India Outlines New Carrier Ambitions

[ayesha.a]

The reactor is not Chernobyl sized.

Correct, but the ocean currents can carry the nuclear material a long way.

 

[$@rJen]

In worst case... IN is most pragmatic organization. IN will go with Desi bird. IN is pushing hard for N-LCA.. IN will push hard for Desi 5th gen Naval fighetr for IAC-II


In worst case IN will go for shopping...

N-LCA on IAC-II is ging to be a Big Joke.... and you're forgetting US... they are not just going to give you EMALS and shake your hand.. you want EMALS then take F-35 along with it..

There's no choice for IN to opt planes for IAC-II if IN chooses to go with EMALS,. F-35C it is

 

[anant_s]

Rafale is 4.5 genration fighter aircraft, F 35 is better in my view.

It is matter of taking call.
If IN goes for F 35, there could be implications for FGFA program (in terms of budget) and also we'll have to buy them off the shelf, which contradicts current government's Make in India program.
But here if it is a question of making a choice between N Rafale and F 35 (assuming they cost more or less the same), F 35 is obviously a wise decision considering Rafale are also proposed to be purchased off the Shelf in future. Besides it looks like US might be pushing a package deal consisting of fighters, AWACS, Launch and weapon systems.
Off late India (a far as navy is concerned) has put great deal of confidence on US systems (P8I for example and its interest in E2D), so it shouldn't come as a surprise if what we are discussing might actually turn out to be a reality. & given how brilliantly US has fulfilled all the defence contracts till date, i'm in favor of such deals.
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Not many countries are planing for large scale ACs ( US, China, India and perhaps Brazil) for future. Thus development of a costly EMALS technology might be prohibitively expensive unless sufficient orders are placed for such a system. IMHO this could be one reason why US is willing to offer the system to India, which has long term plans for atleast 3 more ACs after IAC 1.

 

[Skywalker]

How dare he insult a Chinese, by calling him a Pakistani!


Radioactive material in the ocean would affect every country in the region. Pakistanis can say goodbye to seafood, and will have to build several cancer hospitals in Karachi.

Keep burning ......looks like your constipation is getting worst as you can't open eyes because of the pain your arse.

How dare he insult a Chinese, by calling him a Pakistani!


Radioactive material in the ocean would affect every country in the region. Pakistanis can say goodbye to seafood, and will have to build several cancer hospitals in Karachi.

Yes only Pakistanies will suffer Indians can get pure hygiene from Ganga and jamna, after all you love the filth anyway.

 

[saurav]

Will need too much money. If economy grows >7% for next 6-7 years, then only can we hope for such a carrier.

Armed forces have much more different pressing needs which are yet to be cleared because of money.

 

[Srinivas]

It is matter of taking call.
If IN goes for F 35, there could be implications for FGFA program (in terms of budget) and also we'll have to buy them off the shelf, which contradicts current government's Make in India program.
But here if it is a question of making a choice between N Rafale and F 35 (assuming they cost more or less the same), F 35 is obviously a wise decision considering Rafale are also proposed to be purchased off the Shelf in future. Besides it looks like US might be pushing a package deal consisting of fighters, AWACS, Launch and weapon systems.
Off late India (a far as navy is concerned) has put great deal of confidence on US systems (P8I for example and its interest in E2D), so it shouldn't come as a surprise if what we are discussing might actually turn out to be a reality. & given how brilliantly US has fulfilled all the defence contracts till date, i'm in favor of such deals.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not many countries are planing for large scale ACs ( US, China, India and perhaps Brazil) for future. Thus development of a costly EMALS technology might be prohibitively expensive unless sufficient orders are placed for such a system. IMHO this could be one reason why US is willing to offer the system to India, which has long term plans for atleast 3 more ACs after IAC 1.

IN, IAF and MOD needs to take a call keeping in mind the logistics as well.

Even with US systems "Make in India" comes into picture. In future India needs 5 to 6 CBGs considering 2 will be always in maintenance.

FGFA is still under development, PAK FA and FGFA are almost decade away for induction, by that time AMCA will make its test flights.

