India ran to uncle sam to force Pakistan to retreat!

[Mav3rick]

Pakistan's mistake started when we first joined US camp. The peak of stupidity was when we joined the fight against USSR in Afghanistan that took away a balancing superpower. Afghan crisis could have been solved diplomatically over the years.

US has never been our friend, but our elite couldn't get this through to their brains.

USSR was not interested in invading Pakistan but West made it look like that and our charsi religious leaders started conveying the same msg to the people.

The moment USSR disintegrated, US started trying to lick India to capture a 7 times bigger market and to contain emerging China.

I doubt we have learnt anything from our past.

2 Questions for you:

1. What was so stupid about joining the US camp?

2. Was there NO possibility of USSR marching into Pakistan after a cake walk into Afghanistan, had their invasion not been blunted there?

 

[Kaleem.61]

When in reality, when the IAF started pounding our forward lines, we lost a lot of brave soldiers and abandoned others. How do we forget that we refused to take our soldiers' bodies at one point?

I have heard Indian General saying "Our soldiers were doing toilet in boxes and were scared of going out where Pakistan had done worst with our posts with superior artillery. Pakistanis were dancing on their posts and indian army did not dare to respond"

And in a TV show One school principle saying that in Kargil our soldiers were untrained and were not having shoes to wear.

Are we from the same planet??

 

[Mav3rick]

Not only that but funny thing is it was 2500 of our boys that too it was from NLI which until Kargil was a Para Military Force, India on the other end brought 40000 troops backed by 100 Fighter Jets and latest Artillery. Still Kargil war went for 3 months and even after fighting for 3 months and bombing the hell out of our boys they still failed to get all the peaks backs and Pakistan is still sitting on these peaks in Kargil.

Kargil peaks still under Pakistani control as of 2018

• Point 5353
• Point Aftab-I
• Point Saddle Ridge
• Point Bunker Ridge
• Shangruti
• Dhalunag

And also India loosing of 1800 soldiers in 2002 stand off without fighting the war is also well documented.

@Myth_buster_1

Just to add, many of the points that Indian Military later captured was only because the NLI was ordered to retreat otherwise they would have fought to the last man and in the process would have taken down many more Indian Soldiers...........lest anybody forget the coffin crisis India faced during Kargil battle.

Up until 1990s it was always Pakistan that was the aggressor who has fought multiple wars over kashmir.

Do you seriously think US would chose Pakistan over India after collapsed Soviet Union? India offered them trade, tech services, and much more while Pakistan was NO use for US accept for being a vessel for its imposed policies! Regardless of Kargil, US was bond to get closer to India because of its economic benefits which would be in BILLIONS!
Forcing Pakistan to retreat was a GIFT to India from US.

Exactly!!

Pakistan underestimated US reaction. Had US not intervened in India's favor Pakistan would have had upper hand resolving Kashmir's issue in their own terms.

Even if the US had committed to remain neutral and impartial, Pakistan could have upped the ante by supporting the NLI which would have resulted in either Pakistan maintaining the choke-hold or an all out war.

The timing of NS's visit to the White House actually made a lot of sense, since on that day most Americans would have been too busy stuffing their faces with hot dogs to notice the fact that the leader of a country that could potentially start a nuclear conflict was in Washington begging Clinton for a bailout. Clinton obviously wasn't having it.

On the contrary, Nawaz was summoned by Clinton because of Indian Blackmail to the world of a Nuclear War in the event Pakistan did not retreat; this was evidently because even after mobilizing 40k soldiers and 10+ squadrons of IAF the 'mighty' Indian Military could not get all the positions vacated from roughly 3000-5000 non-regulars!!!

What else to say of the shortage of coffins in India during Kargil conflict.

 

[Xestan]

I have heard Indian General saying "Our soldiers were doing toilet in boxes and were scared of going out where Pakistan had done worst with our posts with superior artillery. Pakistanis were dancing on their posts and indian army did not dare to respond"

And in a TV show One school principle saying that in Kargil our soldiers were untrained and were not having shoes to wear.

Are we from the same planet??

