India : Muslim family forced to leave theatre for not standing during national anthem

[Nilgiri]

As for the muslim family , i don't know whether they did it due to religious or personal reasons , but they indeed did the right thing. Islam doesn't allow either singing or standing up for national anthem and muslims should not do that. Not to mention Islam prohibits music and nationalism. But more importantly what were they doing in a place of corruption like a movie theater?

What are you? The Taliban?

 

[Luffy 500]

What are you? The Taliban?

A proud muslim.

 

[Hyperion]

My position is pretty simple........ as Pakistan is facing a whole different shit-storm, and the quality (read, not quantity) of nutters is way more radicalized, therefore I'd give them a taste of their own medicine.............different case, different analogy........... "stupid Qadri, kill Qadri, execute his abettors".............. the radicals in Pakistan maybe in minority, however, very vocal minority, and there is only one way to shut them, should I open the bag of worms here on the forum, how they were shut in such a short period of time? Now back to India, in India, from my own pov, the quantity and quality of nutters is growing at an exceptional rate, way more than Pakistan, at least viz a viz population, and the modi koolaid seems to be doing a kickass job, THEREFORE, the family INDEED was as stupid as hell. If they needed to protest at anything, I'm sure, they could have done it in a way and in a place where they wouldn't have been made the target. I have no sympathy for people who have no regard for their own lives and of those near and dear to them. Stupidity is color blind, and religionless. By all definitions they were retarded to test such hot waters.

My lack of patience for religious nutcases has gone down several notches in the past few months, and I'm not suggesting you're a religious nutcase (far from it), but that when I see arguments that use rationale similar to that of religious nut cases (even if the intent is the opposite), I can't let it go.

Let me paraphrase the excerpt from your post I quoted above, "the situation in Pakistan is pretty much sensitized, you know it, I know it, I bet the Ahmadi/Blasphemer knows it as well, hence my statement of "stupid Ahmadi/Salman Taseer" "arrogant Ahmadi/Salman Taseer".

How is your position any different from those of religious nut-cases, even if the intent (promote nationalism over religion) is well meaning?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I don't know where you live or what it is like over there but in India forcing the police to spend time and effort building a case and investigating something like not standing up for a national anthem is not worth the effort, I have seen policemen letting the air out of the tires of bicyclists for stupidly zig zagging through traffic, quick simple knock for doing something stupid and no doubt more effective than a challan.

Perhaps you should ask your elected officials to focus on 'fixing the broken systems and institutions in India' instead of 'make in India'.

If this family was beaten up or man handled in any way I would be agreeing with you, no one has the right to dispense violence BUT not a hair on their head was hurt. All this family got was an earful, if they had not got up and left the management would have been called in no doubt. That is how real life works, you escalate on a needed basis. This family was disrespectful and they got a little disrespect right back. .

The family and their small child were subjected to harassment, hostility and (using the same argument as yours above about broken institutions and systems) justified fear of physical violence by the ranting and raving mob surrounding them. The family needs to file cases against the patrons confronting them for 'disturbing public order', 'harassment and threats of violence', and sue the theater owners for financial compensation over their inability to maintain public order and in failing to prevent the aforementioned patrons from harassing and threatening the family with their little child.

 

[Nilgiri]

Civilized societies do not suspend constitutional protections because our 'sentiments are hurt'

Is the US a civilized society? Or for that matter is any society civilized? Which societies do you have in mind?

 

[Mamsalaphala]

Look I agree with a lot of what you are saying. The big problem is that they chased away these guys and they are not going to be facing the law anytime soon. Short term impulse basically drove away a better long term justice and in the end nothing gets properly addressed.

If I was there, my reaction while gathering around them would not be to drive them away, but to ensure they stayed put while the management and police arrived to sort things out.

Driving away people like this through mob vigilantism is a poor alternative imo....but one thats better than nothing for sure. If you want to disagree with that, thats your prerogative.

And I have to believe in the theory to work, but accept that at times practicalities will trump it no matter what....because we are all humans in the end.

