indian Navy in 2008. ROE must not have known what they were getting themselves into and as of last summer the bad news for the Indians could no longer be kept secret. As reported by Russian military analyst Aleksandr Golts, "the money [$1.5 billion] was allocated, but the work was never done."

Another Russian military commentator, Pavel Felgenhauer, stated the situation more bluntly in one of his columns on the carrier entitled
"Sold: The $1.5 Billion Lemon."

The Gorshkov is roughly have the size of a U.S. carrier and was originally designed with a flight deck large enough only for a vertical take-off and short landing (VSTOL) airplane like the famous Harrier jump jets operated by the U.S. Marine Corps and the Royal Navy. Russia's Cold War-era answer to the Harrier was the Yakovlev Yak-38, a lackluster performer and an airplane so dangerous that was referred to as "the widowmaker."

In order to accommodate the MiG-29K, the Gorshkov requires an extension to its flight deck to accommodate a CV capable airplane, installation of an arrested landing system like that used on U.S. and French carriers, plus a replacement of its maintenance intensive steam propulsion system with a diesel powerplant. All of this has proven to be too much to do for the original price agreed, so ROE are now demanding an additional $1.2 billion to finish the job. The Indian Navy's chief Admiral, Surreesh Mehta, has obliquely suggested in the local press that this is little more than blackmail given that the Indians have already sunk so much into the program that it is too late to back out now.

Enter the United States. According to numerous sources inside India, when U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates visits New Delhi late in February (provided his Tuesday Potomac Primary Day broken shoulder does not alter his itinerary) he will be carrying a signed letter from U.S. President George W. Bush offering a better deal for India than the one they have been struggling to get out of Moscow for four years now. The Indian Navy will reportedly be offered the soon-to-be decommissioned USS Kitty Hawk (CV 63) aircraft carrier for free--provided the Indian Navy will agree to purchase 65 of the newest model Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornets to be operated off of it.

If true--and if New Delhi accepts--this can do more than just sink the Russian carrier deal and the MiG-29K contract. The Indian Air Force (IAF) are deep in the throes of a tender to purchase almost 200 new fighter aircraft, with Boeing and RSK-MiG both in the field of six contenders. An order of 200 fighter airplanes is unheard of--larger than any such export sale in more than 20 years. In an era where sales of 12, 20, or 40 fighters are more common, this is the PowerBall Lotto of export competitions.

If the Indian Navy decide to take on the F/A-18E/Fs, it makes logistical sense for the IAF to do the same and the competition for this massive sale would probably be over for all of the other competitors before it gets started. This would be a huge blow to the fortunes of RSK-MiG, who are bidding an advanced, developed MiG-29 model they have now re-labeled the MiG-35. It could make it hard for the famous Russian planemaker to stay in the military aircraft market.

Just last December Boeing placed $1 billion worth of outsourced production with India's HAL. To run for 10 years, this contract will have the Indians building portions of the F/A-18E/F, the Chinook CH-47 helicopter, and other Boeing platforms. This incentive--plus the carrier deal--could make the Boeing Super Hornet the proverbial offer that is too good to pass up.

Moscow's reaction is likely to be less than joyful. Americans in general and President Bush in particular are not very popular with the Russian populace these days and are generally blamed for all of the country's ills in the same way that the Jews were the scapegoats for every misfortune during Soviet times. One Moscow colleague told me recently that this "popular disease of blaming the U.S. for everything has reached almost epidemic proportions. The other day I heard some older, retired people talking about the high prices that we all pay in Moscow and--of course--that it is all the fault of Americans."

The Kremlin is likely to react in tune with the people on the street and take the official line that this is an American conspiracy to rob Russia of its long-time Indian market for defense exports. Boeing--the chief supplier of aircraft to the U.S. Navy--will be accused of giving away a billion dollars in orders and the U.S. Navy of giving away the Kitty Hawk so that the United States can extend its influence and make the Indian Navy an integrated component of the US Naval presence in the Indian Ocean.

"American Imperialism is rising--we must be prepared to counter it," will be the line from Russia's all-but-certain-to-be future President Dmitri Medvedev. Or, it may be ex-President and future designated PM Vladimir Putin who decides to use his new position as a bully pulpit to advance Russian foreign policy objectives.

Either way, Moscow will be most unhappy and looking for what means it can to celebrate this indignation, which means look for relations to take a turn downward and for harassment of U.S. carrier battle groups by long-range Russian Tupolev Tu-95 Bear bombers to be on the upswing. All of which will look just like what it is--a return to Cold War behavior, as well as the thinking that is behind it all.

The Carrier Cold War
The Carrier Cold War
 
The Kitty Hawk has already been offered. The IN's chief admiral rejected the offer.
Chances are that the ship will me made really cheap since it isn't worth much provided the IN buys the full complement of F18 and EA 18s for it.

