India "may" buy more SU-30 Mki's instead of Rafale

[SpArK]

Ball is in France's court: India on Rafale deal

January 4, 2015 Last Updated at 13:30

The multi-billion dollar Rafale fighter jet contract with France has run into rough weather over a guarantee clause and steep rise in price with India making it clear that the ball is in France's court as it looks at the option of buying more Russian Sukhoi-30 MKI warplanes as a back-up plan.

India is insisting that Dassault Aviation, which manufactures Rafale, cannot renege on the Request for Proposal (RFP) clauses, which it had initially agreed to.

The situation has come to such a level that France has been forced to send an empowered delegation later this month to "solve all remaining issues" to salvage the contract.

A top Defence Ministry official here had this week admitted that there were problems and said India could consider buying more Russian-made Sukhoi-30 planes if the proposed deal with France collapsed.

Recalling the last month's meeting between Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar and his French counterpart, sources said French "were told categorically to stick to the RFP".

"The ball is in France's court," the sources said adding that if the "RFP is adhered to, the deal can be wrapped up soon".

They claimed that while the deal was initially for about Rs 42,000 crore, French are seeking a higher price now. This, the sources said, has put the price at a "little more than double the cost".

Dassault did not comment on queries sent by PTI to it.

The French Rafale and European Eurofighter Typhoon were the only one left standing after years of tests on technical and other aspects.

"Rafale was selected in 2012 since it was the lowest bidder. The difference in cost with the second bidder was razor thin. With cost now more than double, how can it be the lowest bidder," the sources said, explaining why the negotiation for a final contract has been taking so much time.

Another point of contention is the guarantee clause under which Rafale has to stand guarantee for the planes that would be manufactured by state-owned HAL.

As per the RFP issued in 2007, the first 18 jets are to be imported and the rest 108 manufactured under licence by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL).

Ball is in France's court: India on Rafale deal | Business Standard News

 

[cerberus]

at least the mki is still superior to anything the Chinese or Pakistanis have.

No j-11b is superior as it use AESA.india should by upgraded "super sukhoi"

 

[syedali73]

Amazing level of blackmailing. So the French should sell the fighters for the price quoted two years earlier. Even a small time merchant wont sell you goods on a two years old price and here we are talking about state-of-art fighter jet system.

 

[holysaturn]

There has to be a good balance between quantity and quality ,like the americans in ww2,they were neither high quality and low numbers as the luftwaffe nor the low quality high quantity as the Red Air Force.
Buying the Rafale is a sellout of quantity. More than 22 billion for 126 planes has little semblance ,we are not France with a small border and huge budget to afford these BMW's.

Amazing level of blackmailing. So the French should sell the fighters for the price quoted two years earlier. Even a small time merchant wont sell you goods on a two years old price and here we are talking about state-of-art fighter jet system.

Correct,but don't you think going back on commitments in the RFP is not fair,they should have voiced their concerns back then. And more than twice the quoted cost doesnt seem palpable from the inflation point of view(Considering the contract also takes care of inflation and exchange variations to some extent).

 

[SrNair]

Amazing level of blackmailing. So the French should sell the fighters for the price quoted two years earlier. Even a small time merchant wont sell you goods on a two years old price and here we are talking about state-of-art fighter jet system.

So what??
We are the one who spending 20+ billion $ They cantake it or leave it.We will get Su ,a system that we mastered and can do upgradation .

 

[anant_s]

Is it really the Sinking Feeling setting in or is some grand and devious plan by Rafale haters really started to work?
I'm getting more and more confused by the day. I think French government might have to intervene.

 

[cerberus]

So what??
We are the one who spending 20+ billion $ They cantake it or leave it.We will get Su ,a system that we mastered and can do upgradation .

If this deal failed it's a biggest jolt on Dassault Rafale production line and it future sale prospects.

 

[anant_s]

Couldn't help noticing this

Three threads with Russians mocking French and then French returning the favor.

Crazy eh!

 

[halupridol]

Amazing level of blackmailing. So the French should sell the fighters for the price quoted two years earlier. Even a small time merchant wont sell you goods on a two years old price and here we are talking about state-of-art fighter jet system.

wrong choice of words,,,,its called bargaining

 

[SledgeHammer]

Amazing level of blackmailing. So the French should sell the fighters for the price quoted two years earlier. Even a small time merchant wont sell you goods on a two years old price and here we are talking about state-of-art fighter jet system.

First, French cannot alter the terms of the bid that they agreed to previously.

Second, price escalation from the quoted price should happen as per the exchange rates and inflation index, govt. need to look into the finer details to judge if the increased price is fair or valid.

@Abingdonboy any idea why the price has increased so much in last 2-3 years?

 

[Skillrex]

Correct me if i am wrong.. Isnt Su more of a air superiority specialised in dog fight scenario.. rather than Rafael which has much better A2G role. India already has 200+ mki on her kitty.. why go for more Su ??

 

[Steakhouse]

French know India used Russia to drive down the price, last option India will force to buy from the Russia if French decide not to sign a deal under India asking price. Not likely India 1st option to buy more su30 mki and why waited over 10 yrs of negotiation with French just to buy buy the fight jet from Russia because of the deal felt through, out of desperation of replacement with India older fighter, India desperate need fighter jet for it air force.

 

[Kinetic]

Just upgrade MKI with AESA and stealth features. Thats enough.

Rafale is waste of money Just put that money for AMCA and UCAV.