This was earlier in the Operation when Indians were caught off-guard. When Indians moved Bofors to the higher altitudes, our positions were pounded very accurately. Why do you think supply line to Tiger Hill was cut and all our troops there were martyred and not a single one made it out alive?

When Mirage-2000s dropped laser guided bombs, it was over for us.

 

[Mav3rick]

Then Pakistan's entire history is full of blunders!
Who ever included east with west Pakistan from the beginning were bunch of IDIOTS because east Pakistan had NO commonality with west other then religion. Heck Bengal had more commonality with India then they did with Pakistan. How such a poor nation like Pakistan was suppose to manage another country (Bengladesh) which is geographically separated with a GIANT enemy (India) in between the TWO! Even if India was in Pakistan's position with two parts geographically separated would have also been capitalized by Pakistan by now (like if IOK was on the other side of Pakistan).
In fact the British gifted India Pakistan's weakness in form of East Pakistan which it would exploit PERFECTLY in its favor at the right time and situation.
In fact all wars fought over Kashmir were initiated by Pakistan which did not yield much result! As a matter of fact might as well Pakistan embrace India's removal of article which would ease massive liability from Pakistan's shoulder and no more would 250 million Pakistanis suffer as consequences for supporting 15 million IOKs.
Listen, both India and Pakistan are right and wrong in its own point of view. Just because British empire awarded Pakistan for Muslim majority state... does it also make Pak right full owner of Indian muslim majority land even without their consent? The thing is, Pakistan did not really earn Pakistan! It was given to us in a platter by British empire packed with ticking time blunders! like all these corruptions happening in Pakistan traces back to its origin which is nothing but a British empire virus which has infected the body (Pakistan). I can goo on and on with blunders leading back to founding fathers who were implemented by non other then British empire. You may ask why India is so ahead of Pakistan? Let me also bring little bit of religion into this, its in prophecy where muslims will be divided and their is nothing what you or me can do about this other then watch! You can try come up with best plans but you will fail! and oh, Brits also did India a favor by separating what is now almost half a billion muslims who would have been a throne in India's progression. Just imagine current India's situation 10 times worst! No trillion dollars economy no democracy just anarchy!
To cut things short.... Both India and Pakistan are right and wrong in their own point of view. Pakistan side with their point of view and India do the same with theirs. Pakistan's perspective is they are the rightful owner of IOK at least this is what Pakistani state thinks (other wise no one in their right mind would die for someone else rights "kashmir's freedom").
Now, why did I open Kargil conflict thread? As military historic point of view, I just dont like pathological liars and just wanted to share how India received a bloody nose from a smaller weaker nation and resorted to seeking uncle sam's support to force pakistan to retreat.

I largely agree with your post except the end bit.

Consider a united and unified India with 1.1 Billion Hindus and 600-700 Million Muslims (the total population of India, Pakistan and Bangladesh). This would have been a super power which would have no equal in the world by this time. Despite regression, religious conflicts, wars and what not, these countries have prospered, and at times faltered. Now add unity, take away division, wars and conflicts and imagine the progress and growth.

This was earlier in the Operation when Indians were caught off-guard. When Indians moved Bofors to the higher altitudes, our positions were pounded very accurately. Why do you think supply line to Tiger Hill was cut and all our troops there were martyred and not a single one made it out alive?

When Mirage-2000s dropped laser guided bombs, it was over for us.

It would have taken India 25 years of daily artillery fire to take down the positions which were occupied by our non-regulars. And how many months were the 3000-5000 men supposed to hold on to ALL their positions against 40k soldiers backed by 10+ squadrons of IAF? They lost some and remained firm at some but the important thing to note here is the fact that India could still not get all the positions vacated, not even today!

 

[PakSword]

2 Questions for you:

1. What was so stupid about joining the US camp?

2. Was there NO possibility of USSR marching into Pakistan after a cake walk into Afghanistan, had their invasion not been blunted there?

1. If it was not stupid then, it's not stupid now too. Why are we telling the US and everyone else now that we are neutral?

