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India, Pakistan cannot sideline Kashmir: Mirwaiz

And you never will, the reason is a differene in opinion. You see it as terrorism and then you relate it with islam, however others see it as a freedom movement. Also the way you express the human rights violations done is kashmir gives readers the impression about how ignorant you are about the massive violations of human rights done by indian army.
The point is dialouge is done at a place where both parties agree that this is indeed a disputed terrority and needs a solution as per the resolutions of the UN, however what will happen if one party backs up and starts calling the disputed terrority as theirs. Pakistan on the other hand has never called AJK as theirs rather when we talk about kashmir we include the whole of it and not just indians. From your post it appears you put all the blame on the freedom movement(terrorism on your part) and competely sideline as to why such movements arose at the first place. The reason is india's stubborness to resolve the issue.



Although this post wasnt entitled to me, however i would suggest you to refrain from calling someones family members as terrorists. They maybe for you but for others they are freedom fighters, a matter of opinion.

Given that these are my post, they obviously reflect my opinions on the matter; and yes, all the people running around in Kashmir causing havoc under the banner of Islam are from my point of view terrorists. Having said that, I do not by default relate terrorism to "Islam"; having been born and raised in the Islamic world myself, I am well aware of the difference between Islam, Islamism and Islamist terrorism and identify them on a case by case basis whenever and wherever they apply. My point however is that when militancy is used to destabilize a region which then elicits a long drawn insurgency and counterinsurgency campaign human rights violations are imminent; I have as yet to see a case where this hasn't happened. However the blame lies with the party that started the violence; in this case, the terrorists. One can't be an ardent supporter of violent terrorism and still reserve the right to cry foul about heavy handed reprisals; it is unrealistic and makes a mockery of serious conflicts.
 
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Thank you for bringing my nationality and the accompanying prejudice into the picture..

Well as a indian are you not "prejudice" in you views on kashmir the same way a pakistani is going to be "prejudice" in his view over kashmir.
I was only saying that as an indian i do not expect you to say that you want a referendum in kashmir........if you knew you would win the vote in kashmir
there would be elections tommorow.

The PA cannot take Kashmir forcefully. 1965 is a case that cannot be overlooked .
ISI's insurgency did have a major impact on India's policy and international opinion. Post 9/11 the notion that "freedom fighters" are different from "terrorists" has few backers on the international arena. If Pakistan does manage to create (the Kashmiris are not as anti-India as you are assuming so any happening will be Pakistan's creation) a Hezbollah in Kashmir, its international standing will take a big hit..

If the kashmiris are not as anti indian as i think then i am sure in a free vote the would choose to join india...would they not.?
In 60 years the "international community" has not done a single thing to force india to accept the UN resolutions on kashmir.
Does Hezbollah or Hamas give a damn about the "international community" thinks....you gotta fight for your rights and freedoms.

What I really find surprising that some Pakistanis have still not realized the collateral damage that militia-running brings in their own country...

The people the GoP is fighting would have been armed to teeth even if there was not a single militia in the country.


J&K is a part of India; keep fighting in there and you will get the cold shoulder. Maintain the status quo and expect peace....

Maintaing the status quo means you have won the war in kashmir and the last 60 years of fighting was for nothing.
I think we will carry on fighting.......we dont have strong links economically,socially or politically and thats the best thing for pakistan.
You want us to forget about kashmir and be friends.....i say the same thing back......give the people in kashmir the rights under the UN annd then lets be friends........choice's.

AJK is a part of Pakistan; we have no qualms about that.

I wonder why the people in AJK are not fighting the GoP.....?



In a proxy-war, Kashmir-like situation human rights abuses are expected especially if one party (terrorists) is cowardly enough to not come out in the open and face the other (IA)..

Its classic guerilla tactics nothing to do with being cowardly.

Do not overlook the region's relative calm before the insurgency. Also do not overlook the excesses done by the terrorists...

Its own fault for letting the "insurgency" take place in the first place by rigging the elections in kashmir.



The IA is doing its bit to reduce human rights abuses by the troops; this, I agree, is not that adequate. But sooner or later the IA will correct its position....

With no indian army in kashmir there would be no abuses by the army...simple.

Take the fight to India, good one. Speaks volumes on what you wish on my people. The blasts in Bombay, Delhi, etc. have proved how pathetic these terrorists can get.

I was not talking about random bombings of civilians,which i totally agree are terrorist but more along the lines of what the pakistan taliban are doing to the pak govt......targeting the military and govt personnel.




"give india a taste of its own medicine"... tell that to my friend who lost his father in the train blasts. .

As i said before anybody attacking civilians is a terrorist.


"Your country is losing far more than us due to these freedom fighters/terrorists..

Its our own fault.......but it will get sorted out when nawaz comes into power.



Excellent hate mongering by the way..

