India may pull in Israeli IMI for next tank Project

[Derolo]

Overweight by what measure? The T-90S is a medium class MBT, Arjun is a Heavy class MBT.

The Arjun actually has lower ground pressure than the T-90S so..............

By the measure that the Govt. was forced to buy new railcars, new planes (c-17) and a whole new logistical system just for these MBT's who by the way happen to be the world's most expensive MBT's.

 

[Derolo]

arjun is heavy class tank with Ability Engage Moving Targets with Great Accuracy.Israelis find it great.

I see they aren't buying any? What a shock

 

[Omega007]

Another false flag.

 

[Abingdonboy]

By the measure that the Govt. was forced to buy new railcars, new planes (c-17) and a whole new logistical system just for these MBT's who by the way happen to be the world's most expensive MBT's.

The C-17s were not bought specifically for the Arjun. But yes new infrastructure had to come up for the Arjun, the Arjun was always going to need a new set of infrastructure (as with any new piece of equipment). Do you think if the IA had bought the Abrams or Merkava they wouldn't have needed new infrastructure? The IA is transitioning from medium weight Soviet/Russian tanks to heavier class MBTs built around a Western design philosophy.

Yes the Arjun is amongst the world's most expensive for 2 reasons:
1) Limited orders placed to date (DRDO have said they can bring the unit price down considerably if serious orders are made- economies of scale).
2) The Arjun is a very advanced tank with some very advanced features which are going to cost a lot of money.

 

[ni8mare]

do

The C-17s were not bought specifically for the Arjun. But yes new infrastructure had to come up for the Arjun, the Arjun was always going to need a new set of infrastructure (as with any new piece of equipment). Do you think if the IA had bought the Abrams or Merkava they wouldn't have needed new infrastructure? The IA is transitioning from medium weight Soviet/Russian tanks to heavier class MBTs built around a Western design philosophy.

Yes the Arjun is amongst the world's most expensive for 2 reasons:
1) Limited orders placed to date (DRDO have said they can bring the unit price down considerably if serious orders are made- economies of scale).
2) The Arjun is a very advanced tank with some very advanced features which are going to cost a lot of money.

do not bang your head to wall

 

[sancho]

Well,in case of the LCA,can't disagree with what you said.But Arjun is difference story altogether because from what I've come to know so far,some of the Army top brass are as much to blame if not more as DRDO.

Wouldn't surprise me, but the main problem with DRDO developments is, that they do it as they want it and doesn't include the customer into the project from the start. They say we build a heavy MBT and ask IA only for the minimum requirements it should fulfill, but that doesn't mean that the army needs a heavy MBT. Same was the case for LCA, where they decided to develop the smallest light class fighter, which surely was never a requirement of IAF and now they have to extend the size again, to fit upgrades. Or look at AMCA, where again DRDO wants to develop a stealth fighter, not because IAF asked them to do so because IAF has a requirement for it.
As long as we have this discrepancy between DRDO the developer and the forces as the customer, the indigenous products will remain with a limited use.

In any case,Krestel is too lightly armored to be a frontline ICV of the future battle field.Just take a look at the trend world over - be it the Germans,the Turks,the Americans,the Koreans,Israelis and even the Ruskies all of them are going for 35-40 ton class ICVs.

Apart of the German Boxer no wheeled IFV comes even close to 35t, even with maximum add on armor and the Boxer is actually a bad yardstick because it's aimed on maximum protection in counter-insurgency roles in Afghanistan or Iraq. That's not really what IA might need to protect our borders, besides that the Kestrel so far don't have add on amor displayed if I'm not wrong, but then again, IA specifically asked for lighter IFV's.

 

[Abingdonboy]

In any case,Krestel is too lightly armored to be a frontline ICV of the future battle field.Just take a look at the trend world over - be it the Germans,the Turks,the Americans,the Koreans,Israelis and even the Ruskies all of them are going for 35-40 ton class ICVs.Because they have understood that unless and until we can come up with some revolutionary break through in material science,there is simply no way to give the ICVs adequate protection against ever increasing threat of modern anti armor weapons and also keep the weight low at the same time.So India can not be different in this regard either,unless of course we want to knowingly throw our soldiers into the jaws of almost certain death.

Well the Kestral is a wheeled ICV, one should compare it to the Stryker. I think the IA would do well to raise a similar concept around the Kestrel that the US army has around their Strykers with the Stryker Brigade Combat Team (SBCT).

 

[Echo_419]

The C-17s were not bought specifically for the Arjun. But yes new infrastructure had to come up for the Arjun, the Arjun was always going to need a new set of infrastructure (as with any new piece of equipment). Do you think if the IA had bought the Abrams or Merkava they wouldn't have needed new infrastructure? The IA is transitioning from medium weight Soviet/Russian tanks to heavier class MBTs built around a Western design philosophy.