In my view we need to get the best tech available out there and build our own systems.

Rafale navy is expensive, buying 36 Rafales with out tech transfer is also not a good decision. We should have gone for F 35's for navy and airforce.

and fill the remaining gaps with mig 29s and LCAs.

AMCA is a crucial for IAF as well as IN, US is willing to co operate in engine and other tech. for AMCA.

 

[anant_s]

In future India needs 5 to 6 CBGs considering 2 will be always in maintenance.

Well assuming there are 5 ACs and no more MiG 29Ks are inducted from here on, taking about 40-45 fighters on average per AC that works out to about 200-220 fixed wing aircraft fleet. If we further break this number in 33:66 ratio (foreign to N LCA) (I understand this isn't a correct assumption as large ACs allow to field heavier fighters and use of a light fighter such as N LCA on a large AC with steam or electrical catapult facility means under utilization of capability), the number works out to about 80-100 imported fighters (about 5 squadrons), and it would really be worthwhile to go for a fifth generation fighter here.

Rafale navy is expensive, buying 36 Rafales with out tech transfer is also not a good decision. We should have gone for F 35's for navy and airforce.

F 35 might also give a sort of cover (again assuming cost of F 35 and Rafale is nearly the same), should government look beyond Rafale or FGFA timeline slip ups.
It really is a matter of taking a gut call (given large money already committed to FGFA program) but certainly won't be a bad decision if we look at things keeping Rafale in mind in future.

 

[HariPrasad]

Wish list

you sure u don't need some big canned wh0res over there ?

 

[PoKeMon]

But when France is not able to maintain it's AC how do you expect that India will operationalize all four at a time?

On the expense of our living standard. Sad but true.

But what else can be done, we have enemies claiming our land.

 

[Optimos Prime IA]

Aircraft with Vertical landing capacity is F-35B, and the conventional Carrier based Aircraft is F-35C.

In my opinion, F-35B would be costlier, less capable, and a bigger maintenance whore than F-35C.

If IN wanted F-35B, it would have not sought EMALS as F-35B is fully capable of flying from both Vikramaditya and IAC1. In addition to that , IN has sought info about F-35C from LM, not F-35B (though LM has supplied it); and given the experience of IN with STOVL aorcrafts, it is unlikely that IN would go for F-35B.




It is F-35C.

IN would not be considering EMALS for F-35B. It is a STOVL Aircraft, and even our IAC1 is more than enough for it.



Heavy Aircrafts like Su-35 are not suitable for carrier operations. They have to fly with less fuel, hence limitation of range. They occupy more space, hence less Aircrafts are onboard. This decreases usefulness of carriers.

EMALS has nothing to do with F35B or F35C .Catapult system or flat deck requirements for heavy aircrafts of different kinds and for different needs . F35 B will have multiple platforms in future IN. Its not clear which will be chosen but Mig 29K can be ruled out .So now we are left with F18 , F35 , Rafael . Please don't count AMCA or FGFA its too far away as of now . May be opted for IAC-3 . So F18 already an outdated aircraft even for current requirements as we can have Mig29 K in steed. So this can be ruled out too. Since US helping us to build IAC2 there are huge possibilities for an American jets onboard. This is where F35 comes into picture . Which is futuristic aircraft and the main purpose of A/C is it's bombing abilities, Anti ship role, intelligence gathering to name a few . Make no mistakes about stealth features of F35 program and its superior role as a bombers . Rafale M will cost more than 200-250 mil where as F35 might come with same price and little more than rafale.

F35 B or C ? I would chose F35 B due to its vertical launch and landing. Making it a multipurpose aircraft which can be launch from other naval platform as well.

Then we should opt for RAFALE with more Indian content and Screw F 35 our indigenous 5th Gen AMCA.

Btw by 2022 Our defence Budget will be $100 billion,can't we afford F 35 ?

Why do you need manufacturing base for naval fighters ? Do we have one for Mig 29 ? NO. We just need the spares and maintenance base with in India . Which we can get as a package .