I dont think i have been "hate mongering"......you want to keep kashmir and be friends i want kashmir to be free and then be friends.



The insurgency was pretty much in a limbo in 1996-1998. This is the reason why Kargil was initiated. Post Kargil things did went a bit rough, though not to the extent that they were in mid-1990s...

That what you think which is fair enough.
In my opinion if the taliban had held onto power there would have been a mass influx of battle hardened fighters into kashmir and the final phase of a military takeover would have been in the pipeline.

9/11 changed the game forever....

I agree but maybe not in the same way as you.

One more thing, we are not going to leave J&K; do whatever you can..

The only thing we can do is carry on fighting.


They never supported it; however, they were never so vehemently against the use of violence and terrorism.

I did not see any EU nations pushing the UN on the kashmir struggle.
 
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Well as a indian are you not "prejudice" in you views on kashmir the same way a pakistani is going to be "prejudice" in his view over kashmir.
I was only saying that as an indian i do not expect you to say that you want a referendum in kashmir........if you knew you would win the vote in kashmir
there would be elections tommorow.

This is the primary difference between you and me. I do not expect every Pakistani to have the same views on this issue.

There are elections held for state assemblies; all political parties contest these. The state of J&K is the only one in India to have its own constitution and flag. Hard-line pro-independence and pro-Pakistan political parties also contest these elections; these, however, have failed to achieve a majority in the state assembly (I wonder why?) The elections in Jammu & Kashmir (why forget Jammu) are subject to certain steps which both India and Pakistan have refused to undertake; both are basically passing the buck.

If the kashmiris are not as anti indian as i think then i am sure in a free vote the would choose to join india...would they not.?

Why should we conduct those elections unilaterally? As I’ve said before, both India and Pakistan are doing nothing but passing the buck. The Indian part of the state of Jammu & Kashmir is a part of my country and I do not see any need to hold “special elections” there.

In 60 years the "international community" has not done a single thing to force india to accept the UN resolutions on kashmir.

In 60 years, has the international community done anything to force Pakistan to accept the UN resolution on Kashmir? No; why would they? They have better things to do in life.

Does Hezbollah or Hamas give a damn about the "international community" thinks....you gotta fight for your rights and freedoms.

So you expect Pakistan to stoop down to the level of Hezbollah or Hamas?

If you want to fight, go fight yourself. Stop hate-mongering while you are sitting comfortably in a decent house.

The people the GoP is fighting would have been armed to teeth even if there was not a single militia in the country.

These “Kashmiri movements” were created and fostered by Pakistan. Without GoP’s support, they won’t be able to do squat against India.

Now of course, it is a different story. These militias not only wreck our writ in Jammu & Kashmir, they also wreck havoc inside Pakistan. Wonder why don’t you see that?

Maintaing the status quo means you have won the war in kashmir and the last 60 years of fighting was for nothing.

You call the last 60 years a fight? Except for a few intense combat scenarios (1947-1948, 1965, 1971, Kargil, Siachen) the region has seen a low-to-mid level insurgency. It’s more police work than a fight.

We are very happy with the status quo and would like to maintain it. Pakistan has had problems with it.

I think we will carry on fighting.......we dont have strong links economically,socially or politically and thats the best thing for pakistan.
You want us to forget about kashmir and be friends.....i say the same thing back......give the people in kashmir the rights under the UN annd then lets be friends........choice's.

Pakistan wants to annex Jammu & Kashmir; please stop denying that. I expect your country to accept the status quo and move on with life. 60 years has done nothing to change the status quo; please learn something from this.

I wonder why the people in AJK are not fighting the GoP.....?

May be they are, who knows?

Its classic guerilla tactics nothing to do with being cowardly.

Guerrilla warfare is very different from what is happening in Jammu & Kashmir, nothing but low-level low-IQ terrorism.

Its own fault for letting the "insurgency" take place in the first place by rigging the elections in kashmir.

That I agree that the elections were rigged in Jammu & Kashmir; this is GoI’s greatest mistake. I doubt the insurgency could be solely attributed to those elections.

With no indian army in kashmir there would be no abuses by the army...simple.

With no Indian Army in Kashmir, foreign insurgents would be back firing Kalashnikov’s in the air. Abuses have been done by insurgents and IA alike.

I was not talking about random bombings of civilians,which i totally agree are terrorist but more along the lines of what the pakistan taliban are doing to the pak govt......targeting the military and govt personnel.

Wonder what Pakistani members of this forum have to say about this.

As i said before anybody attacking civilians is a terrorist.

Good.

Its our own fault.......but it will get sorted out when nawaz comes into power.

Please see the reality; your country is paying a heavy price for militia-running.

I dont think i have been "hate mongering"......you want to keep kashmir and be friends i want kashmir to be free and then be friends.

Your posts speak for themselves.

