India on the War path?

[The Eagle]

In Kargil Musharraf betrayed Nawaz, Pakistani people and India.

This statement reminds of Nawaz Humiliating speech however, trying to prove him as traitor, reminds me the reason about Musharraf that mostly what he does on Indian Channels. The Kargil scene actually betrays the Nawaz-India duo and no one else.

 

[thinkingcap81]

.... India always had the more saner & elucidated leadership of the two with ours easily fifteen points or so lower on the IQ&sanity index- so while Pakistani leadership may have risen 4-5 points up, Indias has fallen below ours. That is the dangerous bit in all of this; we now have people on both sides willing to press the ultimate trigger.

Can it be concluded that Indian politicians' sanity index has slipped several notches? We are becoming more belligerent only towards Pakistan. We, at least via the media/official government statements, played it safely against China in the recent Doklam standoff.

On the other hand 'official' Chinese media continuously lambasted India during the recent Doklam episode. So do we conclude that the Chinese leadership is insane?

Perhaps our politicians, even keeping in mind that right-wing ones are in power, are of the opinion that the disparity in conventional armed force strength is significant. This disparity has also been indicated by @Joe Shearer in his previous post.

Secondly, India also needs to counter Pakistan's threat of tactical nuclear weapons by saying that our plans and capabilities have taken Pakistan's official position into account.

 

[Politico]

If the members of this forum represent the mindset of their respective nations, I've never come across a nation more eager to commit suicide than Pakistan. Even North Korea pales in comparison

 

[Laozi]

This statement reminds of Nawaz Humiliating speech however, trying to prove him as traitor, reminds me the reason about Musharraf that mostly what he does on Indian Channels. The Kargil scene actually betrays the Nawaz-India duo and no one else.

Pakistanis are divided on this issue. I have followed some TV debates where both hawkish and doveish views were aired about this (mis)adventure.

If you think that your Army was in a winning mode then they really did a foolish thing by withdrawing and towing the U.S. line BUT If they were on the backfoot then they did the correct thing by withdrawing and blaming Nawaz for the backing off.

Anyways this episode had not given any thing positive to Pakistan, neither stategically or diplomatically

 

[blain2]

The Samson Option is a generic name for a range of possibilities. One possibility being send in special forces to detonate in a remote area as a warning even before hostilities start.

In reality, after NK's H-Bomb test, India feels that we have a tested fusion device. They now need a moral reason to perform their own test. Thus, these cheap skate tactics to goad a response. In this context comes Gen. Asif Ghafoor's response: let them attack and we will respond with a smile.

The Samson option has one specific goal. Which is to use the nuclear capability and hurt all those that one feels are inimical to one's interests before being overrun/destroyed. Obviously Pakistan's Samson option is not as drastic as that of Israel's as our deterrence is focused only on India. However, Pakistan will not allow itself to become subservient to India (post a supposed military campaign by the latter). This window of opportunity for India is long gone (it existed prior to Pakistan having an operationalized nuclear capability). I also don't state this lightly because it is not a joke or bluster. But if Indian establishment feels that it can overwhelm Pakistan through some shock and awe campaign and only on their terms then they are miscalculating badly.

If the members of this forum represent the mindset of their respective nations, I've never come across a nation more eager to commit suicide than Pakistan. Even North Korea pales in comparison

That is a matter of personal perspective but its neither a fact nor a fair assessment in "my opinion."

 

[Joe Shearer]

Ahh, the old show the mirror strategy. well played friend.

Point here is not about India's war path. The whole fear is the acknowledgement of the old India which was almost apologetic when using power to settle disputes does not exist anymore.
The current dispensation does not mind to use power and does not mind the world to know it can and will use power.

A very surprising conclusion, unless you are a mind-reader; the 'current dispensation' has never shown power, never exercised power except against its own citizens, indifferently to the Dalit, the Muslim or the Kashmiri. Against the Pakistanis, they took an existing response mechanism, which had served us successfully in the past, and put it in the full glow of the limelight, to claim credit for themselves for something that the Indian military had quietly, soundlessly done whenever required, without resorting to the sickening self-glorification of these chairborne warriors.