But then you cant go about justifiying and glorifying it over the "theory"...when you did not give the theory a chance to even operate.

Its good they are not facing the law. This kind of justice provides for a lasting impression and behaviour modification.

If arrested, it only provides the Cops to take a bribe from him and letting him go.

Both are forms of punishment, one in which you are humiliated, other in which you are blackmailed into giving money and encouraging corruption at the same time.

The First option is ALWAYS the better option and that is what happened. FAR better than calling Cops.

It actually served Long Term Justice. He and his family will now think twice about showing disrespect to the Nation. they have learnt to respect others, because others have considered him part of their society and have insisted he act appropriately. Sending him to jail would only turn him into a criminal and his resentment will only increase.

Do you really think you can find cops inside a Mall in Mumbai ?

Even if you go and call them and tell them that a man is not standing up for the Anthem, they will ask you to slap him a few times an let him go ..... that is if they don't laugh at you first.

Meanwhile the movie would have started and you would have missed half of it for no faults of yours.


End of the day don't pledge your common sense to "logic".

 

[Sky lord]

Perhaps you should ask your elected officials to focus on 'fixing the broken systems and institutions in India' instead of 'make in India'.

We are asking them to do both simultaneously, thank you.

If they were so concerned about their small child with them, Maybe they should have thought twice before deciding to breAk the law when they had a small child with them.really these folk were either really stupid or really arrogant.

 

[danger007]

My position is pretty simple........ as Pakistan is facing a whole different shit-storm, and the quality (read, not quantity) of nutters is way more radicalized, therefore I'd give them a taste of their own medicine.............different case, different analogy........... "stupid Qadri, kill Qadri, execute his abettors".............. the radicals in Pakistan maybe in minority, however, very vocal minority, and there is only one way to shut them, should I open the bag of worms here on the forum, how they were shut in such a short period of time? Now back to India, in India, from my own pov, the quantity and quality of nutters is growing at an exceptional rate, way more than Pakistan, at least viz a viz population, and the modi koolaid seems to be doing a kickass job, THEREFORE, the family INDEED was as stupid as hell. If they needed to protest at anything, I'm sure, they could have done it in a way and in a place where they wouldn't have been made the target. I have no sympathy for people who have no regard for their own lives and of those near and dear to them. Stupidity is color blind, and religionless. By all definitions they were retarded to test such hot waters.

I don't think this matter related to Modi anyway.. similar incidents happened before... the family should have respect National anthem... and the rest... the bald head guy tried to be hero in that situation.. what if similar incident happened when the bald head is with his wife and kids?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Is the US a civilized society? Or for that matter is any society civilized? Which societies do you have in mind?

A slightly verbose answer ...The process of evolution never ends, since we are imperfect beings with imperfect minds that come up with imperfect interpretations of the constitution and laws that we ourselves wrote. The US constitution was the same when slavery and segregation was institutionalized as it was when the US courts ruled such laws and practices unconstitutional. My personal yardstick (rather the most critical parameter) for viewing a society as 'more civilized' would be the level of constitutional protections actually implemented for members of said society.

In the context above, the US and many Western European societies are more 'civilized' (or have evolved further) than many Eastern societies, generally speaking.

 

[Hyperion]

In the wider context, it actually is........ if laws had prevailed and intolerance was subdued with an iron hand, you wouldn't be seeing 99% of such incidents, at least on Hindu-Muslim front that are happening today........ everything is connected........ always.............

I don't think this matter related to Modi anyway.

 

[Nilgiri]

Its good they are not facing the law. This kind of justice provides for a lasting impression and behaviour modification.

If arrested, it only provides the Cops to take a bribe from him and let him go.

Both are forms of punishment, one in which you are humiliated, other in which you are blackmailed into giving money and encouraging corruption at the same time.

The First option is ALWAYS the better option and that is what happened. FAR better than calling Cops.