2. Assumption... USSR didn't fully attack Pakistan even after knowing that we are completely involved in Afghanistan. It would have attacked us even before Afghanistan if it had any such intentions.. The genie of "USSR wants access to warm waters" was created by US and its allies to scare us of a possible invasion. The same access we are now offering to Russia.

We have to understand that we have always fought US wars and US has never helped us.. The aircraft carrier that was reaching Bay of Bengal in 1971 is still on the way. US used us against USSR and then dumped us and started licking Indian *.

A few gadgets and planes that US has given us, it has given them to Egypt as well, knowing that any anti Israel government could use them in future against its only true ally in the ME.

 

[Xestan]

It would have taken India 25 years of daily artillery fire to take down the positions which were occupied by our non-regulars. And how many months were the 3000-5000 men supposed to hold on to ALL their positions against 40k soldiers backed by 10+ squadrons of IAF? They lost some and remained firm at some but the important thing to note here is the fact that India could still not get all the positions vacated, not even today!

In fact it didn't take them 25 years but 2 weeks of direct fire to the posts. Mirage-2000s dropped the bombs and our bunkers on Tiger Hills were ashes. By the time Indian Troops got close to Tiger Hill post, only Captain Kernal Sher Khan remained alive.

So, whatever you are saying, has no basis in military studies and these are claims driven by your own imagination dipped in hyper-nationalism.

 

[Mav3rick]

1. If it was not stupid then, it's not stupid now too. Why are we telling the US and everyone else now that we are neutral?

2. Assumption... USSR didn't fully attack Pakistan even after knowing that we are completely involved in Afghanistan. It would have attacked us even before Afghanistan if it had any such intentions.. The genie of "USSR wants access to warm waters" was created by US and its allies to scare us of a possible invasion. The same access we are now offering to Russia.

We have to understand that we have always fought US wars and US has never helped us.. The aircraft carrier that was reaching Bay of Bengal in 1971 is still on the way. US used us against USSR and then dumped us and started licking Indian *.

A few gadgets and planes that US has given us, it has given them to Egypt as well, knowing that any anti Israel government could use them in future against its only true ally in the ME.

1. I was asking why it was stupid to join the US Camp; it has nothing to do with going to war for the US.

2. The entire cause of history is molded on decisions made on assumptions, some correct and others incorrect. In this case, we have the example of Crimea which Russia forcefully annexed and it is no secret that it was done because of the warm water port. So, consider for a moment, could the Government, back in late 70's, afford to take a chance on the assumption that the Soviet Union may NOT be after Pakistani warm waters?

Now coming to your point on fighting US wars, which US war did we fight exactly?

 

[PakSword]

1. I was asking why it was stupid to join the US Camp; it has nothing to do with going to war for the US.

2. The entire cause of history is molded on decisions made on assumptions, some correct and others incorrect. In this case, we have the example of Crimea which Russia forcefully annexed and it is no secret that it was done because of the warm water port. So, consider for a moment, could the Government, back in late 70's, afford to take a chance on the assumption that the Soviet Union may NOT be after Pakistani warm waters?

Now coming to your point on fighting US wars, which US war did we fight exactly?

Lets agree to disagree here..

 

[Mav3rick]

In fact it didn't take them 25 years but 2 weeks of direct fire to the posts. Mirage-2000s dropped the bombs and our bunkers on Tiger Hills were ashes. By the time Indian Troops got close to Tiger Hill post, only Captain Kernal Sher Khan remained alive.

So, whatever you are saying, has no basis in military studies and these are claims driven by your own imagination dipped in hyper-nationalism.

Perhaps you are correct, and my 'imagination' is indeed dipped in hyper-nationalism. A question pops into mind, which you may have very conveniently ignored, being so 'pragmatic and enlightened'......why was India UNABLE to take back all the posts, including point 5353, if her Bofors and Mirages were indeed so effective?

 

[Novice09]

Exactly, people should stop glorifying Kargil blunder. Nothing good came of it and it failed not because of the civilian leadership but because of the Musharraf, his comrades, and their poor planning.