We are not going to part with our part of Jammu & Kashmir.

That what you think which is fair enough.
In my opinion if the taliban had held onto power there would have been a mass influx of battle hardened fighters into kashmir and the final phase of a military takeover would have been in the pipeline.

These battle-hardened fighters don’t stand a chance of doing anything remarkable in front of a professional army.

What you are saying is wishful thinking.

I agree but maybe not in the same way as you.

Please explain your views in detail.

The only thing we can do is carry on fighting.

First act and then preach.

I did not see any EU nations pushing the UN on the kashmir struggle.

Please wake up to reality.
 
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As soon as Indian gund stop spitting fire and as soon as Indian soldiers stop Innocent Kashmiris and as soon as Indian soldiers stop raping innocent Kashmiri women

As soon as Indian forces stop spitting fire- Against terrorists?? Let them come in the open and face the Indian army...they like cowards sit adminst the population and hit from behind!!! Sorry, they need no mercy.

As soon as Indian soldiers stop Innocent Kashmiris-: From doing what??
Writing newspapers?? Voting??? Contesting in elections?? from right to Justice??
As soon as Indian soldiers stop what?

Indian soldiers stop raping innocent Kashmiri women- The same old crap, have the Indian soldiers no other job than just to go-on raping people??

Alright Jana, just tell me what human rights really is..I mean..what are Human rights..can you describe some human rights??
 
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Alright Jana, just tell me what human rights really is..I mean..what are Human rights..can you describe some human rights??

Good one that! :)

I presume some feel human rights means when things go their way, then human rights are being upheld.
 
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Although this post wasnt entitled to me, however i would suggest you to refrain from calling someones family members as terrorists. They maybe for you but for others they are freedom fighters, a matter of opinion.
He has said himself that some of his family have been part of the insurgency in Kashmir.
Indians have as much a right to call them terrorists as you (think) have to call them freedom fighters.
They have killed my countrymen, so I will call them terrorists.
If someone has a problem with that let them.
 
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How?

Could you amplify?

Or is it just rhetorical just to conform to a ''reply''?

Demonstrators were protesting against the killing of five civilians they say Indian troops used as human shields during an operation against militants.
The demonstrations took place in the town of Bandipora, 60km from Srinagar.
Local residents say the civilians who died were captured by troops from a village near Bandipora on Friday.
They say the troops used them as human shields during an operation against militants near the village of Chhattibanbi.
BBC NEWS | South Asia | Kashmir 'shield' dead spark demos


SRINAGAR (IHK): In occupied Kashmir, the Indian troops used two civilians as human shield during military crackdown, who were killed in military mortar firing in Bandipora.

Residents told media men in Srinagar said that Indian army Lt. Col. Chauhan entered the house of Saif-ud-din Shah early Friday morning along with two locals Aabid Hussain Shah, and Manzoor Ahmed Dar.

They said that heavy mortar shells were fired at the building later and four bodies were recovered from the debris. Two of them, identified as Aabid and Manzoor were used as human shields by troops," they said.
Pakistan Times | Kashmir: Civilians used as human shield in India held-Kashmir

Lets me guess .....they where a few bad apples and full investigation was carried out that cleared the army..?


Or is it just rhetorical just to conform to a ''reply''.......thats a indian trait not a pakistani one,
 
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dabong1

It is easy for the media to call them as human shields. And is it something usual for the "they say"
people to grumble and protest?

For identification, the locals must have taken with the search party as also as witnesses since it is all so easy to claim all sorts of atrocities thereafter! By taking them along, these "they say" types have converted it to "human shields'. If they were not taken, then the "they say" could have conveniently be turned into molestation and rape!!

Could being gullible also be taken as a national trait, since you raise such stuff into national traits?
 
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He has said himself that some of his family have been part of the insurgency in Kashmir.
Indians have as much a right to call them terrorists as you (think) have to call them freedom fighters.
They have killed my countrymen, so I will call them terrorists.
If someone has a problem with that let them.

Watch it. They may be terrorists for you, but for others they might be freedom fighter, like i said a matter of opinion but lets not forget we are mentioning someones family members here. So lets not get carried away and rather stick to the topic.
 
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There are elections held for state assemblies; all political parties contest these. The state of J&K is the only one in India to have its own constitution and flag. Hard-line pro-independence and pro-Pakistan political parties also contest these elections; these, however, have failed to achieve a majority in the state assembly (I wonder why?) The elections in Jammu & Kashmir (why forget Jammu) are subject to certain steps which both India and Pakistan have refused to undertake; both are basically passing the buck.
The Indian part of the state of Jammu & Kashmir is a part of my country and I do not see any need to hold “special elections” there.


"That I agree that the elections were rigged in Jammu & Kashmir; this is GoI’s greatest mistake. I doubt the insurgency could be solely attributed to those elections."