Yes the Arjun is amongst the world's most expensive for 2 reasons:
1) Limited orders placed to date (DRDO have said they can bring the unit price down considerably if serious orders are made- economies of scale).
2) The Arjun is a very advanced tank with some very advanced features which are going to cost a lot of money.

Looks like a green to me
On topic IA should concentrate in building Infra for Heavier MBTs instead of crying for Weight reduction
You need that kind of stuff in a tank you sure as hell will get a heavier MBT

 

[Omega007]

Wouldn't surprise me, but the main problem with DRDO developments is, that they do it as they want it and doesn't include the customer into the project from the start. They say we build a heavy MBT and ask IA only for the minimum requirements it should fulfill, but that doesn't mean that the army needs a heavy MBT. Same was the case for LCA, where they decided to develop the smallest light class fighter, which surely was never a requirement of IAF and now they have to extend the size again, to fit upgrades. Or look at AMCA, where again DRDO wants to develop a stealth fighter, not because IAF asked them to do so because IAF has a requirement for it.
As long as we have this discrepancy between DRDO the developer and the forces as the customer, the indigenous products will remain with a limited use.



Apart of the German Boxer no wheeled IFV comes even close to 35t, even with maximum add on armor and the Boxer is actually a bad yardstick because it's aimed on maximum protection in counter-insurgency roles in Afghanistan or Iraq. That's not really what IA might need to protect our borders, besides that the Kestrel so far don't have add on amor displayed if I'm not wrong, but then again, IA specifically asked for lighter IFV's.

Well,I was talking about the tracked ones.I don't think Indian Army would go for a wheeled ICV.

 

[Abingdonboy]

On topic IA should concentrate in building Infra for Heavier MBTs instead of crying for Weight reduction
You need that kind of stuff in a tank you sure as hell will get a heavier MBT

I don't know where the notion that the IA isn't doing this comes from. They have initiated this process some time back.

Ans I don't know where it has been proven the IA are "crying" for weight reductions. They very much on board with heavier ICVs and MBTs now, they understand this is the future.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Well,I was talking about the tracked ones.I don't think Indian Army would go for a wheeled ICV.

FICV is for both wheeled and tracked vehicles bro, clearly the IA has a desire for both.

 

[Echo_419]

I don't know where the notion that the IA isn't doing this comes from. They have initiated this process some time back.

Ans I don't know where it has been proven the IA are "crying" for weight reductions. They very much on board with heavier ICVs and MBTs now, they understand this is the future.

Then they should order more Arjun MBTs
There was a new while back that DRDO will develop a Indeginious engine if Army orders Arjun in sufficient numbers how great is that

 

[Omega007]

FICV is for both wheeled and tracked vehicles bro, clearly the IA has a desire for both.

I know but I'm not so sure anymore.I mean,Indian Army has over 1500 variants of BTR wheeled APCs but they had put them into reserve even when they were relatively new.Lets see what has future kept for us.

 

[sancho]

Well we both know the LCA mess is down to DRDO, the IAF, initial over ambitious targets and certain external factors.

Not really, the external factors are only an excuse and a result of DRDO's bad planings, since nobody forced them to go for US industry for systems of the fighter. Nor has it anything to do with IAF targets, to require 4th gen multi role fighter, or to adjust the requirements when the project has more than a decade delay.

The FMBT is not to clear up any mess but a future requirement of the IA's (like the IAF's 5th ten requirements) to fight future wars and has nothing to do with the Arjun issues.

Not really, since FMBT doesn't offer any NG capabilities that Arjun doesn't have, or couldn't get with upgrades, like it is the case between AMCA and LCA. The main idea is to develop a smaller and lighter MBT, that can be used in a wider area in and around India, so to counter the disadvantages Arjun currently offers and which partially limits it's orders.

 

[Derolo]

The C-17s were not bought specifically for the Arjun. But yes new infrastructure had to come up for the Arjun, the Arjun was always going to need a new set of infrastructure (as with any new piece of equipment). Do you think if the IA had bought the Abrams or Merkava they wouldn't have needed new infrastructure? The IA is transitioning from medium weight Soviet/Russian tanks to heavier class MBTs built around a Western design philosophy.

Yes the Arjun is amongst the world's most expensive for 2 reasons:
1) Limited orders placed to date (DRDO have said they can bring the unit price down considerably if serious orders are made- economies of scale).
2) The Arjun is a very advanced tank with some very advanced features which are going to cost a lot of money.

Please don't say such things to me as if I'm some ignorant child.

Which purpose does C-17 serve in Republic of India which IL-76MD cannot? Name one thing. Apart from transporting Arjun.

Not IA but DRDO made this tank. DRDO could have stuck to western design philosophy at anything upto 48 tons.

Reasons-
1. 366 orders placed. Many contemporary tanks have far less orders are far cheaper and far more superior
2. LOL. Are you serious?