Kargil and Parliament attack after Agra and Lahore summit... BACKSTABBING your neighbour...
And then leaving BRAVEHEARTS IN KARGIL as STATELESS ACTORS... BACKSTABBING your Armymen...

I don't understand how Parvez Musharraf was doing good for Pakistan...
Even during Afghan war AKA war on terror... he totally surrendered in front of US...

Kargil war was lost because of living in fools paradise and believing that India is too weak to retaliate...

Perhaps you are correct, and my 'imagination' is indeed dipped in hyper-nationalism. A question pops into mind, which you may have very conveniently ignored, being so 'pragmatic and enlightened'......why was India UNABLE to take back all the posts, including point 5353, if her Bofors and Mirages were indeed so effective?

Politicians... and I rest my case...

 

[Xestan]

Perhaps you are correct, and my 'imagination' is indeed dipped in hyper-nationalism. A question pops into mind, which you may have very conveniently ignored, being so 'pragmatic and enlightened'......why was India UNABLE to take back all the posts, including point 5353, if her Bofors and Mirages were indeed so effective?

Point 5353 has been neutralised in theory since India enjoys similar advantage on Point 5310 on our side of LoC.

Why wasn't it taken back by the Indians during the war, is simply because the hostilities ceased to exist and the use of Air Force was not an option anymore. Indian objective was Tiger Hill, Point 5353 is not how Pakistanis have made it to be. Have you been to the area? Do you know that Indians have similar kinds of peaks captured on our side as well?

Point 5353 was tried to be taken by the IA but they failed, simply because the CAS could not be called in.

So, the point you conveniently ignore is that why were our troops ripped out of the bunkers at Tiger Hill and not a single one of them survived to tell the tale? They didn't even get the opportunity to fallback. Why?

 

[Mav3rick]

Point 5353 has been neutralised in theory since India enjoys similar advantage on Point 5310 on our side of LoC.

Why wasn't it taken back by the Indians during the war, is simply because the hostilities ceased to exist and the use of Air Force was not an option anymore. Indian objective was Tiger Hill, Point 5353 is not how Pakistanis have made it to be. Have you been to the area? Do you know that Indians have similar kinds of peaks captured on our side as well?

Point 5353 was tried to be taken by the IA but they failed, simply because the CAS could not be called in.

So, the point you conveniently ignore is that why were our troops ripped out of the bunkers at Tiger Hill and not a single one of them survived to tell the tale? They didn't even get the opportunity to fallback. Why?

I don't have a roll count, neither have I access to the NLI who were indeed fighting at Tiger Hill or Tololong or similar peaks so have no first hand account or narration of events from the horse's mouth. What I do have is a conclusion based on what happened and what did not happen. India had deployed a massive amount of resources to retake Kargil peaks and in no world would have have 'compromised' unless they had no other option.

5353 is a fact, one of many other posts which we hold even today, which indicates that Indian Military was simply unable to retake all the positions and even many of the positions which they eventually captured was only made possible when the NLI were issued orders to retreat; incidentally, during retreat we took the heaviest casualties.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

I largely agree with your post except the end bit.

Consider a united and unified India with 1.1 Billion Hindus and 600-700 Million Muslims (the total population of India, Pakistan and Bangladesh). This would have been a super power which would have no equal in the world by this time. Despite regression, religious conflicts, wars and what not, these countries have prospered, and at times faltered. Now add unity, take away division, wars and conflicts and imagine the progress and growth.

Its just not realistically possible for such a huge population to be united under one government. Hindus would still have been majority meaning governance and policies would be unfavorable to Muslims.

 

[Minho]

There we go with that 5353 stuff agian, which has already been debated to death on this forum

1. Even if Pakistan captured 5353, assuming it was on the Indian side, India occupied points 5310, 5240, adn others on the Pakistani side. Why couldn't Pakistan capture those peaks back, despite supposedly having the most strategic peaks?

2. All peaks involved were vacated by both India and Pakistan in 2003, so any strategic advantages gained by either side were neutralized. The fact is, India's supply lines to Siachen have remained unhindered, which means Pakistan's goal behind initiating Kargil remains unfulfilled.