India - National Integration: The Way Forward

[afako]

I do apologize.
You are a great statesman who would have stood shoulder to shoulder with Nehru and Jinnah and found an awesome solution.

And BTW, there already were three pieces.

Pakistan made 2.

We made 3

 

[Indian_Idol]

Hindus do not have any problems with Christians except Vatican actively supporting conversions by all means.

Look at the religions of indian origin i.e.

Hinduism
Sikhism.
Buddhism.
Jainism.

They are so intertwined. They do not preach hate against each other. The religious leaders from each of these religions give examples from gods/gurus of other religions.

For example, Hindu religious leaders always mention sacrifice and noble work done by Sikh Gurus.

Jain preachers give examples of Lord Rama and Shri Krishna in their sermons.

Highest buddist leader His Holiness Dalai Lama takes pride in addressing the devotees during Kumbh mela and talks about the vitues of Hinduism.

Sikh Gurus take pride in telling how Lord Shiva and Lord Krishna was inspiration to their Gurus also.

My point is if religions co-exist, then peace prevails automatically. However, when one starts to tell others that your god is not true god and only our god is true god, the problem starts.

i second that.. when a number of religion are present in a country, its the duty of the govt to have strict rules regarding the above mentioned thing. and i support missionary work as long as it does good for the people. there are good ones too..

and for the co-existence, what would you do if you are called as a british slave or alien in your own country???

 

[Jungle]

I am not saying that Congress is not to be blamed. For heaven's sake, this is not a Congress vs BJP thread. Still i'll reply to the above post.

What happened in 1984 was wrong. Period. So is killing of Hindus, Muslims , Christians. But at least the congress party had the decency to apologize in public of the happening then. People such as Tytler were not given a ticket to contest for Lok Sabha election. I am not saying that there was absolute justice, but some solace was given to the victims. But did the BJP apologize for Bombay riots, Babri demolition. Did Narendra Modi come forward and apologized? Instead they supported people like Varun Gandhi for sayin what he did. Are you saying that what Varun gandhi said in his election rally was justified.

And btw, wat do you mean by a 'few muslims' . As and when the riots have taken place, it is Muslims who have suffered the most. Be it Jabalpur, Bombay or Godhra. It is a known fact that on instances even the police were involved acting on the direction of Shiv Sena or BJP. I wouldn't answer the question on each party questioning religion due to my respect to the sensitivities of the people on this forum.

As for Afzal Guru, the plea for clemency is due because the judgement was based on circumstantial evidence. Capital punishment is avoided when the case is based on circumstantial evidence. He should definitely be hanged if he was responsible. But if there is even the slightest of doubts that he may be innocent, further investigation into the same becomes an imperative. There are certain discrepancies in his sentence and thats why the stay.

I have never said Congress hasn't had it's share of failure but it is also not the party that actually mandated killing your own people for the sake of votes.

 

[afako]

I am not saying that Congress is not to be blamed. For heaven's sake, this is not a Congress vs BJP thread. Still i'll reply to the above post.

What happened in 1984 was wrong. Period. So is killing of Hindus, Muslims , Christians. But at least the congress party had the decency to apologize in public of the happening then. People such as Tytler were not given a ticket to contest for Lok Sabha election. I am not saying that there was absolute justice, but some solace was given to the victims. But did the BJP apologize for Bombay riots, Babri demolition. Did Narendra Modi come forward and apologized? Instead they supported people like Varun Gandhi for sayin what he did. Are you saying that what Varun gandhi said in his election rally was justified.

Does Apologizing will get the Life of 4000 people?
Even Advani apologized for Babri, He was blasted as a communal.

Then how can MMS Apology be accepted.

Jagdish Tytler was not given a ticket beacuse of Public pressure.
Was he ever convicted?

Varun Gandhi went to Jail only for some Remarks whereas a person who killed 4000 people is roaming freely.

 

[username]

IMO religion, region and caste based parties like BJP,RSS,VHP,DMK,ADMK,etc are the first factor for the divisive nature of Our country.. and the second one is the illiteracy. the above mentioned political parties use the illiteracy of the people to gain their political advantage...

