India - National Integration: The Way Forward

[Nemesis]

We already know the answer to that - the typical Ram Mandir/offending Hindu sensibility rubbish. It's a joke really. Anyone with half a brain can see through them.

 

[ek_indian]

Fact number 1 - In the BJP we have a party, whose founding ideologue, a certain coward called "Veer" Savarkar, openly idolized Mussolini, based his khaki based RSS morons on Mussolini's goons, openly supported the butcher of Muslims, etc.

Just because you don't agree with other views, it does not mean others are wrong. BTW, BJP is founded by Syama Prasad Mookerjee. RSS is founded by K. B. Hedgewar.

Pandering to the minorities? Minorities in India have the lowest social indicators. Fact number 2. If pandering to them results in their social and economic improvement then i'm all for it.

Certainly BJP is not a reason behind minoirty's low indicator. Congress has been in power barring 5-6 years. Even so called third front has time in power.

A conservative party is acceptable. A fascist party is not. You do know that Conservative politics has a lot do with economics and less to do with religious fundamentalism? Fact number 3.

BJP does not become fascist jusy because you say so. If we look at dog-fight in WB between Tinmool Congress and communists, they look more like fascists.

Point being what? The BJP's actions are justified because the Congress has also indulged in it? Is that really your reasoning? Retarded.

No one is saying BJP is all clean. But they are better than Congress IMO. All other parties are just bunch of idiots.

All student organizations in India have goons. But nothing compares to the ABVP. Members of the ABVP were responsible for the murder of a Professor, yet the ABVP did not have the moral decency to disassociate them from the organization. Fact number 5.

I assume you are a third front (which is non existant now) supporter. However this was just a flame.

Sadhvi Pragya was once a member of the ABVP. Fact number 6.

This does not say whole ABVP is like this. Over simplification.

Innocent until proven guilty huh? So why don't LK Advani and Rajnath Singh defend Muslims accused of terrorist activities in the same way? Hindus can't be terrorists?

There are plenty of parties for that. Anyways this "innocent until proven guilty" is for everyone.

Amusing. This is the same ATS that gives us evidence of the involvement of non Hindu terrorist organizations, but you believe them then?

But....there is no evidence so far.

Pandering to Muslim votes is not a banned offence. Killing Muslims on the other hand is. Fact number 7.

Those who killed are behind bars. However over generalization!!

Congress leaders responsible for the Sikh riots need to be arrested. But why only them, those leftist leaders responsible for killing workers in Singur and Nandigram also need to be arrested.

Agreed. But in India, secular word has been twisted.

You have an inferiority complex. Feeling threatened, despite being part of an overwhelming majority is a classic symptom. Fact number 8.

This was just rant.

The thing about Fascist organizations is that it feeds on unemployment, poverty and illiteracy. This provides the fuel for ignorance and hatred. The more India develops, the more people get jobs, the more people get an education, the more people are uplifted from poverty, the less the chances are that the RSS fascist agenda will succeed. Facts 9, 10 and 11.

Hehehe....you are showing your frustation.

So no, the BJP won't survive in its current avatar for long. If it wants to survive, it needs to change. Fact 12.

Well....currently Congress is in trouble and left is almost doomed.

These are 12 facts for you. Chew on them. and try to come up with better arguments if you want to debate with me.

Where are the facts anyways??

 

[KS]

We already know the answer to that - the typical Ram Mandir/offending Hindu sensibility rubbish. It's a joke really. Anyone with half a brain can see through them.

U can talk as much as u want...ur hand stops where my nose ends.

Or is the classic mindset of jholla wala espousing pseudo-sickularism..?

 

[Jungle]

Savarkar was nevertheless a RSS member and a proponent of a 'Hindu Rashtra'. He is known to be a mentor of Nathuram Ghodse - an RSS activist. Weather he left the organization later or not is irrelavent. Just pointing out wat kind of people have been their members. To add, people like Golwalkar were the 1st to propose a 2 nation theory. Do i need to say more?!

 

[vsdoc]

National Integration will come as a movement from within the masses. It is not something that is going to percolate downwards from the innards of any political party. And most definitely not a party like the Congress, which took up the reins from the British when it came to divide and rule in India. We Parsis love voting Congress. Old Parsi aunties and uncles will reminisce wistfully about "aapro Rajiv." The Congress is the party which chose to let Pakistan happen because Nehru could not handle the heat of an equally powerful rival. Friends kid yourselves not that the Two Nation theory of Jinnah had anything to do with religion. It most definitely did not. It was the start of the vote bank politics we see to this day and age. A tradition proudly carried forward by the other equal party to that arrangement, the Congress. Why is it so hard to believe brothers? What happens to land when there are two sons who cannot see eye to eye? Division. What happened to the Reliance of Dhirubhai? We do not believe in the British concept of primiprogeniture. Here we will carve up something so that everyone goes home happy. Sub-continental politics is all about division of the cake in such a way that each party believes he got the biggest piece. Even today we see the same in India. Dynasty politics. If I am a CM, enjoy good health, and early demise does not seem to be on the cards for some time to come, fret not! Simply start an agitation along the lines of language to carve out a new state to present to my son when he comes of age. This is the reality. This is the legacy handed down to all of us. Both Indian and Pakistani.

