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India Next Door, China Over the Horizon: The View from South Asia

That's what it looks like on paper.

In reality, China is pretty chaotic too. There's protests and riots every day. Corruption everywhere. The news is 1/3 worthless propaganda and 2/3 scandals that make your blood boil. Government gets deadlocked over even a new interpretation of the marriage law passed in 1950's. State owned companies contribute 40% of GDP but make up only 10% of employment; private sector is rest.

Exports make up 1/4 of GDP in China and 1/6 of GDP in India, not too far off.

The reason China is successful, and India is not as successful, has strongly to do with 2 factors:

1. The socialist practice that land cannot be privately transferred. This prevents farmers from using their land as collateral for loans, which if the farmer fails to pay off, they could be left landless as a permanent rural underclass and contribute to slum formation and armed rebels.

2. Educating a large number of people up to the middle school level, rather than creating a highly educated international business class, coupled with masses of illiterates.

China's success can be attributed to 2 ideas: equality of opportunity, and reduction of risk.

By chaotic, I mean the government in China has priorities. The Chinese government wants Beijing as a power centre, while wants HK, Shanghai and Shenzhen to be financial hubs, Guangdong and Chengdu to be manufacturing hubs, and Hangzhou and other tier II cities to be pharma and IT hubs; moreover, dividing economic zone by river delta such as Yangtze River Delta and Pearl River Delta have been planned to hilt and executed wonderfully, no wonder Yangtze River Delta alone contributes to 25% of the whole Chinese GDP. In India this is lacking big time. Government lacks vision document for the country.

And as regarding you points

The socialist practice of land non transfer makes the Government virtually the owner of all land in China. This has more bad consequences than good. So in this regard I feel India is better off than China. Private ownership is extremely important. Private ownership means choice

As regarding education, I wholly agree with you. Yes, the government of India has failed big time in educating the masses. Unless the governments corrects this, India cannot take advantage of its demographic divided and on the other hand the demograhics could become the liabilities for the country
 
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That's not possible. Even the so called "private companies" in China are owned by the state or state players. Figures indicating private sector in China is an eyewash. But it'll be interesting to know what the percentages are. Do you have any figures?

no, I don't. kind of somewhere in this forum, saw it before.
 
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Yes China wants to invest a lot in India. China wants to enter Indian infrastructure markets and its logical given the Chinese expertise in infrastructure development; however, it is Indian government that is reluctant to allow Chinese companies given the distrust between the two countries. Treatments meted out to Huawei, ZTE and other port building Chinese companies in India are examples.

China also sees India as a huge market for its products and most consumer Chinese goods companies have either setup shops here or have big plans to be India in immediate time. Also Indian companies are importing Chinese workers in large numbers for building steel plants, bridges and other mega infrastructure projects in India. Chinese community is ever growing in India and so is its FDI

There is nothing day dreaming about this. Infrastructure developments, FDI, Tech transfer are all functions of economy’s growth rates, markets and government policies. In first two parameters there are few countries that can match India, while government policies are slowly becoming more open towards the FDI

Okay lets debate this out, in all fairness I am not putting India down but I'm oppose to thinking plain demographics will do the job.

China's dominance today is not only built on manufacturing but a whole host of other factors include huge consumerism spurred by Europe and the US during the good days. Because labor was so cheap and these countries were moving on to higher skilled jobs (i.e Finance, Real Estate ) they happy moved entire supply chains over to China without thinking too much. This allowed China to not only dominate the manufacturing space but gain a lot of manufacturing know over the years which even most companies who outsource the work to them do not have. This allowed China a dominance in

- Supply chain advantage
- Skilled workers
- Huge Surplus (from the days before Subprime)
- First class Infrastructure to support the supply chain

This is not forgetting that China's government is actually easier to do business with as an outsider and compared to India, plus in the early days Hong Kong & Taiwan helped a lot in linking China with the outside world by acting as intermediary. This is important as both countries used their transparency to gain investor confidence and then negotiating with their fellow Chinese thus making investment easier.

If India wanted to move into this space given the younger demographics as per say, the question I if I where a company looking to move my factory are as below

- Who will be the target market? Local or Overseas
- Are there Skilled workers or do I need to train
- Are there supply chain advantages in the location
- Is the labor cheaper?
- How is the infrastructure to get my goods to port
- Is transportation cost cheaper to my target markets

The question above are posed for a manufacturing company looking to cater to volume exports to the international market. Unless 50% of the above can meet the criteria as a company its a risk to even consider moving.

I am not surprised Huawei and ZTE moved into India as India is a huge consumer market, but I believe the move is mainly to service the local market and not the overseas one (Or least the volume is small).

