India-Pakistan war games, and Cold Start

[frodo]

these are just plans on papers. lets see what happens when the next actual war happens between these two counties.

 

[ajpirzada]

I know what's Cold Start is.

But, as i have already said in my post that it can escalate into full fledged war and china can also open some fronts just to divide India's capacities.

So, before making any such attempt in case of another 26/11 type attack we should fully prepare for a big war.

man i never said u dont need to get all those weapon systems. all im saying is that cold start is a lot more than gud weapons. all ur weapons will be of no use to coldstart if u lack quickness and high level of coordination.

and before u say something else let me clear another thing. i havent said weapons will be useless but they will be useless for ur coldstart strategy.

once on high alert it will take pakistan 25 minutes to get its armoured corp on the battlefield. now unless u beat us to that and destroy our network in less than 25 minutes, coldstart will not work.

see the difficulty with coldstart?

 

[Peshwa]

man i never said u dont need to get all those weapon systems. all im saying is that cold start is a lot more than gud weapons. all ur weapons will be of no use to coldstart if u lack quickness and high level of coordination.

and before u say something else let me clear another thing. i havent said weapons will be useless but they will be useless for ur coldstart strategy.

once on high alert it will take pakistan 25 minutes to get its armoured corp on the battlefield. now unless u beat us to that and destroy our network in less than 25 minutes, coldstart will not work.

see the difficulty with coldstart?

Im sorry, but since when did Pakistan get the ability to mobilize its troops in 25 minutes?.....(Is this in reference to the recent excercise?)

Surely the concentration of armored corps is different in different parts of areas bordering India.....how exactly are the armed forces supposed to counterstrike within 25 minutes without knowing the distance of the theatre of battle from where the armor is stationed?...let alone get there when Pakistan lacks extensive infrastructure for movement?

Plus, the initial strike in accordance with coldstart will be a co-ordination between Airforce and ground forces.....One of the reasons Indian armed forces have been trying to go network centric.....which of course is not an easy task nor is anywhere close to completion....

Rest assured I am quite certain that Pakistan is not close to acquiring this ability either, unless I missed a very important piece of info.....

Always interested in learning....so correct me if Im wrong....

 

[ajpirzada]

Im sorry, but since when did Pakistan get the ability to mobilize its troops in 25 minutes?.....(Is this in reference to the recent excercise?)

Surely the concentration of armored corps is different in different parts of areas bordering India.....how exactly are the armed forces supposed to counterstrike within 25 minutes without knowing the distance of the theatre of battle from where the armor is stationed?...let alone get there when Pakistan lacks extensive infrastructure for movement?

Plus, the initial strike in accordance with coldstart will be a co-ordination between Airforce and ground forces.....One of the reasons Indian armed forces have been trying to go network centric.....which of course is not an easy task nor is anywhere close to completion....

Rest assured I am quite certain that Pakistan is not close to acquiring this ability either, unless I missed a very important piece of info.....

Always interested in learning....so correct me if Im wrong....

here is the text and the source

On the occasion it was announced that during the on-going exercise the troops of Pakistan army have achieved the capability of deployment of its mechanized units within a shortest possible time of 25 minutes as compared to the earlier of 75 minutes.
This capability has been achieved to counter the adversary’s cold start doctrine.

Associated Press Of Pakistan ( Pakistan's Premier NEWS Agency ) - Pakistan army exhibits capability to target drone

majority of the mechanised units will be used in desert area where india will try to cut pakistan into half. remaining will be there to cover punjab plains. so having our mechanised units already stationed in such areas makes it relatively easier for us to deploy them in such short time.
this is wat i can make out of it. im not any expert in this area so cant get into specifications.

 

[Peshwa]

here is the text and the source



majority of the mechanised units will be used in desert area where india will try to cut pakistan into half. remaining will be there to cover punjab plains. so having our mechanised units already stationed in such areas makes it relatively easier for us to deploy them in such short time.
this is wat i can make out of it. im not any expert in this area so cant get into specifications.

Thanks for sharing....

However would like a POV from a military professional from Pak that can shed some light on how this is made possible....

 

[TaimiKhan]

Thanks for sharing....

However would like a POV from a military professional from Pak that can shed some light on how this is made possible....

They are not talking about the mobilization time period, they are talking about the dispersal time period of the armored formations, meaning the time taken by the armored formations to get to their assigned places of deployment in war scenario.

If you remember in the 2001-02 stand off, some Indian general was i believe relieved of his command for having stationed the armor assets to close to the border, as it could have either given a false alarm to Pakistan about an imminent attack or the IA armor formations could have been easily destroyed as they were parked so close to the border.