Cheers, Doc

 

[Swift]

Hey Doc is back. Great to see u here after so long.

 

[Nemesis]

is that really a response?

Just because you don't agree with other views, it does not mean others are wrong. BTW, BJP is founded by Syama Prasad Mookerjee. RSS is founded by K. B. Hedgewar.

I said "Veer" Savarkar was the founding ideologue of BJP and RSS. Not the founding member. Learn the difference.

Certainly BJP is not a reason behind minoirty's low indicator. Congress has been in power barring 5-6 years. Even so called third front has time in power.

When did i say BJP was responsible for low social indicators?

BJP does not become fascist jusy because you say so. If we look at dog-fight in WB between Tinmool Congress and communists, they look more like fascists.

Do you even know what the word fascist means? Fascism came into existence because of Mussolini. The RSS trademarked Khaki shorts were inspired by Mussolini's brown shirts. That's another fact for you.

Fascism today means the politics of othering. No point of expanding on this further, you'll probably wont understand it.

No one is saying BJP is all clean. But they are better than Congress IMO. All other parties are just bunch of idiots.

They are not better than the Congress. The Congress may be crooks, corrupt, Gandhi family sycophants, but at least they are not fascists.

I assume you are a third front (which is non existant now) supporter. However this was just a flame.

I'm not any third front supporter. I'm not any front supporter.
It wasnt flame. It was fact. Two ABVP leaders were tried for killing Professor Sabharwal in Meerut. Fact.

This does not say whole ABVP is like this. Over simplification.

The member i was debating with asked me for a connection between BJP and Abhinav Bharat, i said Sadhvi Pragya was once part of the ABVP. Hence there is a connection. I did not comment on ABVP as a whole here. Learn to comprehend context.

But....there is no evidence so far.

There is overwhelming evidence. Read a proper investigative paper or magazine.

Those who killed are behind bars.

Wrong.

However over generalization!!

This makes no sense.

This was just rant.

On the contrary, it fits in perfectly with the ideology of BJP supporters. As Jungle asked before, why exactly do Hindu interests need to be looked after despite being an overwhelming majority? The fact that they are a majority ensures that they would be looked after. So why do you feel threatened so much?

Hehehe....you are showing your frustation.

Hardly. Merely elucidating why fascist organizations come into existence and why they survive. Nazi's in Germany could have only gained power in a country as wretched as the Wiemar Republic post WW1. Fact.

Well....currently Congress is in trouble and left is almost doomed.

Congress is hardly in trouble. They'll probably win the next general election as well. The ideology of the left can never really be doomed in a nation as unequal as India.

Where are the facts anyways??

They were in front of you. You do not have the perceptive power to see it.

 

[KS]

Facts did you say? Okay then -

Fact number 1 - In the BJP we have a party, whose founding ideologue, a certain coward called "Veer" Savarkar, openly idolized Mussolini, based his khaki based RSS morons on Mussolini's goons, openly supported the butcher of Muslims, etc.

Im not going to reply to all ur tall claims as ek_indian has already debunked all of them.

BTW are u the same Nemesis that was advising me abt abt decorum,civilized words,no personal attacks blah blah blah the other day....?

 

[Swift]

is that really a response?



I said "Veer" Savarkar was the founding ideologue of BJP and RSS. Not the founding member. Learn the difference.



When did i say BJP was responsible for low social indicators?



Do you even know what the word fascist means? Fascism came into existence because of Mussolini. The RSS trademarked Khaki shorts were inspired by Mussolini's brown shirts. That's another fact for you.

Fascism today means the politics of othering. No point of expanding on this further, you'll probably wont understand it.



They are not better than the Congress. The Congress may be crooks, corrupt, Gandhi family sycophants, but at least they are not fascists.



I'm not any third front supporter. I'm not any front supporter.
It wasnt flame. It was fact. Two ABVP leaders were tried for killing Professor Sabharwal in Meerut. Fact.



The member i was debating it asked me for a connection between BJP and Abhinav Bharat, i said Sadhvi Pragya was once part of the ABVP. Hence there is a connection. I did not comment on ABVP as a whole here. Learn to comprehend context.