Given that countries with manufacturing expertise are tapped dry of funds its leaves countries like China and Germany to consider outsourcing their manufacturing bases. But even with lower cost outside so I doubt the CPC will allow manufacturing to leave in droves in the next 10 - 15 years given that they still have a huge population that needs employment, in fact the CPC is deliberately allowing workers salaries to go up in the developed region and force the manufacturing inland towards Xinjiang to modernize China's interior plus building the rail systems to support this.

I do agree the government policies towards FDI are important though, however I feel that India's government is still not doing what it needs to get a move on. If you look at this link Ranking of economies - Doing Business - World Bank Group and you pull out all the developing countries in excel you will notice that over the past few years the countries that have picked up the slack in manufacturing are the ones with higher rank on the scale (I.e Vietnam, Malaysia, Thailand).

This is just part of the global things to take into consideration, I have not even touched on future other parts like consumer markets, cost of electrification, access to clean water, food security, cost of oil, global warming etc that will take place in 10 - 15 years time.

Anyway unless I see India business ranking go up the charts tremendously I'm skeptical if enough FDI will go in to support the the use of the younger workers. It is a double edged sword because too many young people with nothing to do its not good in the long run.

I appreciated any good comments back and I will keep an open mind on the subject since we are all here to learn, but if you have something please put it down clearly with something to connect the dots with relevant data.
 
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If India wanted to move into this space given the younger demographics as per say, the question I if I where a company looking to move my factory are as below

- Who will be the target market? Local or Overseas
- Are there Skilled workers or do I need to train
- Are there supply chain advantages in the location
- Is the labor cheaper?
- How is the infrastructure to get my goods to port
- Is transportation cost cheaper to my target markets

The question above are posed for a manufacturing company looking to cater to volume exports to the international market. Unless 50% of the above can meet the criteria as a company its a risk to even consider moving.

I am not surprised Huawei and ZTE moved into India as India is a huge consumer market, but I believe the move is mainly to service the local market and not the overseas one (Or least the volume is small).

Given that countries with manufacturing expertise are tapped dry of funds its leaves countries like China and Germany to consider outsourcing their manufacturing bases. But even with lower cost outside so I doubt the CPC will allow manufacturing to leave in droves in the next 10 - 15 years given that they still have a huge population that needs employment, in fact the CPC is deliberately allowing workers salaries to go up in the developed region and force the manufacturing inland towards Xinjiang to modernize China's interior plus building the rail systems to support this.

Anyway unless I see India business ranking go up the charts tremendously I'm skeptical if enough FDI will go in to support the the use of the younger workers. It is a double edged sword because too many young people with nothing to do its not good in the long run.

I appreciated any good comments back and I will keep an open mind on the subject since we are all here to learn, but if you have something please put it down clearly with something to connect the dots with relevant data.

I don't completely agree with you here. You have completely overlooked the problem of Intellectual property which has been cause for concern for quite some time in China. Companies, especially automotive firms and turbine manufacturers are increasingly exploring India as the hub of final assembly of the products. Hyundai and Suzuki already produce all their small cars for export in India. Renault has declared plans to do the same. Toshiba is basing it's export oriented manufacturing hub for heavy turbines in India and Nokia is rumored to be doing the same.
In fact Chennai is turning out to be a hub for this. The business model being observed is as follows. Most of the parts of the end products are manufactured in China no doubt and consolidated at either Shanghai or Harbin.These are then shipped to the Eastern Coast of India mainly Vizag, Chennai and Tutticorin wherein they are shipped to the SEZ set up for such industries.
 
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Thank you for the excellent post, however, I don't think readers understand the source of the "fascination" -- what is it given all the differences you point to, that should still be fascinating to Indians about China???

And if you should answer that it is the growth, then all those differences you point you, mean, exactly what??

The fascination is about how a country with similar population size could achieve such development in such short time. Before Chinese development, India could never believe that a poor country with more than a billion people and with so much diversity and with different ideas could achieve high growth rates. Before 1991, we always felt moderation, socialist economic policy of inclusiveness and Hindu growth rate of 1 to 2% are right prescription for India. The Chinese development has changed how Indians visualize economic development. Now, it is like, if China can do this, why cannot India. It should not surprise people if 1991 Indian reforms were inspired to large extent by China
 
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I don't completely agree with you here. You have completely overlooked the problem of Intellectual property which has been cause for concern for quite some time in China. Companies, especially automotive firms and turbine manufacturers are increasingly exploring India as the hub of final assembly of the products. Hyundai and Suzuki already produce all their small cars for export in India. Renault has declared plans to do the same. Toshiba is basing it's export oriented manufacturing hub for heavy turbines in India and Nokia is rumored to be doing the same.
In fact Chennai is turning out to be a hub for this. The business model being observed is as follows. Most of the parts of the end products are manufactured in China no doubt and consolidated at either Shanghai or Harbin.These are then shipped to the Eastern Coast of India mainly Vizag, Chennai and Tutticorin wherein they are shipped to the SEZ set up for such industries.