B.K. Nehru, who was Governor of Kashmir from 1981 to 1984, in his memoirs published in 1997.
From 1953 to 1975, Chief Ministers of that State [of J&K] had been nominees of Delhi. Their appointment to that post was legitimised by the holding of farcical and totally rigged elections in which the Congress party led by Delhi's nominee was elected by huge majorities."


I find it strange that you acknowlege that the elections in kashmir have been rigged and then you wonder why "pro-Pakistan political parties also contest these elections; these, however, have failed to achieve a majority in the state assembly (I wonder why?)"................the elections where rigged thats why!



So you expect Pakistan to stoop down to the level of Hezbollah or Hamas?
These battle-hardened fighters don’t stand a chance of doing anything remarkable in front of a professional army.

The kashmiri have to work hard to achieve the heights that Hezbollah or Hamas achieved against the isaeli army.........The israeli "professional army" got a bloody nose fighting Hezbollah.


We are very happy with the status quo and would like to maintain it. Pakistan has had problems with it.
Pakistan wants to annex Jammu & Kashmir; please stop denying that. I expect your country to accept the status quo and move on with life. 60 years has done nothing to change the status quo; please learn something from this..

Pakistan wants an election under the UN in kashmir to see what the people want.
The status quo will mean more death and destruction.



Abuses have been done by insurgents and IA alike...

I agree.......how do we end it..?
You want to keep the status quo and i want a UN election............



Article 370: Autonomy or Erosion of Rights?

In 1949, the Indian Constituent Assembly adopted Article 370 of the Constitution, ensuring a special status and internal autonomy for Jammu and Kashmir with Indian jurisdiction in Kashmir limited to the three areas namely defence, foreign affairs and communications. This was confirmed by Abdullah in 1952 Delhi Agreement and the State was allowed to have its own flag.

Much has been made out of this allegedly special status for J&K with the Hindu Right demanding abrogation of Article 370. In reality, Article 370 which was envisioned as a temporary measure till self-determination, has been seriously eroded with the collusion of local puppet Ministers installed in rigged elections, by extending various articles like 356 and 357 to the State, by virtue of which the Centre can assume the government of the State and exercise its legislative powers. Today, Kashmiris are worse off than people in other States in many respects[11]- having been denied self-determination, Article 370 eroded and repressive acts such as Armed Forces Special Powers Act which lead to arbitrary arrests, torture and killing of thousands of innocent civilians.

Such trampling of democratic rights planted the seeds of a second wave of Kashmiri Nationalism ? Jammu and Kashmir National Liberation Front (NLF) was founded by Amanulla Khan and Maqbool Butt in the late sixties, which would later become JKLF and would play a major role in the 1989 insurgency.

1989: Popular Insurgency or Terrorist movement?

With the rising discontent against the Indian Rule ? long promised and denied self-determination, erosion of autonomy, consistently rigged elections and lack of employment opportunities ? the 1987 rigged election was a watershed event in the Kashmiri politics. The Muslim United Front(MUF) candidate Mohammad Yousuf Shah was imprisoned though he was on the lead and he would later become Syed Salahuddin, chief of militant outfit Hizb-ul-Mujahedin (Hizb). His election aides (known as the HAJY group) - Abdul Hamid Shaikh, Ashfaq Majid Wani, Javed Ahmed Mir and Mohammed Yasin Malik - became disenchanted with the electoral farce and joined the JKLF.

Thousands of young disaffected Kashmiris in the Valley were recruited by the JKLF and a full-fledged Freedom Movement against the Indian Rule began in 1989. The insurgency was not only militant but also popular - Hundreds of thousands of unarmed people marched on the streets of Srinagar between January and May 1990 demanding a plebiscite. This popular insurgency was brutally handled by the hardline Governor Jagmohan by firing indiscriminately at unarmed demonstrators. An officially estimated 10,000 desperate Kashmiri youth crossed over to Pakistan for training and procurement of arms.[12]

What was Pakistan's Role?

Pakistan has long held the resentment that Kashmir, which rightfully belonged to it as a Muslim majority State, was snatched from right under its nose by a clever India. Hence Pakistan has invaded Kashmir/India and gone to war four times over Kashmir in 1947, 1965(Operation Gibraltar), 1971 and 1999(Kargil). Pakistan had hoped that Kashmiris would rise against the Indian Rule in 1965 following Operation Gibraltar, but that did not happen. Thus, when a full-blown indigenous insurgency erupted in 1989, Pakistan was only too happy to take advantage of the golden opportunity and would fuel the insurgency enormously by supplying arms and training Kashmiri and foreign militants[13].