Armor formations are mostly few miles deep inside boundaries, lets say 50KM away from border, so in case of need, how much time it will be taken for these armor formations to reach the border or to their deployment positions, which may be 10-15 Km inside the border or even less.

As for mobilization, well the time period for us is still short, as already most of the troops are stationed close to the border and those which are far away, would be at the border positions within days.

 

[Bill Longley]

I know what's Cold Start is.

But, as i have already said in my post that it can escalate into full fledged war and china can also open some fronts just to divide India's capacities.

So, before making any such attempt in case of another 26/11 type attack we should fully prepare for a big war.

Mr Banyay

how many times china intervened in Indo-Pak war?

lolzzz

why this war hysteria?

if I am not wrong India is afraid nation
afraid because it knows what it has sown will bear fruit and fruit is what indians most dislike

 

[ice_man]

They are not talking about the mobilization time period, they are talking about the dispersal time period of the armored formations, meaning the time taken by the armored formations to get to their assigned places of deployment in war scenario.

If you remember in the 2001-02 stand off, some Indian general was i believe relieved of his command for having stationed the armor assets to close to the border, as it could have either given a false alarm to Pakistan about an imminent attack or the IA armor formations could have been easily destroyed as they were parked so close to the border.

Armor formations are mostly few miles deep inside boundaries, lets say 50KM away from border, so in case of need, how much time it will be taken for these armor formations to reach the border or to their deployment positions, which may be 10-15 Km inside the border or even less.

As for mobilization, well the time period for us is still short, as already most of the troops are stationed close to the border and those which are far away, would be at the border positions within days.

thanks taimi! people don't understand the difference between dispersal & deployment!

i have read somewhere that if an indo-china war happens neither side will be able to counter a "surprise attack" and deploy effectively until 24 HOURS!! they might disperse there troops within an hour or 2 of hostilities but to actually deploy to battle positions might take them around 24 hours!

currently the cold start is ONLY targeted towards pakistan! it is also clearly evident from the fact that india didn't conduct any exercise in its northern region bordering china!

Cold start is just to optimistic! indians plan to knock out pakistan with in the 24 hours that it takes china to deploy!

sooverall Indias plan is to go to war with china and while china reacts knock out pakistan so china has no support left! if you ask me it is a RECKLESS plan & to optimistic just like Musharraf's plan of kargil!

or how bold & optimistic the The Schlieffen Plan of world war 1 was!

alot of things are left to LUCK being on the indian side!

 

[niaz]

It is an established fact that massed armored attack; say 300 tanks supported by air and infantry; by an Indian Strike corps (ala blitzkrieg) stands a good chance of penetrating 40 to 50 km thru sheer momentum.

You strike before the adversary gets time to prepare defenses, grab a good chunk of real estate and then negotiate from strength. The concept of the ‘Cold Start’, that is ability to strike without obvious signs of deployment is therefore in principle a good one; even though it assumes localized air superiority.

However, since main battleground is flat desert, opportunities of deception (such as Ardennes offensive of WWII) are few thus a complete surprise unlikely. Additionally, unless PAF can be neutralized very early as Israeli managed in 1967; chances of success are limited.

During the cold war era, US forces faced with the problem of defending against thousand of Soviet tanks along the West/East German frontier deployed battle field nuclear weapon system (Honest John) to deal with the threat. IMO, should the ‘Cold Start’ threat become a reality; Pakistan may be a forced to use nuclear weapons thus lowering the nuclear threshold.

 

[Justin Joseph]

man i never said u dont need to get all those weapon systems. all im saying is that cold start is a lot more than gud weapons. all ur weapons will be of no use to coldstart if u lack quickness and high level of coordination.

and before u say something else let me clear another thing. i havent said weapons will be useless but they will be useless for ur coldstart strategy.

once on high alert it will take pakistan 25 minutes to get its armoured corp on the battlefield. now unless u beat us to that and destroy our network in less than 25 minutes, coldstart will not work.

see the difficulty with coldstart?

I don't know why u are not getting my simple point??

I know for Cold Start we don't need these toys but my point is that we should not take risk. Because our Cold start can turn into full scale long war instead of limited war

First get ourselves prepared for full fledged war with cutting edge most modern stuff and familiarize with them.

Then strike at a lightning speed and carry out the plan "Cold Start".

If it get limited war as we want then its good or if it gets into a large scale war then we would have prepared for it also.

As first time in our history we will be attacking a nation in response to proxy war, so we have the element of surprise and gains of first mover.

 

[nakodo]

I speak as a layman, so don't aim for my jugular if you find something funny...