Ohh...... really....!!!! when ? where? by whom???
 
"Dream come true" etc are a non sequitur. I have no personal interest in any of this. It is however interesting to watch the cut throat nature of the business.

Keeping old ships around after decomissioning is a very expensive venture, especially if a ship has low operational value. The battleships Missouri (now a museum ship at Pearl Harbor) and the USS New Jersey (will become a museum in NJ) were good examples of the lack of cost effectiveness of mothballing old ships.

The Kitty Hawk unlike many other ships doesn't really have a great sentimental value, which casts a doubt on it's potential as a museum ship. However, given that it's a conventional powered ship unlike the rest of the carriers in the USN fleet, and the ability to use it to garner US contracts for Boeing, it becomes a great bargaining tool.

Also, Indian Navy Pilots have been training under the USN to do carrier take off and landings on the Boeing T45 Goshawks.
 
Ohh...... really....!!!! when ? where? by whom???

Indian navy chief: No negotiations on aircraft carrier with Russia_English_Xinhua

NEW DELHI, Dec. 4 (Xinhua) -- Indian Navy chief Admiral SureeshMehta Monday said there should be no renegotiation on the aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov price and the delay in delivery, local newspaper The Indian Express reported on Thursday.

Mehta said demand for more money from Moscow should make New Delhi "think where our relations with Russia are going".

According to the report, Russia was seeking 1.2 billion U.S. dollars more for the aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov, more than twice the original cost.

"The Navy line is that the government should not get into price renegotiation at all. If today we reopen Gorshkov, tomorrow all our projects with Russia can be opened for renegotiation," Mehta told reporters.

Maintaining that Moscow should honor the original price contract signed in 2004, Mehta said penalty clauses will be implemented by India in case of any delay in the project.

"There will be a lot of additions and subtractions and in the end, I personally don't think we will be paying much more, if at all anything, extra," he said.

He made it clear there would be no going back on the Gorshkov deal. "We have put in 500 million U.S. dollars into the project already. We own the ship? If they put enough manpower on the ship today, it will take two years plus to complete the work. We would see the ship by early 2011 or late 2010," he said.

He ruled out the acquisition of the U.S. Kitty Hawk, the conventionally powered U.S. carrier due to retire next year, saying that it was a "1960s platform".
 
"Dream come true" etc are a non sequitur. I have no personal interest in any of this. It is however interesting to watch the cut throat nature of the business.

Keeping old ships around after decomissioning is a very expensive venture, especially if a ship has low operational value. The battleships Missouri (now a museum ship at Pearl Harbor) and the USS New Jersey (will become a museum in NJ) were good examples of the lack of cost effectiveness of mothballing old ships.

The Kitty Hawk unlike many other ships doesn't really have a great sentimental value, which casts a doubt on it's potential as a museum ship. However, given that it's a conventional powered ship unlike the rest of the carriers in the USN fleet, and the ability to use it to garner US contracts for Boeing, it becomes a great bargaining tool.

Also, Indian Navy Pilots have been training under the USN to do carrier take off and landings on the Boeing T45 Goshawks.

Well since the start of this story is a quote taken out of context by a member of the glorious south Asian defence press. As far as I am concerned it holds no water whatsoever. The USN sinks carriers to make artificial reefs before giving them away.
Well members of the PAF have flown the eurofighter....guess by that logic that the PAF will be getting them too right? The Goshawk thing means nothing
at all.
All this is, is seethrough gamesmanship (not taken seriously by anyone at all) trying to show the Russians that "see the Americans are offering us a carrier too!"

Conclusion....kitty hawk is going into mothballs.........
 
Well since the start of this story is a quote taken out of context by a member of the glorious south Asian defence press. As far as I am concerned it holds no water whatsoever. The USN sinks carriers to make artificial reefs before giving them away.
Well members of the PAF have flown the eurofighter....guess by that logic that the PAF will be getting them too right? The Goshawk thing means nothing
at all.
All this is, is seethrough gamesmanship (not taken seriously by anyone at all) trying to show the Russians that "see the Americans are offering us a carrier too!"

Conclusion....kitty hawk is going into mothballs.........

KH is way too big for IN to maintain. Worse it is like learning alphabets all over again!
Anyone remember KH uses catapult to launch aircraft!

It is some after lunch day dreaming by some "defence reporters"
 
The Americans must be licking their lips. If the Russian deal falls through, the IN will have no other option but to reverse their earlier decision and go for the Kitty Hawk. Subsequently, that will assure victory for Boeing to sell both land and ship borne versions of the F-18 Superhornet and EA-18 Growlers.

Well my Indian friend, IN only have one option and Russia knows it. No wonder they are doubling the price.
 

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