The pro-independence JKLF had a secular agenda and this was not to be tolerated. After all, Pakistan has not been too keen on the independence option and would love to have Kashmir to be part of Pakistan and thus backed the Hizb which favoured accession to Pakistan and played a role in decimating the JKLF by cutting off financing and in some instances provided intelligence to India against JKLF(!) . JKLF eventually declared a ceasefire in 1994 and remains a political group. Militant groups with Islamic agenda would proliferate through the nineties and have eventually hijacked the indigenous Kashmiri movement. Today, roughly the indigenous Kashmiri fighters account for only one-third of the total number of militants[14].

Is the Kashmiri Movement communal?

The Kashmiri Freedom movement is often portrayed as a communal movement where Kashmiri Muslims are pitted against the Hindus, but this is far from true. There is a rich tradition of Kashmiriyat - a composite cultural identity with the glorious traditions of communal amity, tolerance and compassion - in the Valley dating back several centuries.

In fact, when communal holocaust had been raging in Jammu, Kapurthala and elsewhere in India in 1947, Kashmir Valley was quiet and 5% Pandit minority totally safe. In 1990, when Pandits felt insecure given the killings of innocent community members, secular JKLF tried to explain that the killings of prominent Pandits were not communal but merely for political reasons like media bias and sentencing of Maqbool Butt. Kashmiris came out in large numbers and demonstrated in support of their Pandit brethren as they still do every time innocent Hindus are killed, as witnessed in the 2003 massacre at Nadimarg[19]. There have been instances of Muslims helping build temples for Hindus- an example being the village of Ichhigam in Budgam.

What is clear is that Kashmiri civilians are not communal by and large and Kashmiriyat continues to flourish. What is not clear is: who are these communal forces which target minority Hindus periodically? It could be jihadi militants with an Islamic agenda; It could be Indian sponsored renegades to communalize the conflict. Opinion remains divided. Only an independent investigation by an impartial agency can reveal the true identity of these killers. Kashmiris have repeatedly demanded inquiry into these killings by unidentified gunmen and it continues to be ignored.

Is there a solution?

India continues to insist that the accession of Kashmir to India is final and complete; Till recently, Pakistan had insisted on the implementation of UN resolutions- a unitary plebiscite for the whole of J&K; Musharraf broke ranks recently going so far to state that Pakistan is willing to give up its territorial claim on Kashmir provided certain conditions are met, but he faces intense hostility from hardline Islamists in his country. Kashmiris are alienated from both countries given brutal repression by India and violence by pro-Pakistan militants. Is there a solution to this seemingly intractable issue?

One reason why previous efforts to solve the problem have failed is this: India and Pakistan have not included Kashmiris as a legitimate party in tripartite unconditional dialogues. The evolving consensus opinion is that UN resolutions are out-dated, since the dispute has evolved into tripartite. That other regional solutions should be considered given that various regions in Kashmir have evolved independently since 1947 and that the conflict is restricted to the Kashmir Valley whose area is less than 16% of the total area of Indian controlled J&K.

One compromise regional solution which could potentially work was proposed by eminent historian Alastair Lamb in 1998 called Andorran Solution and a similar variant was proposed by the Kashmir Study Group[20]. Following the well established precedent of Andorra on the border between France and Spain, both Azad Kashmir and the Kashmir Valley could be declared as autonomous regions with its internal self-government but with its external defence and foreign affairs controlled jointly by India and Pakistan. Major advantage of this Andorran solution: No territory under Indian control would be transferred to Pakistan and no territory under Pakistani control would be transferred to India. Existing LoC will become the border. India retains Jammu and Ladakh, Pakistan retains
Kashmir: Terrorism Or Freedom Movement? By Akhila Raman
 
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"That I agree that the elections were rigged in Jammu & Kashmir; this is GoI’s greatest mistake. I doubt the insurgency could be solely attributed to those elections."

B.K. Nehru, who was Governor of Kashmir from 1981 to 1984, in his memoirs published in 1997.
From 1953 to 1975, Chief Ministers of that State [of J&K] had been nominees of Delhi. Their appointment to that post was legitimised by the holding of farcical and totally rigged elections in which the Congress party led by Delhi's nominee was elected by huge majorities."


I find it strange that you acknowlege that the elections in kashmir have been rigged and then you wonder why "pro-Pakistan political parties also contest these elections; these, however, have failed to achieve a majority in the state assembly (I wonder why?)"................the elections where rigged thats why!

Again you jump the gun; I said the elections in the 1980s were rigged. The elections since the mid-1990s have been fair.

The kashmiri have to work hard to achieve the heights that Hezbollah or Hamas achieved against the isaeli army.........The israeli "professional army" got a bloody nose fighting Hezbollah.

Most citizens of the state of Jammu & Kashmir would rather stay away with this "struggle." This is the primary difference between the "Kashmir 'thing'" and "Palestine 'struggle'." The citizens of the Indian side of Jammu & Kashmir enjoy far more freedom and autonomy and rights and opportunities than Palestinians.