Election commission should have some monitoring mechanism to check this...

and above all i strongly condemn calling people minority and majority... India is not a religion based country and from where this majority minority $hit comes.
everyone is an INDIAN and why the hell should i be called as minority(i'm Christian)?? Religion is my own belief and what it has to do with my growth??
also the reservation things for religion and caste based should be stopped. this thing is another factor for this nature... if reservation has to be done it should be for the people who were financially backward irrespective of religion,region and caste...

Nope... I disagree with one point, DMK and ADMK are certainly not religion/caste based ...


DMK and ADMK both are misunderstood vastly that they are region based... but they are not... for example, when war was happening in Srilanka, certain people in TN were opposing in an undemocratic way about India's support to Srilanka. This was clamped down by DMK (the current ruling party) without ever the Central govt even knowing it... (people were arrested within the same day even)... and very harsh laws were used against the people who were arrested...

When I say undemocratic way it is not about violance, it was just a mere speech against soverignity for which they were arrested...

if they are truely region based... they would have let it go as people are expressing their feelings for regional identity connected people agressively...

there was one more incident happened in which is a very stupid thing to do... (recent times, if we take that it will go for a long debate, do not take that unless you feel necessary, if you don't know don't ask won't tell)...

there could also be another reason why people might feel that they are region based, they stress more on local language being the ruling language of the state... but hey, afterall it is a diverse country, some people see religion as their identity and they are given the freedom, same way some people see language as their identity so they must be given freedom to have that as a ruling language of their state as simple as that...
just because of this they aren't doing any region based politics, afterall one of the most loved CM of TN is MGR who is from another state of the country... if there is region based politics prominant then MGR could not have been the head of a party much less one of the most beloved CM...

 

[RobbieS]

Although I am not too fond of BJP's Hindutva card I must say that when in power, their policies were anything but Hindutva focused (apart from a few incidents of saffronisation of history textbooks) and they dealt with issues with equanimity, regardless of the religion involved.

But by continuing to flash the Hindutva card at every other national debate, they kind of display a lack of sensitivity to the insecurities of the minorities in India. Though India is a secular nation we have to agree that democracy brings forward a system where the people of the dominant religion (in this case Hinduism) dominate most spheres of social life, economics and politics. And as a religious minority there is a certain underlying current of being less powerful or resourceful than the others. To allay such fears its absolutely imperative that a national political party desists from any overt displays favoring the majority religion. This is whats missing from BJP's posture many times. And this is specially true when they are out of power as that's when a political party is prone to desperation. Remember the Rath Yatra's of the early 90's? The Babri Masjid? The BJP could have easily avoided all that but they wanted to pander to the Hindu middle class and were eager to re-dress historical wrongs. They had pretty good people in their ranks, like Jaswant Singh, Yashwant Sinha but the real kings were RSS bred Advani, MM Joshi and Vajpayee.

I am not saying that Congress' ways in dealing with the minority are brilliant. Using the minorities as a votebank is a trick perfected by them. And they still have the matter of the 1984 riots which is an open would on the body of Sikh consciousness. But somehow, I think a minority person would be much happier voting for Congress than BJP.

 

[Indian_Idol]

Nope... I disagree with one point, DMK and ADMK are certainly not religion/caste based ...


DMK and ADMK both are misunderstood vastly that they are region based... but they are not...

yes they are region based parties.. DMK(Dravida Munetra Kzhalagam) which means its for the Upliftment of the Dravidians.. the party's basic policy is not for the whole of the country it concerns only with the people of Tamilnadu or south India. and the same with ADMK,MDMK,etc..

and for the Srilanka thing, the support of LTTE from Tamilnadu reduced with the assasination of our PM. Our(people of TN) concerns were only for the brutal killing of the tamil people by srilankan army. Even CM of TN raised this issue with the PM and only after his assurance CM was convinced..

 

[i am your fear]

National Integration: The Way Forward

thread by Pakistani member

nice to see

but there should be one change the name it should be about Pakistan

 

[Jungle]

Does Apologizing will get the Life of 4000 people?
Even Advani apologized for Babri, He was blasted as a communal.