Fair point, Intellectual property is definitely one of the strong points of investing in India, interestingly enough I believe the violation of IP rights in China actually helped increase growth and snatch away the manufacturing edge of foreign companies who manufactured themselves initially then later subcontracted when the prices of multiple competing manufacturers drove prices down. Morally its definitely wrong but it is ultimately still an edge in the race to modernize.

Thanks for pointing out the turbine manufacturing to be honest I was not aware of this industry but that said I am not sure if that can provide critical mass to employ the population.

Nokia as pointed out is actually quite a losing battle in the world of telcos, majority of the leading companies have handsets made in China which profit immensely from the huge saving in supply chain (i.e Apple HTC etc). It will be interesting how this plays out.

Just in reference to the top it appears Foxconns supply chain efficiency has the cost of the apple product so low that the profit margins are immense. Even a Sony playstation cost more to manufacture then its selling price
 
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The fascination is about how a country with similar population size could achieve such development in such short time. Before Chinese development, India could never believe that a poor country with more than a billion people and with so much diversity and with different ideas could achieve high growth rates. Before 1991, we always felt moderation, socialist economic policy of inclusiveness and Hindu growth rate of 1 to 2% are right prescription for India. The Chinese development has changed how Indians visualize economic development. Now, it is like, if China can do this, why cannot India. It should not surprise people if 1991 Indian reforms were inspired to large extent by China

So China is a source of inspiration for India, why then so much acrimony? Why so much pettiness?
 
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Fair point, Intellectual property is definitely one of the strong points of investing in India, interestingly enough I believe the violation of IP rights in China actually helped increase growth and snatch away the manufacturing edge of foreign companies who manufactured themselves initially then later subcontracted when the prices of multiple competing manufacturers drove prices down. Morally its definitely wrong but it is ultimately still an edge in the race to modernize.

Thanks for pointing out the turbine manufacturing to be honest I was not aware of this industry but that said I am not sure if that can provide critical mass to employ the population.

Nokia as pointed out is actually quite a losing battle in the world of telcos, majority of the leading companies have handsets made in China which profit immensely from the huge saving in supply chain (i.e Apple HTC etc). It will be interesting how this plays out.

Just in reference to the top it appears Foxconns supply chain efficiency has the cost of the apple product so low that the profit margins are immense. Even a Sony playstation cost more to manufacture then its selling price

Thing about companies involved in power plant erection is that they already are procuring all the structures, stators and other equipment from their units or sub-contractors from China. There are already loads and loads of Chinese firms with the capability tomanufacture those and infact make better products. The key lies in the Turbines. That's where they wouldn't mind additional cost of manufacture in India. As you mentioned, it may not be as labor intensive as the industries in China, but it will generate a lot more margins for the company and Forex for India.
The same goes for automotive manufacturers. I'm not too sure of Nokia myself.
 
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Thanks for pointing out the turbine manufacturing to be honest I was not aware of this industry but that said I am not sure if that can provide critical mass to employ the population.

Turbine assembly plant usually is placed where there is a potential market nearby. It is part of global supply chain. This activity shows these firms are looking for opps of more power plants or etc in the country.
 
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Okay lets debate this out, in all fairness I am not putting India down but I'm oppose to thinking plain demographics will do the job.

China's dominance today is not only built on manufacturing but a whole host of other factors include huge consumerism spurred by Europe and the US during the good days. Because labor was so cheap and these countries were moving on to higher skilled jobs (i.e Finance, Real Estate ) they happy moved entire supply chains over to China without thinking too much. This allowed China to not only dominate the manufacturing space but gain a lot of manufacturing know over the years which even most companies who outsource the work to them do not have. This allowed China a dominance in

- Supply chain advantage
- Skilled workers
- Huge Surplus (from the days before Subprime)
- First class Infrastructure to support the supply chain

This is not forgetting that China's government is actually easier to do business with as an outsider and compared to India, plus in the early days Hong Kong & Taiwan helped a lot in linking China with the outside world by acting as intermediary. This is important as both countries used their transparency to gain investor confidence and then negotiating with their fellow Chinese thus making investment easier.