The citizens of the Indian side of Jammu & Kashmir have no intent to struggle; you want them to develop an intent.

Hezbollah "won" simply by managing to "stay alive in a coma."

Pakistan wants an election under the UN in kashmir to see what the people want.

Pakistan wants/hopes that Jammu & Kashmir will join it if the elections are allowed. Pakistan's actions with regard to the Northern Areas speak for themselves.

Neither Pakistan nor India want to abide by the pre-election protocols that are mandatorized by the UN.

The status quo will mean more death and destruction.

So, more Indians and Pakistanis should die; you still don't agree that this is hate-mongering?

I agree.......how do we end it..?
You want to keep the status quo and i want a UN election............

Good question; first step should be an analysis of the solutions that do not work (insurgency, wars, religion-based violence, etc).

By the way, I want the LoC to be made into the IB.

Article 370: Autonomy or Erosion of Rights?

In 1949, the Indian Constituent Assembly adopted Article 370 of the Constitution, ensuring a special status and internal autonomy for Jammu and Kashmir with Indian jurisdiction in Kashmir limited to the three areas namely defence, foreign affairs and communications. This was confirmed by Abdullah in 1952 Delhi Agreement and the State was allowed to have its own flag.

Much has been made out of this allegedly special status for J&K with the Hindu Right demanding abrogation of Article 370. In reality, Article 370 which was envisioned as a temporary measure till self-determination, has been seriously eroded with the collusion of local puppet Ministers installed in rigged elections, by extending various articles like 356 and 357 to the State, by virtue of which the Centre can assume the government of the State and exercise its legislative powers. Today, Kashmiris are worse off than people in other States in many respects[11]- having been denied self-determination, Article 370 eroded and repressive acts such as Armed Forces Special Powers Act which lead to arbitrary arrests, torture and killing of thousands of innocent civilians.

Such trampling of democratic rights planted the seeds of a second wave of Kashmiri Nationalism ? Jammu and Kashmir National Liberation Front (NLF) was founded by Amanulla Khan and Maqbool Butt in the late sixties, which would later become JKLF and would play a major role in the 1989 insurgency.

1989: Popular Insurgency or Terrorist movement?

With the rising discontent against the Indian Rule ? long promised and denied self-determination, erosion of autonomy, consistently rigged elections and lack of employment opportunities ? the 1987 rigged election was a watershed event in the Kashmiri politics. The Muslim United Front(MUF) candidate Mohammad Yousuf Shah was imprisoned though he was on the lead and he would later become Syed Salahuddin, chief of militant outfit Hizb-ul-Mujahedin (Hizb). His election aides (known as the HAJY group) - Abdul Hamid Shaikh, Ashfaq Majid Wani, Javed Ahmed Mir and Mohammed Yasin Malik - became disenchanted with the electoral farce and joined the JKLF.

Thousands of young disaffected Kashmiris in the Valley were recruited by the JKLF and a full-fledged Freedom Movement against the Indian Rule began in 1989. The insurgency was not only militant but also popular - Hundreds of thousands of unarmed people marched on the streets of Srinagar between January and May 1990 demanding a plebiscite. This popular insurgency was brutally handled by the hardline Governor Jagmohan by firing indiscriminately at unarmed demonstrators. An officially estimated 10,000 desperate Kashmiri youth crossed over to Pakistan for training and procurement of arms.[12]

What was Pakistan's Role?

Pakistan has long held the resentment that Kashmir, which rightfully belonged to it as a Muslim majority State, was snatched from right under its nose by a clever India. Hence Pakistan has invaded Kashmir/India and gone to war four times over Kashmir in 1947, 1965(Operation Gibraltar), 1971 and 1999(Kargil). Pakistan had hoped that Kashmiris would rise against the Indian Rule in 1965 following Operation Gibraltar, but that did not happen. Thus, when a full-blown indigenous insurgency erupted in 1989, Pakistan was only too happy to take advantage of the golden opportunity and would fuel the insurgency enormously by supplying arms and training Kashmiri and foreign militants[13].

The pro-independence JKLF had a secular agenda and this was not to be tolerated. After all, Pakistan has not been too keen on the independence option and would love to have Kashmir to be part of Pakistan and thus backed the Hizb which favoured accession to Pakistan and played a role in decimating the JKLF by cutting off financing and in some instances provided intelligence to India against JKLF(!) . JKLF eventually declared a ceasefire in 1994 and remains a political group. Militant groups with Islamic agenda would proliferate through the nineties and have eventually hijacked the indigenous Kashmiri movement. Today, roughly the indigenous Kashmiri fighters account for only one-third of the total number of militants[14].

Is the Kashmiri Movement communal?