If Pakistan can quickly mobilise, then India can neutralise that threat with shock and awe tactics, say a conventional Prithvi series, Agni series, Brahmos strikes all across Pakistan simultaneously, before the tanks and infantry start to roll. Air bases, Naval bases, Ammo dumps, fuel dumps, electricity stations, TV station, radio station, cantts, workshops, MI complex, telecom networks etc. are fixed assets they can be targeted within minutes of start of hostilities. Armoured and Mech Inf can start rumbling in within say minutes of destruction of enemy's fixed assets to destroy enemies left standing from initial missiles strike.

I am assuming low CEPs and accurate targeting.

 

[Bill Longley]

I speak as a layman, so don't aim for my jugular if you find something funny...

If India can quickly mobilise, then Pakistan can neutralise that threat with shock and awe tactics, say a conventional Ghori, Tipu and Ghaznvi series strikes all across India simultaneously, before the tanks and infantry start to roll. Air bases, Naval bases, Ammo dumps, fuel dumps, electricity stations, TV station, radio station, cantts, workshops, MI complex, telecom networks are fixed assetts they can be targeted within minutes of start of hostilities. Armoured and Mech Inf can start rumbling in within say minutes of destruction of enemy's fixed assets.

 

[nakodo]

I speak as a layman, so don't aim for my jugular if you find something funny...

If India can quickly mobilise, then Pakistan can neutralise that threat with shock and awe tactics, say a conventional Ghori, Tipu and Ghaznvi series strikes all across India simultaneously, before the tanks and infantry start to roll. Air bases, Naval bases, Ammo dumps, fuel dumps, electricity stations, TV station, radio station, cantts, workshops, MI complex, telecom networks are fixed assetts they can be targeted within minutes of start of hostilities. Armoured and Mech Inf can start rumbling in within say minutes of destruction of enemy's fixed assets.

I see, so the trick for India (coming from an arm chair soldier) will be to:

A. Seize initiative. Else losses are higher since if you dont plunder the enemy in time he can return the favour. The conventional threshold will have to be very low. Something like start of another 26/11. As soon as fundus call their handlers in Pakistan for directions. We can get busy with fixing blame later (for foreign Govt.'s consumption).
B. Make sure there is continuous tracking of all mobile military assets with the enemy and train conventional missiles in a state of readiness at fixed targets, which may be altered as required. This can be done via Indian military satellites and R&AW assets on the ground.
C. All of Pakistan has to be brought under conventional missile range.
D. IBGs have to be small enough & sufficiently dispersed to avoid providing lucrative targets to enemy missiles. Wherever there is a significant massing of men and machine will be under threat of cruise missile attack. This means India has to connect all its assets from soldier & tanks & helis etc. in the field to each other within an IBG and back to HQ for a realtime war to be effectively fought.

It is extremely crucial to disrupt coherence in the enemy, to lower threat to advancing columns. I suppose it will be better to attack in a smaller group first and neutralise enemy assets (something like sacrificial goats, but if more lives can be saved then why not), before sending in a larger formation to hold enemy territory. IMHO the initial wave of attacks can be carried out by elements that are high destructive power per soldier. Much later in the future this brunt can be borne by a robotic army. There will also be multiple advances to deceive & confuse the enemy.

All in all once the defensive cover of the enemy is broken even at one axis then that particular IBG can rapidly advance into heartland followed by more assets in the rear formations and cause mayhem or just hold onto a patch of enemy territory to prevent escalation to nuclear level. Big question here would be how much is not too much to invite a nuclear response.

India will have to have a very strong back end to the war which can process, analyse and make decisions based on realtime information streaming from the war.

I kind of like this doctrine because victory for the first attacker is a basic underlying assumption with rolling out this doctrine. The sticking point for me would be it assumes complete detachment from civilian heads of state and is more or less just a military doctrine, what happens when countries (US, China, middle east) pressurise India diplomatically and not unthinkable militarily. Will political leaders still have the stomach to carry on? Another factor to consider is how many body bags can the attacker withstand before his resolve to fight turns shaky. I am also assuming this will be a realtime war, realtime like twitter, not email. Kargil was speed post, 26/11 was email and this is the next gen of war.

Also what happens if all advancing elements are neutralised. Once star elements are eliminate will India task its defensive formations to carry on the struggle offensively?

For Pakistan the greatest defence will be to sign a well publicized defensive war treaty with China, which essentially states if India attacks either then both will attack in turn.