If India wanted to move into this space given the younger demographics as per say, the question I if I where a company looking to move my factory are as below

- Who will be the target market? Local or Overseas
- Are there Skilled workers or do I need to train
- Are there supply chain advantages in the location
- Is the labor cheaper?
- How is the infrastructure to get my goods to port
- Is transportation cost cheaper to my target markets

The question above are posed for a manufacturing company looking to cater to volume exports to the international market. Unless 50% of the above can meet the criteria as a company its a risk to even consider moving.

I am not surprised Huawei and ZTE moved into India as India is a huge consumer market, but I believe the move is mainly to service the local market and not the overseas one (Or least the volume is small).

Given that countries with manufacturing expertise are tapped dry of funds its leaves countries like China and Germany to consider outsourcing their manufacturing bases. But even with lower cost outside so I doubt the CPC will allow manufacturing to leave in droves in the next 10 - 15 years given that they still have a huge population that needs employment, in fact the CPC is deliberately allowing workers salaries to go up in the developed region and force the manufacturing inland towards Xinjiang to modernize China's interior plus building the rail systems to support this.

I do agree the government policies towards FDI are important though, however I feel that India's government is still not doing what it needs to get a move on. If you look at this link Ranking of economies - Doing Business - World Bank Group and you pull out all the developing countries in excel you will notice that over the past few years the countries that have picked up the slack in manufacturing are the ones with higher rank on the scale (I.e Vietnam, Malaysia, Thailand).

This is just part of the global things to take into consideration, I have not even touched on future other parts like consumer markets, cost of electrification, access to clean water, food security, cost of oil, global warming etc that will take place in 10 - 15 years time.

Anyway unless I see India business ranking go up the charts tremendously I'm skeptical if enough FDI will go in to support the the use of the younger workers. It is a double edged sword because too many young people with nothing to do its not good in the long run.

I appreciated any good comments back and I will keep an open mind on the subject since we are all here to learn, but if you have something please put it down clearly with something to connect the dots with relevant data.

You just briefed how China has developed in last thirty years - its sources of development and its advantage. India need not and should not follow the Chinese path. India has to chart its own path; what were advantages yesterday may not be today. May be India should look at domestic markets, or exploit its good relations with the west, or exploit the large English speaking population, or look at the huge arable land that India has, or exploit it location in Indian ocean, or look at African, eastern European and Chinese markets, or may look at selling products for lesser price that China, or exploit its fairy sophisticated private sector, or move up the value chain, or look at large Indian expact population across the world, or exploit its image as a IT hub, or a combination of some; however, the bottom line is economic growth rates. India’s high growth rate in last decade is proving a point that India is doing something correct. Until the time the world has trading opportunities and comparative advantages, countries have space to develop.

As regarding the demographic dividend, I never claimed that younger demographics is alone advantage. Unless the Government provides educations and health, the younger demographics could prove to a bane.
 
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So China is a source of inspiration for India, why then so much acrimony? Why so much pettiness?

China is always looked upon with suspicion after the 1962 war. Coupled this with economic rivalry and we have such acrimonious relations, and there is China’s friendship with Pakistan and its ‘strategy’ of encircling India. Unlike relations between India and Pakistan, the relations between India and China are cordial or at least friendly on the surface; however, the economic relationship between India and China are booming and could prove to be a stabling factor in future.
 
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China is always looked upon with suspicion after the 1962 war. Coupled this with economic rivalry and we have such acrimonious relations, and there is China’s friendship with Pakistan and its ‘strategy’ of encircling India. Unlike relations between India and Pakistan, the relations between India and China are cordial or at least friendly on the surface; however, the economic relationship between India and China are booming and could prove to be a stabling factor in future.


What economic rivalry?? How is China in some sort of "rival" relationship with India? I don't whether you will agree but I can't recall the last time I ever read any Chinese person comparing China to India ----I very much agree that economic relations between China and India are booming and I can see them being worth more than the total trade with far away foreign powers - but what I just can't understand is why Indian friends are so desperate in their acrimonious comparisons -- for instance, not unless goaded will any Chinese respondents have a comment on how China is doing is relation to India - it's just not an issue with them - so why is it such an issue with Indian friends??

---------- Post added at 12:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:43 PM ----------

China is always looked upon with suspicion after the 1962 war. Coupled this with economic rivalry and we have such acrimonious relations, and there is China’s friendship with Pakistan and its ‘strategy’ of encircling India. Unlike relations between India and Pakistan, the relations between India and China are cordial or at least friendly on the surface; however, the economic relationship between India and China are booming and could prove to be a stabling factor in future.