The Kashmiri Freedom movement is often portrayed as a communal movement where Kashmiri Muslims are pitted against the Hindus, but this is far from true. There is a rich tradition of Kashmiriyat - a composite cultural identity with the glorious traditions of communal amity, tolerance and compassion - in the Valley dating back several centuries.

In fact, when communal holocaust had been raging in Jammu, Kapurthala and elsewhere in India in 1947, Kashmir Valley was quiet and 5% Pandit minority totally safe. In 1990, when Pandits felt insecure given the killings of innocent community members, secular JKLF tried to explain that the killings of prominent Pandits were not communal but merely for political reasons like media bias and sentencing of Maqbool Butt. Kashmiris came out in large numbers and demonstrated in support of their Pandit brethren as they still do every time innocent Hindus are killed, as witnessed in the 2003 massacre at Nadimarg[19]. There have been instances of Muslims helping build temples for Hindus- an example being the village of Ichhigam in Budgam.

What is clear is that Kashmiri civilians are not communal by and large and Kashmiriyat continues to flourish. What is not clear is: who are these communal forces which target minority Hindus periodically? It could be jihadi militants with an Islamic agenda; It could be Indian sponsored renegades to communalize the conflict. Opinion remains divided. Only an independent investigation by an impartial agency can reveal the true identity of these killers. Kashmiris have repeatedly demanded inquiry into these killings by unidentified gunmen and it continues to be ignored.

Is there a solution?

India continues to insist that the accession of Kashmir to India is final and complete; Till recently, Pakistan had insisted on the implementation of UN resolutions- a unitary plebiscite for the whole of J&K; Musharraf broke ranks recently going so far to state that Pakistan is willing to give up its territorial claim on Kashmir provided certain conditions are met, but he faces intense hostility from hardline Islamists in his country. Kashmiris are alienated from both countries given brutal repression by India and violence by pro-Pakistan militants. Is there a solution to this seemingly intractable issue?

One reason why previous efforts to solve the problem have failed is this: India and Pakistan have not included Kashmiris as a legitimate party in tripartite unconditional dialogues. The evolving consensus opinion is that UN resolutions are out-dated, since the dispute has evolved into tripartite. That other regional solutions should be considered given that various regions in Kashmir have evolved independently since 1947 and that the conflict is restricted to the Kashmir Valley whose area is less than 16% of the total area of Indian controlled J&K.

One compromise regional solution which could potentially work was proposed by eminent historian Alastair Lamb in 1998 called Andorran Solution and a similar variant was proposed by the Kashmir Study Group[20]. Following the well established precedent of Andorra on the border between France and Spain, both Azad Kashmir and the Kashmir Valley could be declared as autonomous regions with its internal self-government but with its external defence and foreign affairs controlled jointly by India and Pakistan. Major advantage of this Andorran solution: No territory under Indian control would be transferred to Pakistan and no territory under Pakistani control would be transferred to India. Existing LoC will become the border. India retains Jammu and Ladakh, Pakistan retains
Kashmir: Terrorism Or Freedom Movement? By Akhila Raman

What the author has conveniently forgotten is that the Armed Forces Special Powers Act was implemented because there was no way in hell the IA would have been able to deal with the insurgency otherwise without incurring massive casualities. The implementation of this Act did backfire and the IA has learnt its lessons.

Further, why is it that the pre-insurgency history of the Indian side of Jammu & Kashmir is so conveniently forgotten? Why is it forgotten that this "struggle" has a significant foreign hand?

I've always maintained that the citizens of the Indian side of Jammu & Kashmir are Indians; Article 370 has to go.

The citizens of the the Indian side of Jammu & Kashmir are "worse off" (in some aspects) due to the pathetic security situation in the region and the Article 370; both of these deter economic growth.
 
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Again you jump the gun; I said the elections in the 1980s were rigged. The elections since the mid-1990s have been fair..

The fact that every single Assembly election in J&K since 1951 till date has been rigged(with the possible exceptions of 1977 and 2002 which were relatively free and fair. Even they have been marred by allegations of rigging and coercion) has been meticulously documented by reputed Kashmiri activists like Prem Nath Bazaz.
Kashmir: Terrorism Or Freedom Movement? By Akhila Raman


Most citizens of the state of Jammu & Kashmir would rather stay away with this "struggle." This is the primary difference between the "Kashmir 'thing'" and "Palestine 'struggle'." The citizens of the Indian side of Jammu & Kashmir enjoy far more freedom and autonomy and rights and opportunities than Palestinians.
The citizens of the Indian side of Jammu & Kashmir have no intent to struggle; you want them to develop an intent...

As i said before ,if your so sure that the kashmiris want to be indian then why not hold an election to find out......after all you are the "biggest democracy" are you not......and the kashmiris are going to vote to join india are they not..? considering it has been so generous and loving to kashmiris.


Hezbollah "won" simply by managing to "stay alive in a coma."..