Will it be kept as reserve and operational ready or will be operated normally? I don't think India actually need more two AC operating at a time. Won't it be costly enough to maintain?

You are misinformed . After IAC2 there will be two more twin IAC program which complete our need for 2040-50 . Follow on will be around 1lac T like Nimitz Class. And I get a feeling that US is actually preparing India for that level of technology with IAC2 .

Andaman is being slowly fortified to its teeth... One big problem is that Andaman doesn't have a big mountain or very high ground... but IN is little satisfied with it....

Already radars,SAMs and Brahmos is been stationed in Andaman... as of now MKIs can reach A&N any time from Chennai so IAF not interested in placing them in A&N. also we don't need any deep strike fighters there since we don't have any hostile neighbors over there. but yes IN can come up with a new Marine corps..

and Placing IRBMs in A&N will not be published or confirmed so talking about it not needed

Vertical take off aircrafts will benefit A&N in case of run way destroyed by missile strike . F35B is what we should get at least 60 of them . 40 for IAC-2 and 20,for AN

 

[kakathiya]

I mean the on board fuel tanks. One is for the planes and one is to run the carrier..and of course all the bombs.
I think a small reactor would be the least of your worries.

the modern day AC has safety measures for all these which are reinforced and has automatic fire dousers,and its too far because the naval personnel are trained for this and follow procedure,India has been operating AC for years, Indians know how to look after their AC and we are developing thorium reactors and as for fueling Indians have mastered it , Indians have reasonable anti missile shield, in near feature it will be more sophisticated.

In the Indian ocean, I don't think there is any real fear of China, too many odds against them. The navy is reasonable confident of handling any threat here. You are right of course that there needs to be more work there. I'm not sure there needs to be a substantial presence of the air force & the army permanently stationed there. Can be moved at short notice.

but Chinese nuke subs are frequenting our waters very often nowadays, they are testing our preparedness, and also intimidating India by docking at srilanka, for a while it may have been stopped in Lanka but not for ever, the Chinese want to know what will be our response if they enter Indian waters, India is good in surface vessels but not good at under water capabilities it will take another decade for our new subs to be war fit, many a times we have got intel about the subs from USN other friendly countries, so our A&N command has to pull up the socks, and also the govt has to give a priority to these islands.

 

[kakathiya]

India and US wanted to do some business and they are doing it, simple. There is no such thing as wait and watch when it comes to defence, all these days India has done that and learnt the bitter lessons.

Now it is get the best tech, indigence it, build better products as per schedule and export.

as far as Indian American defense relations are concerned, the Americans want India to completely abandon russia, and become an ally for it to give duel use technology until then India will get 3rd grade weapons, they keep the first grade weapons for themselves and give the second grade weapons for their allies and give third grade weapons for countries like India, you may know that Abram tanks are one of the best tanks but they are becoming minced meat in the middle east, why? because in the name of Abram they have given the watered down version of the tanks they are Abrams only for name sake, don't you know our own history that ewe pounded the world famous Patton tanks of Pakistan with just 80mm jeep mounted cannons, so the govt of India is not going to buy F35 in near future for at least 25 years, take my word, India will rather improve N LCA and increase the head count of naval Rafael, more mig29k/kub for navy.

 

[Foo_Fighter]

I wasn't talking about a nuclear attack- I was referring to a conventional attack on a nuclear carrier. It is a very very big strategic asset, as important as a piece of land. And add to it the fact that if a missile does hit the reactor....the consequences for the whole battle group are going to be severe.

Mr Congress men, so for instance a foreign country get's through our battle group (it's not that easy mate)... however somehow one is able to hit a nuclear reactor of an A/C carrier won't the be first strike by nuclear warhead on India??? Or is it written somewhere that it explicitly has to be be from a registered country to be called a nuclear strike?

A nuclear attack or an attack on nuclear vessel of India is the same.

 

[Guynextdoor2]

Mr Congress men, so for instance a foreign country get's through our battle group (it's not that easy mate)... however somehow one is able to hit a nuclear reactor of an A/C carrier won't the be first strike by nuclear warhead on India??? Or is it written somewhere that it explicitly has to be be from a registered country to be called a nuclear strike?