What economic rivalry?? How is China in some sort of "rival" relationship with India? I don't whether you will agree but I can't recall the last time I ever read any Chinese person comparing China to India ----I very much agree that economic relations between China and India are booming and I can see them being worth more than the total trade with far away foreign powers - but what I just can't understand is why Indian friends are so desperate in their acrimonious comparisons -- for instance, not unless goaded will any Chinese respondents have a comment on how China is doing is relation to India - it's just not an issue with them - so why is it such an issue with Indian friends??
 
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What economic rivalry?? How is China in some sort of "rival" relationship with India? I don't whether you will agree but I can't recall the last time I ever read any Chinese person comparing China to India ----I very much agree that economic relations between China and India are booming and I can see them being worth more than the total trade with far away foreign powers - but what I just can't understand is why Indian friends are so desperate in their acrimonious comparisons -- for instance, not unless goaded will any Chinese respondents have a comment on how China is doing is relation to India - it's just not an issue with them - so why is it such an issue with Indian friends??

---------- Post added at 12:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:43 PM ----------




What economic rivalry?? How is China in some sort of "rival" relationship with India? I don't whether you will agree but I can't recall the last time I ever read any Chinese person comparing China to India ----I very much agree that economic relations between China and India are booming and I can see them being worth more than the total trade with far away foreign powers - but what I just can't understand is why Indian friends are so desperate in their acrimonious comparisons -- for instance, not unless goaded will any Chinese respondents have a comment on how China is doing is relation to India - it's just not an issue with them - so why is it such an issue with Indian friends??

The whole comparison business was not started by Indians, but by the western media/countries. And I would not blame them. After all, they had some strategic objective in mind. They want a counter balance for China in Asia; moreover, comparison made sense as both countries had some similarities such as large populations, agrarian societies, economic reforms and high economic growth rates. And then Indians started comparing with China as it was a sort of vindication of India’s rise.

However, it is entirely incorrect to say that Chinese don’t think India vs. China. Off late there is proliferation of India vs. China in Chinese thinking too. For example, while, recently, I was at Hangzhou Economic and Technological Development Area, the area the Chinese government earmarked to be IT and Pharma hub, the state officials have serious plans of competing with Bangalore and Hyderabad and this was reflected in the presentation they gave us. Similarly when we met the mayor of Shanghai, he was taking about how growth of India is fuelling the price of iron ore and commodity prices and affecting Chinese development, and the government strategies of securing China’s growth upon the advent of India. India vs. China has become too ubiquitous. It is surprising that you think 'China vs. India' an Indian creation
 
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A rare candid post. Makes for a good read as far as point of view is concerned. But to be honest China's success was brought about by the huge influx of foreign investment following the second set of reforms and pushed further by it's willingness to be the world's manufacturing hub. The factors you mentioned managed to facilitate all this.
India's growth was primarily driven by services and started loong after the reforms actually took place (to be honest they are still taking place). It is fairly recently that Indian manufacturing has started to find it's own identity in global markets. They will be the drivers of future growth for India. But really I don't see any reason for major disputes between China and India regarding economic growth. Ever since the Doha round of discussions, both countries have been a thorn in the side of developed nations.
Measures of influence is just the western world's myopic view of the world owing it's origin to the Cold war days. The scenario today is honestly something no one can clearly describe.

The total of FDI that has flowed into China for the past 30 years, is about 10% of last year's GDP (that's 2010).

List of countries by received FDI - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

8 China 574,300,000,000

That's 574 billion (0.574 trillion) USD out of a 6 trillion (that's 6000 billion) USD economy. But that's China's output in 1 year; that FDI is the sum of all FDI received for the past 30 years. The amount of China that is owned by foreigners is less than the amount owned by Spain, Netherlands, Belgium, etc. which are much smaller economies.

The real reasons of course for China's success was not FDI. FDI had very little to do with it and was mostly a conduit for technology transfers anyways. China developed after the 90's because China's state owned industries were streamlined and cut the fat, while letting private industry soak up the surplus workers. Economic growth sped up even further as taxes were lowered, such as the elimination of the agricultural tax dating back to the Han Dynasty 2000 years ago. And of course, military and governmen research was a major catalyst for economic growth. Lenovo was spun off from a Chinese Academy of Sciences research group; Sany Heavy Industries and Huawei were both led by former army engineers, and even in my hometown, a major producer of welding robots belongs to my university.
 
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China is always looked upon with suspicion after the 1962 war.

You do realize that outside of India the consensus is that India provoked the war right? I hope you have alternate reason for hating China.
 
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