Then how can MMS Apology be accepted.

Jagdish Tytler was not given a ticket beacuse of Public pressure.
Was he ever convicted?

Varun Gandhi went to Jail only for some Remarks whereas a person who killed 4000 people is roaming freely.

Apologizing will not bring back the people who died, but it is better than not apologizing at all. It is a shame tytler is roaming freely, but so is Narendra Modi, Thakeray and RSS chiefs.

 

[chachachoudhary]

Jungle;923288]What happened in 1984 was wrong. Period. So is killing of Hindus, Muslims , Christians. But at least the congress party had the decency to apologize in public of the happening then. People such as Tytler were not given a ticket to contest for Lok Sabha election. I am not saying that there was absolute justice, but some solace was given to the victims. But did the BJP apologize for Bombay riots, Babri demolition. Did Narendra Modi come forward and apologized?

Mr. Vajpayee himself went a step further of apology and condemned the riots and termed it as a blot on indian history. Ask relatives of sikhs, if they really got any solace by mere apology. Now, Mr. Narendra Modi is held accountable because he was chief minister when riots happened in Gujarat. So, by this logic, Mr. Sharad Pawar, now agricultural minister, was chief minister when riots happened in 1992-93 should also be held accountable. Morever, Mr. Sharad Pawar has been charged of letting Mr. Dawood Ibrahim escape mumbai after bomb blasts in mumbai.

Mr. Narendra Modi, as a chief minister, faced with open mind and open heart the 8-hour interrogation by a team appointed by supreme court. He ordered the police to shoot the rioters and let me tell your police shot over 300 rioters because of his strict instructions to control riots. However, no such thing happened during 1984 riots. There was nobody to control the riots. The massacre continued for 3 continuous days. On the other hand, in 1984, Bal Thackeray in Mumbai warned congress people in maharasthra not to touch sikhs in Maharasthra.

Instead they supported people like Varun Gandhi for sayin what he did. Are you saying that what Varun gandhi said in his election rally was justified.

No body said he was justified. He was let free by law of the land. Please also remember congress minister from Andhra who made similar statements. So, was he punished?

As for Afzal Guru, the plea for clemency is due because the judgement was based on circumstantial evidence. Capital punishment is avoided when the case is based on circumstantial evidence. He should definitely be hanged if he was responsible. But if there is even the slightest of doubts that he may be innocent, further investigation into the same becomes an imperative. There are certain discrepancies in his sentence and thats why the stay.

Wrong, his judgement has been upheld by Supreme Court of India. So, there is no scope for further investigation. Please know the law of the land before making comments. Remember, Ms. Sheila Dikshi herself has admitted just 2 days back that Congress home minister Shivraj Patil pressurized to held back the Afzal's file. There is no doubt of his innocence as the judgement has been delivered by the highest court of this country.

I have never said Congress hasn't had it's share of failure but it is also not the party that actually mandated killing your own people for the sake of votes.

Really?, watch TV. Everybody, from pilot who flew Warren Anderson to secretary who released Anderson has admitted that Mr. Arjun Singh, congress chief minister, ordered by Rajiv Gandhi, then congress prime minister, helped warren anderson after Bhopal gas tragedy that killed 25,000 people even before trial began. Life of 25,000 people is not a joke.

Just a 2 days back, commissioner of police of Sangli, has confessed that the riots in Sangli in maharasthra were actually planned and commited on NCP Mayor's instructions. He has presented proofs also, but Congress is mum on this.

 

[chachachoudhary]

Apologizing will not bring back the people who died, but it is better than not apologizing at all. It is a shame tytler is roaming freely, but so is Narendra Modi, Thakeray and RSS chiefs.

In which case, RSS chief is charged. Which RSS chief are you referring to?

As far as my knowledge, nobody has charged any RSS chiefs so far in any case. Please enlighten us.

Please post a link where any RSS chief is chargesheeted by law of land.

 

[ek_indian]

My take is very small: Congress hatao desh Bachao (Remove Congress save country).

 

[chachachoudhary]

My take is very small: Congress hatao desh Bachao (Remove Congress save country).

I second that.