 

[ice_man]

I see, so the trick for India (coming from an arm chair soldier) will be to:

A. Seize initiative. Else losses are higher since if you dont plunder the enemy in time he can return the favour. The conventional threshold will have to be very low. Something like start of another 26/11. As soon as fundus call their handlers in Pakistan for directions. We can get busy with fixing blame later (for foreign Govt.'s consumption).
B. Make sure there is continuous tracking of all mobile military assets with the enemy and train conventional missiles in a state of readiness at fixed targets, which may be altered as required. This can be done via Indian military satellites and R&AW assets on the ground.
C. All of Pakistan has to be brought under conventional missile range.
D. IBGs have to be small enough & sufficiently dispersed to avoid providing lucrative targets to enemy missiles. Wherever there is a significant massing of men and machine will be under threat of cruise missile attack. This means India has to connect all its assets from soldier & tanks & helis etc. in the field to each other within an IBG and back to HQ for a realtime war to be effectively fought.

It is extremely crucial to disrupt coherence in the enemy, to lower threat to advancing columns. I suppose it will be better to attack in a smaller group first and neutralise enemy assets (something like sacrificial goats, but if more lives can be saved then why not), before sending in a larger formation to hold enemy territory. IMHO the initial wave of attacks can be carried out by elements that are high destructive power per soldier. Much later in the future this brunt can be borne by a robotic army. There will also be multiple advances to deceive & confuse the enemy.

All in all once the defensive cover of the enemy is broken even at one axis then that particular IBG can rapidly advance into heartland followed by more assets in the rear formations and cause mayhem or just hold onto a patch of enemy territory to prevent escalation to nuclear level. Big question here would be how much is not too much to invite a nuclear response.

India will have to have a very strong back end to the war which can process, analyse and make decisions based on realtime information streaming from the war.

I kind of like this doctrine because victory for the first attacker is a basic underlying assumption with rolling out this doctrine. The sticking point for me would be it assumes complete detachment from civilian heads of state and is more or less just a military doctrine, what happens when countries (US, China, middle east) pressurise India diplomatically and not unthinkable militarily. Will political leaders still have the stomach to carry on? Another factor to consider is how many body bags can the attacker withstand before his resolve to fight turns shaky. I am also assuming this will be a realtime war, realtime like twitter, not email. Kargil was speed post, 26/11 was email and this is the next gen of war.

Also what happens if all advancing elements are neutralised. Once star elements are eliminate will India task its defensive formations to carry on the struggle offensively?

For Pakistan the greatest defence will be to sign a well publicized defensive war treaty with China, which essentially states if India attacks either then both will attack in turn.

SPOKEN LIKE A TRUE Bharat Rakshak boy!!

well basically the BOLD area trust me son it happens only in Hollywood you are not that advanced to track every communication going on in pakistan no matter how hard you try!

red part tells me that i am correct you over estimate yourself!!

as for the blue highlighted part remember the 6th army and how the russians encircled them in WW2! well the deeper you come in the easier the panzer movement for us! BUT OFCOURSE being a BR boy you will discard that!

underlined part is impossible which makes your whole theory fall on its head!!

this is not 1914! no one makes axis or alliances in terms of military how it was before the first world war!

indians overestimate themselves! you guys think we will just sit back and watch you arm yourself and attack us!

if that was the case you would have attacked by now! however, your military generals are not as naive as you!

they know pakistan will respond and respond would be fierce!

 

[nakodo]

SPOKEN LIKE A TRUE Bharat Rakshak boy!!

Golly me, my cover is blown

well basically the BOLD area trust me son it happens only in Hollywood you are not that advanced to track every communication going on in pakistan no matter how hard you try!

What if there is no telecom network standing b4 the BG's step inside Pakistan?

red part tells me that i am correct you over estimate yourself!!

as for the blue highlighted part remember the 6th army and how the russians encircled them in WW2! well the deeper you come in the easier the panzer movement for us! BUT OFCOURSE being a BR boy you will discard that!

no i wont, but i see that Indian advance will have to spread Pakistan's resources thin.

underlined part is impossible which makes your whole theory fall on its head!!

When we can manage the back end for the world, why not a war?

this is not 1914! no one makes axis or alliances in terms of military how it was before the first world war!

that is Pakistan's problem

indians overestimate themselves! you guys think we will just sit back and watch you arm yourself and attack us!

no i factored in that you will have Chinese and donated/spiked US armaments.

if that was the case you would have attacked by now! however, your military generals are not as naive as you!

Only if it was in the hands of the Generals. We also have a civilian est. besides the commandos.

they know pakistan will respond and respond would be fierce!

they also know they will have to respond even more savagely, also must add the fact that geographically Pakistan is longer N-S than it is wider E-W, should be a disadvantage.