It actually served Long Term Justice. He and his family will now think twice about showing disrespect to the Nation. they have learnt to respect others, because others have considered him part of their society and have insisted he act appropriately. Sending him to jail would only turn him into a criminal and his resentment will only increase.

Do you really think you can find cops inside a Mall in Mumbai ?

Even if you go and call them and tell them that a man is not standing up for the Anthem, they will ask you to slap him a few times an let him go ;lol: ..... that is if they don't laught at you first.

Meanwhile the movie would have started and you would have missed half of it for no faults of yours.


End of the day don't pledge your common sense to "logic".

So lets get rid of the cops altogether. They obviously are just a drain on resources when we can just let the vigilantes do the job all the time.

You dont have to go out and find a cop lol. Dial them and ask them to show up at the area (on the non emergency number). Thats basically what will happen anyway when you bring in the theatre management.

In fact I am wondering if any of those people in the "hecklers" were actually some of the management themselves in response....again we dont have the full story here so I am just going by one possible version of the story when on the ground it may have been very different to begin with.

In the context above, the US and many Western European societies are more 'civilized' (or have evolved further) than many Eastern societies, generally speaking.

Well you will be excited to know that the NBA extra-judicially suspended a Muslim player for not standing up for the US national anthem....and then they harrassed him to the point where he "compromised" in standing up but keeping his face down and eyes closed "in prayer". Eventually he left the NBA itself quite early in his career because of it.

So do you count that as mob vigilantism then?

Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf: Here, gone and quickly forgotten - SBNation.com

 

[Mamsalaphala]

So lets get rid of the cops altogether. They obviously are just a drain on resources when we can just let the vigilantes do the job all the time.

You dont have to go out and find a cop lol. Dial them and ask them to show up at the area (on the non emergency number). Thats basically what will happen anyway when you bring in the theatre management.

In fact I am wondering if any of those people in the "hecklers" were actually some of the management themselves in response....again we dont have the full story here so I am just going by one possible version of the story when on the ground it may have been very different to begin with.

Let me give you a small piece of Free Advice.

NEVER get involved with COPS in your life. You will Live to regret it. They are worse than Criminals.

Go to them ONLY if you know someone high up in the IPS or Minister level. But its still not worth it.

This is Reality. Not your Theoretical make belief world where court rooms look like movie sets.

This debate has run its course. I am of the firm belief that what happened was for the best. A man who showed disrespect was heckled and was humiliated and made to leave a public space for disrespecting others.

The man would have been worse off if he was handed over to cops. He would have to burn through favours to get himself out if he lands with a bad cop.

 

[Sky lord]

So lets get rid of the cops altogether. They obviously are just a drain on resources when we can just let the vigilantes do the job all the time.

C'mon you are taking it to an extreme to make it sound ridiculous. IRL everyone uses common sense. If you maid steals rice from the pantry you are not likely to call the cops, if a Nigerian prince empties out your bank account you will....dude you live in Canada not Mumbai....mamsalphala has a point

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Stupidity is color blind, and religionless. By all definitions they were retarded to test such hot waters.

I doubt the intent of the family was to 'test the waters'. Do you really think this was the first time they went to the theater and the first time they chose not to stand up during the anthem?

You can't blame the family (the victim in this case) for somehow randomly determining how prevalent extremist views are in their society when they (presumably) never encountered such behavior before.

In Pakistan, yes, attacks against alleged blasphemers and Ahmadis are commonplace and publicized enough to where people exercise caution in public places, but I had not realized Indian society had become radicalized to such a degree that this poor family had to suffer harassment and intimidation, when at a theater with their child, over something so frivolous as 'not standing up during a national anthem'.

 

[Mamsalaphala]

C'mon you are taking it to an extreme to make it sound ridiculous. IRL everyone uses common sense. If you maid steals rice from the pantry you are not likely to call the cops, if a Nigerian prince empties out your bank account you will....dude you live in Canada not Mumbai....mamsalphala has a point

One of these days I will tell you the story about how my car got stolen and how I lost more money to cops than to the thief (who incidental was my driver)