There is overwhelming evidence. Read a proper investigative paper or magazine.



Wrong.



This makes no sense.



On the contrary, it fits in perfectly with the ideology of BJP supporters. As Jungle asked before, why exactly do Hindu interests need to be looked after despite being a overwhelming majority? The fact that they are a majority ensures that they would be looked after. So why do you feel threatened so much?



Hardly. Merely elucidating why fascist organizations come into existence and why they survive. Nazi's in Germany could have only gained power in a country as wretched as the Wiemar Republic post WW1. Fact.



Congress is hardly in trouble. They'll probably win the next general election as well. The ideology of the left can never really be doomed in a nation as unequal as India.



They were in front of you. You do not have the perceptive power to see it.

Apart from wearing Khaki , how can u equate RSS/BJP with Fascist's?

arent they part of the democratic political system bottom up. If any one is fascist its the Gandhi family which thinks they were born to rule India and consider it as there fiefdom. Heard about elections in Congress party?

apart from some ideological problems within BJP IS a democratic institution , here people / faces change, ideologies improvise as in any other democratic institution.

Thanks.

 

[Jungle]

i would still like an answer to my question as to wat threats do the majority face from the minorities?

 

[Swift]

^^^^^
Very well said. I never get the concept on how a majority can be threatened and needs a party to look after its interest. I would really like to know the value system of all BJP lovers here. What interests of the majority is the BJP looking after? To put it better, wat interests of Hindus are being threatened by the minorities?

BJP doesn't look after the majority interests , BJP looks after interest in Indians without discriminating on the basis of religion and treating them as vote banks.

Tell me how article 370 or uniform civil code is against the interests of Minorities, I can understand the concern about Ram Mandir.

To add, India being a secular country, why some sick parties have to bring minorty thing again and again like "they have first right on resources" why not all Indians have same right on resources. Cant you people sense a vote game here, I feel that these statements are doing more harm than anything, Just tell me how this statement is secular? And if BJP goes against such statements they are marked as rightists. At times I feel Congress is more rightist that even BJP.

 

[vsdoc]

National integration will come. Nothing and nobody can stop it. I see India today compared to the India of two decades ago when I was still a boy, and I see a sea change. And this is not empty nationalistic rhetoric on a Pakistani forum. It will come by working together. It will come by loving together, caste, and sect, and religion, and khap notwithstanding. It will come by fighting together, for what we are truly passionate about. Fighting amongst ourselves, and fighting together against an outsider. It will come by studying together. Forget politicians and parties. The new integrated united India of tomorrow is growing up in our classrooms today. Do not discount the importance of our schools and teachers. They have built our country. In the past, today, and tomorrow. It will come when every small child from the time he enters school is treated as an equal. Is taught to treat others as equals. And is instilled with the pride of being Indian first, foremost, and last. Nothing in between. What you do at home is up to you. Who you pray to is up to you. But as a society, you come together as Indians. That is what we learn in schools. That is what our kids are increasingly learning at home too. That is what they learn when they play together. In the homes where this message is still not heard strong, the change will come from within. From the young participating in India. From learning India. From growing India. The goons, and politicians, and separatists of any creed or form have already seen the writing on the wall.

Cheers, Doc

 

[KS]

Savarkar was nevertheless a RSS member and a proponent of a 'Hindu Rashtra'. He is known to be a mentor of Nathuram Ghodse - an RSS activist. Weather he left the organization later or not is irrelavent. Just pointing out wat kind of people have been their members. To add, people like Golwalkar were the 1st to propose a 2 nation theory. Do i need to say more?!

This is the hypocrisy i ve been saying all along....Wen Jinnah was perfectly justified in asking for a Muslim nation wats wrong in some people harbouring a thought for Hindu Nation.??

Logically their thought holds more ground as this has been traditionally a hindu majority country right from ancient times.

Wen u say people as bad just because they dont agree to ur POV..then thats the true definition of a Fascist.

 

[Jungle]

I totally support Uniform Civil Code. It was a sell off for votes. Just don't understand how does separate laws for Muslims affect the Majority?

As for article 370, similar provisions are there in other states as well. Why just point Kashmir out. Similar articles granting relative autonomy are in place in the north-east as well. It is an imperative in preserving the distinct cultural identity of those states.

 

[ek_indian]

@Nemesis:

Your first line was "Is that really a response".. I have already said where are the facts which says BJP is not so good or better than others.

(1) I am no supporter of Sadhvi (she is not respectable for this term). But the fact is, nothing is proved. MCOCA was put on her which is dropped by court.

The Pioneer > Online Edition : >> ATS suffers major setback

Your post was not having anything called facts.