:cheesy:


Pakistan wants/hopes that Jammu & Kashmir will join it if the elections are allowed..

Off course pakistan hopes and wants kashmir to join it.......the same way india would want kashmir to join india.
Have an election and find out..!
Will the pro indian kashmiri parties win....?
Will the pro pakistan parties win ...?
Will the independence parties win...?
We will never know until election are held under the UN.



Pakistan's actions with regard to the Northern Areas speak for themselves...

Like killing 50/80'000 people and using state terror on the people......sorry thats india in kashmir.

Neither Pakistan nor India want to abide by the pre-election protocols that are mandatorized by the UN....

India does not want to abide by anything on kashmir.
Nehru promised the Kashmiri people in a famous speech at Lal Chowk in Srinagar that their wishes would be consulted in a plebiscite or referendum regarding the future of J&K. Naturally he was confident that the popular leader Sheikh Abdullah would be helpful in convincing his people to choose India in a plebiscite to be held in future and thus his beloved Vale would remain the Jewel in the Indian Crown. He would repeat this promise time and again in various speeches from 1947-1951 and the 1948 Indian White Paper clearly records that the accession of Kashmir to India is provisional until such time as the will of the people(self-determination) of the State could be ascertained by a plebiscite.

The day you govt goes to the UN and says they want to go along with what the UN has said on the kashmir struugle, like pakistan does ,then there might be some truth in what you say.



So, more Indians and Pakistanis should die; you still don't agree that this is hate-mongering?....

The reason people are dying is becauce you have a half million man army there.
Are you not the one that is "hate-mongering" by not backing the wishes of the people of kashmir,the UN and going against what Nehru promised.



Good question; first step should be an analysis of the solutions that do not work (insurgency, wars, religion-based violence, etc).?....


I agree lets look at what has not worked so far......half a million man army....state terror.....rape,torture,staged killings ect.

By the way, I want the LoC to be made into the IB.).....

And i want kashmir to be part of pakistan.




Further, why is it that the pre-insurgency history of the Indian side of Jammu & Kashmir is so conveniently forgotten? Why is it forgotten that this "struggle" has a significant foreign hand?

Trampling of democratic rights planted the seeds of a second wave of Kashmiri Nationalism ? Jammu and Kashmir National Liberation Front (NLF) was founded by Amanulla Khan and Maqbool Butt in the late sixties, which would later become JKLF and would play a major role in the 1989 insurgency.

With the rising discontent against the Indian Rule ? long promised and denied self-determination, erosion of autonomy, consistently rigged elections and lack of employment opportunities ? the 1987 rigged election was a watershed event in the Kashmiri politics. The Muslim United Front(MUF) candidate Mohammad Yousuf Shah was imprisoned though he was on the lead and he would later become Syed Salahuddin, chief of militant outfit Hizb-ul-Mujahedin (Hizb). His election aides (known as the HAJY group) - Abdul Hamid Shaikh, Ashfaq Majid Wani, Javed Ahmed Mir and Mohammed Yasin Malik - became disenchanted with the electoral farce and joined the JKLF.

Thousands of young disaffected Kashmiris in the Valley were recruited by the JKLF and a full-fledged Freedom Movement against the Indian Rule began in 1989. The insurgency was not only militant but also popular - Hundreds of thousands of unarmed people marched on the streets of Srinagar between January and May 1990 demanding a plebiscite. This popular insurgency was brutally handled by the hardline Governor Jagmohan by firing indiscriminately at unarmed demonstrators. An officially estimated 10,000 desperate Kashmiri youth crossed over to Pakistan for training and procurement of arms.

What was Pakistan's Role?

Pakistan has long held the resentment that Kashmir, which rightfully belonged to it as a Muslim majority State, was snatched from right under its nose by a clever India. Hence Pakistan has invaded Kashmir/India and gone to war four times over Kashmir in 1947, 1965(Operation Gibraltar), 1971 and 1999(Kargil). Pakistan had hoped that Kashmiris would rise against the Indian Rule in 1965 following Operation Gibraltar, but that did not happen. Thus, when a full-blown indigenous insurgency erupted in 1989, Pakistan was only too happy to take advantage of the golden opportunity and would fuel the insurgency enormously by supplying arms and training Kashmiri and foreign militants.

The pro-independence JKLF had a secular agenda and this was not to be tolerated. After all, Pakistan has not been too keen on the independence option and would love to have Kashmir to be part of Pakistan and thus backed the Hizb which favoured accession to Pakistan and played a role in decimating the JKLF by cutting off financing and in some instances provided intelligence to India against JKLF(!) . JKLF eventually declared a ceasefire in 1994 and remains a political group. Militant groups with Islamic agenda would proliferate through the nineties and have eventually taken over the secular Kashmiri movement.
Kashmir: Terrorism Or Freedom Movement? By Akhila Raman
 
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