Plus, I even go one step further. People of india should come together and choose the candidates strictly on their merits and not on religion, caste, creed or even party. Let us bury this ugly debate of secular and communal. Minority community should realize that they are being taken for a ride. There is no marked improvement in their overall condition in the last 63 years because those who come to power on their votes want them to stay like this.

India needs one full term of really honest 300+ MPs with a vision.

 

[KS]

So This thread is becoming a BJP Vs Congress thing, eh?

Unfortunately due to the bringing in its name by some member.

The Congress has been around for 125 years. BJP, 30 years. The Congress had their ups (Independence) and downs (The Emergency, among others). Until a few years ago, they were in big trouble. Arguably, the modern Indian economy was born in the early 90's liberalization. The good thing about them is that they have (recently) started learning from their mistakes. They know that 1984 was a huge mistake, as the BJP now knows that the Gujarat riots and Ram Janmabhoomi episode was an error.

The Congress has more downs after the independence movement than the BJP relatively.

You can either choose to hang on to the injustices of history, or move on with a lesson learnt. There IS NO middle ground.

Agreed.

The Congress needs a sensible, powerful counterweight. All democracies do. The core of the BJP was founded by strong and wise men- they need to consolidate that and move beyond religion. Feed people, give them jobs.

This is wat puzzles me....why dont u guys try teling the same to Congress,SP,RJD etc etc...Or is it only wen Hindu sentiments come in they r regarded Communal..?

And Yes, COMPARATIVELY......

The Congress is secular and the BJP communal. Anyone who thinks otherwise is..................

Secular means No religion plays a role in the govt.affairs or politics.
No where it is mentioned that Secularism means the Majority religion is to kept away and the minorities are given a free ride.
If there r parties that panders to the minorities there has to be a party to represent Majority wish as well.

 

[KS]

What happened in 1984 was wrong. Period. So is killing of Hindus, Muslims , Christians. But at least the congress party had the decency to apologize in public of the happening then. People such as Tytler were not given a ticket to contest for Lok Sabha election. I am not saying that there was absolute justice, but some solace was given to the victims.

Wat a convinient excuse for butrchering 4000 Sikhs in Delhi.

Tytler was not given the seat because Congress had ethics...Initially he was to be given a ticket but because of the huge uproar it caused in delhi and Punjab he was denied the ticket just for the fear of loosing the Sikh votes.

But did the BJP apologize for Bombay riots, Babri demolition. Did Narendra Modi come forward and apologized? Instead they supported people like Varun Gandhi for sayin what he did. Are you saying that what Varun gandhi said in his election rally was justified.

Didnt Vajpayee aplogise for the riots...Of course u ppl with colored eyes wont notice it.
Comparing Delhi 1984 and Guj 2002 is like comparing aplles and oranges.
The situation leading to them were downright different.

BTW didn an Andhra Congress MP threaten to cut the heads of those who oppose Muslims..that is perfectly acceptable i think.

And btw, wat do you mean by a 'few muslims' . As and when the riots have taken place, it is Muslims who have suffered the most. Be it Jabalpur, Bombay or Godhra. It is a known fact that on instances even the police were involved acting on the direction of Shiv Sena or BJP. I wouldn't answer the question on each party questioning religion due to my respect to the sensitivities of the people on this forum.

Godhra....it was 60 Hindu pilgrims who were gruesomely burnt to death by Muslim fanatics.
Atleast get ur facts right before going on a rant rampage.

As for Afzal Guru, the plea for clemency is due because the judgement was based on circumstantial evidence. Capital punishment is avoided when the case is based on circumstantial evidence. He should definitely be hanged if he was responsible. But if there is even the slightest of doubts that he may be innocent, further investigation into the same becomes an imperative. There are certain discrepancies in his sentence and thats why the stay.

i guess the Supreme court judges are much more learned and well-versed in the IPC to know wether the death penalty is applicable or not than some jhola walah human rights activist.

I have never said Congress hasn't had it's share of failure but it is also not the party that actually mandated killing your own people for the sake of votes.

Mandated killing for votes....?
Knock knock....forgot godhra.....who killed whom..?