This particular change in the mindset of India, is not something that is not digestible to our neighbours & hence messages like this.

Your romantic vision entirely. Remember to burnish your armour and not allow it to rust when on campaign against the Paynim.

India needs to be assertive and they are being assertive and letting the neighbours know that two can play the game.

The word so far has been B L U S T E R.

I wrote my note to address those whom I admire and respect among the Pakistani members - @niaz, @Oscar and @Kaptaan (their views are not coincident; they are strong personalities with sharply etched notions of their own, AND they do not suffer fools gladly).

You will observe that they are never prone to the weakness of blustering.

To echo a cliched statement “madness, is like gravity..”
however, subversive activities were undertaken by India all the way back in the 60’s in the form of Bengali dissidents- prior to the 65 war the eastern wing had fairly open borders and a weekend in calcutta was common for many. A lot of the mujib cadre recieved their support and indoctrination from there even during Ayub’s overtures of fighting the “red menace “ together.

The 90s was wholly clandestine money support for both ethnic &sectarian terror in Pakistan as reprisal for the Kashmir fires and the Mumbai Gang choke.

So it’s not all washed with milk regradless of the majority of the Indian Bureaucracy or government frowning upon it- but what I will concede is that prior to this government; India always had the more saner & elucidated leadership of the two with ours easily fifteen points or so lower on the IQ&sanity index- so while Pakistani leadership may have risen 4-5 points up, Indias has fallen below ours. That is the dangerous bit in all of this; we now have people on both sides willing to press the ultimate trigger.

While that possibility is a fair chance off usually, the danger lies in both the equation of conflict coming in, teetering , and now on the brink of slipping away from India in its current acceptable losses/casualty “victory” - it’s a “now” or “hope for another disaster in ten years” situation presented(by a breed of hawks long relegated only to small audiences or bellicose talk shows) to the fascists in power which may have them take that chance.

A very fair analysis with one small quibble; I have pictures of Mizo rebels in Chittagong, and I have for you something that you must have already read: the tart-tongued account of Brig. Z. A. Khan about his encounter with the protected Mizos in 71, whose relationship with ISI and the Army had started earlier. But that does not affect the direction and thrust of your analysis. It is precisely the lowering of the mental standard of the 'current dispensation' as a young lackey of that lot terms them, to a level where two sets of idiots are sitting with their fingers on nuclear triggers that has upset the entire balance on the sub-continent. There is little that I can add to your terse analysis.

 

[third eye]

get the historical monkey of 1000 years of Muslim rule

You have mentioned this at least twice in this thread.

For the record, when did these 1000 years start & finish ?

India would have attacked Pakistan a very long time ago but is deterred by the later’s nuclear program and other strategic assets.

Having learnt relevant lessons from US ( mis) adventures across the globe and taken a cue from their approach to the USSR , India is doing well so far. All wars are not fought with bullets , Pak has already been engaged in a war for a decade & its results are showing.

Why create a shooting war ?

Historically, India has always torn a leaf from the Pak book of dirty tricks & done a better job of it.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Two men, calling spade a spade!
Looking forward to further discussion and will just keep silent and enjoy the debate. Please do carry on. It was GREAT reading both these posts really.


EVERYONE: Truth is not always hurting you see? Read this people, it is like a benchmark.
@The Sandman @Moonlight @Neutron @saiyan0321 @Tipu7

You have already tagged some of the saner elements, and I have no doubt that the present situation cries out to every sensible citizen of our countries for urgent moderation. It is really no point in gilding the lily, and adding to Oscar's summary. The loss of our moral position for the sake of playing to the gallery is a tragic loss.

You have mentioned this at least twice in this thread.

For the record, when did these 1000 years start & finish ?

Having learnt relevant lessons from US ( mis) adventures across the globe and taken a cue from their approach to the USSR , India is doing well so far. All wars are not fought with bullets , Pak has already been engaged in a war for a decade & its results are showing.

Why create a shooting war ?