A nuclear attack or an attack on nuclear vessel of India is the same.

Carrier tactics is a whole different game. Attacking a carrier using an IRBM with a conventional or even nuclear warhead (as the soviets would have done to US carriers) is very conventional thinking. CBG can't stop such an attack.

 

[anonymus]

It is matter of taking call.
If IN goes for F 35, there could be implications for FGFA program (in terms of budget) and also we'll have to buy them off the shelf, which contradicts current government's Make in India program.
But here if it is a question of making a choice between N Rafale and F 35 (assuming they cost more or less the same), F 35 is obviously a wise decision considering Rafale are also proposed to be purchased off the Shelf in future. Besides it looks like US might be pushing a package deal consisting of fighters, AWACS, Launch and weapon systems.
Off late India (a far as navy is concerned) has put great deal of confidence on US systems (P8I for example and its interest in E2D), so it shouldn't come as a surprise if what we are discussing might actually turn out to be a reality. & given how brilliantly US has fulfilled all the defence contracts till date, i'm in favor of such deals.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not many countries are planing for large scale ACs ( US, China, India and perhaps Brazil) for future. Thus development of a costly EMALS technology might be prohibitively expensive unless sufficient orders are placed for such a system. IMHO this could be one reason why US is willing to offer the system to India, which has long term plans for atleast 3 more ACs after IAC 1.

Funds for F-35 would come from Navy's CAPEX, while for FGFA from Airforce's CAPEX. I don't think choosing F-35 for Navy would undermine FGFA.

Anyway Carrier Launcged and Ground Launched Aircraft are pretty different. Barring few advantages of interchangable spares, there is not much benefit that would accrue due to commonality in platform.

EMALS has nothing to do with F35B or F35C

It has everything to do with Catapult.

F-35B does not require Catapult system at all. Why would IN waste money on EMALS and a New carrier, if it has to fly F-35B from it. India could fly F-35B from existing carriers, or even if it goes for new carrier, that carrier would cost 3-6 Billion dollar, depending on displacement. A nuclear powered CATOBAR carier would cost around $10-12 Billion.

Also F-35 is less capable than F-35C. F-35B has 2/3 the range, and 5/6 the payload of F-35C.

F-35B at max G-rating of 7 is less maneuverable than F-35C at 7.5 .

While F-35B could carry a two 1000 Pound JDAM in main weapon bay apart from two Aim-120C in side weapon bay, F-35C could carry two 2000 Pound JDAM in main weapon bay apart from Aim120C in side weapon bay. This limits offensive capability of F-35B as it would have limited anti-ship capability, compared to F-35C.

as far as Indian American defense relations are concerned, the Americans want India to completely abandon russia, and become an ally for it to give duel use technology until then India will get 3rd grade weapons, they keep the first grade weapons for themselves and give the second grade weapons for their allies and give third grade weapons for countries like India, you may know that Abram tanks are one of the best tanks but they are becoming minced meat in the middle east, why? because in the name of Abram they have given the watered down version of the tanks they are Abrams only for name sake, don't you know our own history that ewe pounded the world famous Patton tanks of Pakistan with just 80mm jeep mounted cannons, so the govt of India is not going to buy F35 in near future for at least 25 years, take my word, India will rather improve N LCA and increase the head count of naval Rafael, more mig29k/kub for navy.

This is a rendition of recycled diatribe that ignorant Indian media feed to Indian public.

Russia ,by selling us weapons, is not doing charity on us. We are paying customers. And the fact that Russia is willing to sell everything to China, makes it an unreliable supplier in high tech category. Also since out Navy in future would primarily be China oriented, there is not much to fear about US embargo on Navy.

Apart from that Mig 29K's and LCA would never ever be capable enough for 2025+ rime period. Mig has maxed out its development potential and LCA was never designed to take on J-XX series of Aircrafts.

FYI, Patton tanks were not high tech.