@third eye

This is a false flagger, who tries to bring the moral authority of an American citizen to support his partisan stand. Read his orotund English and gauge the situation.

Can it be concluded that Indian politicians' sanity index has slipped several notches? We are becoming more belligerent only towards Pakistan. We, at least via the media/official government statements, played it safely against China in the recent Doklam standoff.

On the other hand 'official' Chinese media continuously lambasted India during the recent Doklam episode. So do we conclude that the Chinese leadership is insane?

Perhaps our politicians, even keeping in mind that right-wing ones are in power, are of the opinion that the disparity in conventional armed force strength is significant. This disparity has also been indicated by @Joe Shearer in his previous post.

Secondly, India also needs to counter Pakistan's threat of tactical nuclear weapons by saying that our plans and capabilities have taken Pakistan's official position into account.

Very well put. Welcome to the world outside the asylum.

 

[thinkingcap81]

...The loss of our moral position for the sake of playing to the gallery is a tragic loss...

Would you be lenient and accept the belligerent stand of the present government if you thought that they are, by and large, doing good for the country?

I am not in a position to judge if their economic policies are good. But I do think that some of the rightist views and actions they are taking are quite problematic. Not that I hold the opposition in high esteem.

 

[Qutb-ud-din Aybak]

Idiotic comment ........ You have no idea what your talking about

India is bigger than Europe in land mass AND its centres of population and business are over 1000km away from indo pak border . Pakistan has no where near enough bombs or delivery systems to take india to stone age.

IN CONTRAST india has all your major cities withon reach as you are one quarter the size with only half dozen real large targets to uttlerly wipe you off the map.

India needs a fraction of the bombs to to same damage

and despite this we promise you total annihilation.
we will hunt every last one of you through our bigger weapons.

 

[Falcon26]

You have mentioned this at least twice in this thread.

For the record, when did these 1000 years start & finish ?



Having learnt relevant lessons from US ( mis) adventures across the globe and taken a cue from their approach to the USSR , India is doing well so far. All wars are not fought with bullets , Pak has already been engaged in a war for a decade & its results are showing.

Why create a shooting war ?

Historically, India has always torn a leaf from the Pak book of dirty tricks & done a better job of it.

Starting with the Muslim incursions into India which lasted till the advent of the British East India Company.

About the second part of your post, thanks for accepting your country’s active support of terrorism in Pakistan. I think it takes guts to accept that. There has been a big shift by your country in accepting its role as an sponsor of terrorism in Pakistan, lately.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Would you be lenient and accept the belligerent stand of the present government if you thought that they are, by and large, doing good for the country?

I am not in a position to judge if their economic policies are good. But I do think that some of the rightist views and actions they are taking are quite problematic. Not that I hold the opposition in high esteem.

I am afraid not.

Domestic policy and foreign policy are entirely different matters. We cannot balance the good a government in one aspect with the harm they cause in another.

The opposition, and their advanced state of gangrene, are the main reason for our being punished by the 'current dispensation'. They are beneath contempt.

 

[thinkingcap81]

I am afraid not.

Domestic policy and foreign policy are entirely different matters. We cannot balance the good a government in one aspect with the harm they cause in another.

The opposition, and their advanced state of gangrene, are the main reason for our being punished by the 'current dispensation'. They are beneath contempt.

Thanks for the reply.

I suppose that left/right/neutral leanings that one has, even assuming that we are reasonably objective in our analysis, will decide which party we vote for -- irrespective of the follies they commit.

Anyway, I am deviating from the topic. So I'll stop here.

 

[ashok321]

India is bigger than Europe in land mass

How?

 

[Falcon26]

You have already tagged some of the saner elements, and I have no doubt that the present situation cries out to every sensible citizen of our countries for urgent moderation. It is really no point in gilding the lily, and adding to Oscar's summary. The loss of our moral position for the sake of playing to the gallery is a tragic loss.



@third eye

This is a false flagger, who tries to bring the moral authority of an American citizen to support his partisan stand. Read his orotund English and gauge the situation.



Very well put. Welcome to the world outside the asylum.

I am a flamer? All because I puncture your bogus stances. What a joke!