 

[SpArK]

Why India abandon the French Rafale in favor of the Russian Sukhoi

"Deal of the Century" - delivery of 126 French Rafale fighter jets to India - under threat. For Paris, this may mean stop producing its own aircraft for Moscow - a new lucrative contract.

Two-fold rise in price, and the rejection of technology transfer may cause cancellation of the tender to supply the Indian Air Force fighter French Rafale. In return for their Delhi intends to buy additional batch of Russian fighter
Su-30MKI
.



The successful tenderer French Rafale fighter began in late 2012. In addition to the French car, it was attended by the company Lockheed Martin (USA) with the F-16, Boeing with the F / A-18E / F, SAAB (Sweden) with the Gripen and the newest Russian fighter MiG-35 .

MiG-35



Until the last moment it was considered the main favorite of the competition. A number of characteristics, such as the availability of radar with an active phased array (AESA), it is much superior to the competition.However, the contract for the purchase of 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft, estimated at more than $ 10 billion., Went to Paris.



"This is not a paradox, - expressed his opinion channel STAR CAST head Ruslan Pukhov. - We are used to buy a lot of equipment Delhi for little money. Today, India's annual GDP growth of 9%. The country had the tools, and with them the ambition to buy what you want. And in this regard, we have a lot of white spots. As a result, the Indians are turning to the Europeans and the Americans. "



So, over the past few years, we have consistently lost a number of major tenders for the supply of military transport aircraft. Instead of our IL-76Delhi prefer to buy six American C-130 Super Hercules. For them to pay almost $ 1 billion. The figure astronomical, especially when you consider that the IL-76 would cost much cheaper. Our most modern MiG-35 lost to the French Rafale, combat helicopter Mi-28N lost the American AH-64 Apache, and the heavy transport helicopter Mi-26T2 - US CH-47 Chinook.And this despite the fact that the Russian car more modern - fully digital one and a half times more flies and has twice the volume of the cargo compartment than the American counterpart.



In the case of the Rafale Pukhov sees not only the desire to buy a modern fighter, but also the possibility of India's new technologies. Under the contract, the manufacturer of the machine Dassault Aviation undertook to convey India's production technology of many units, equipment and tools a fighter.



Rafale unique in that it replaces in the armed forces of France just seven types of combat aircraft: fighter-bomber Jaguar, attack aircraft carrier-based Super-Etendard, carrier-based fighter Crusader, tactical fighter Mirage F1, Mirage 2000C interceptor, attack aircraft Mirage 2000N / D, eurostrategic atomic bomber and scout Mirage IV. In the future, the first Rafale fighter jets from all European and receive radar with active phased array antenna. It came close to his fighters 5th generation. However, on this serious dignity of the French car ends. Rafale is very specific and expensive to maintain, demanding home locations. Because of this, Dassault Aviation could not sell it to anyone except the French military, the expert adds.

In addition, as already understood the Indians themselves, France does not eager to share their advanced technology. For example, the contract for the Rafale, involves the transfer of manufacturing technology of gallium nitride semiconductor chips for use in avionics. However, the transfer of related technology required to manufacture the chip, the proposal is not registered. India thus buys a technology that can not be converted into the desired component, and which will, ultimately, be imported during the whole life cycle of the aircraft.



The second caveat - this radar with an active phased array. He only developed for Rafale. Delhi invited to take part in its development money.It's a few billion dollars. But there is no guarantee that in the end the country will receive as the technology of production of such equipment, and the source code for re-board equipment, primarily for self radar equipment modernization "at a late stage of exploitation."



India's Defense Minister has made a statement that the deal on Rafale too costly for the country. The company Dassault Aviation has doubled the cost per aircraft - from $ 65 million. To $ 120 million. Dollars. This means that the entire consignment of 126 jets will cost not as planned at $ 10, and $ 28-30 billion.
Plus, the country will have to spend much to equip machines missile and bomb armament maintenance extremely capricious French technique.
At the same time, as noted in the Ministry of Defence of India, the production of one Russian fighter Su-30MKI by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) does not exceed $ 56 million., which is twice lower than the price of one Rafale.

Su-30. Photo: Sergey Krivchikov





In favor of Russian fighter is the fact that the fleet is one third of the fighting strength of the Indian Air Force. Indian pilots operate these machines is not the first year. Actively participate in international military exercises, where they met with the American F-15 and F-16, the French "Mirage" and British "Typhoon". The result of this exercise was always the same - the Su-30MKI emerged victorious.

Indian pilots not only the first detected the enemy (and therefore first used Missiles), but also by using the super-maneuverability of their fighters dragged the enemy in close combat, in which the Su-30MKI has no peers.



In addition, India is now completed the development of the aviation program options supersonic cruise missile BraMos - the appearance of this machine in the armed Su-30MKI making it one of the most armed and multi-role fighters in the world. On the basis of the "big» BraMos company makes and mini-version of the rocket. This will allow her arm even lighter MiG-29K / KUB.



In favor of a shift from French to Russian fighters and the program says FGFA (Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft) to establish Moscow and New Delhi Indian version fighter 5 th generation on the basis of our T-50. Delhi participated in this project is not limited to one money (investments Indians in the project $ 25 billion). Already, India offers its composite materials and electronics. By 2017, the country wants to get a double version of the fighter. At the same time the country will receive the aircraft manufacturing technology of new aircraft engines, radars with active phased array antenna, modern avionics and a lot more then that neither France nor the US nor anyone else had weapons of European companies do not intend to transmit Delhi.




Author: Dmitry Litovkin

Posted : January 4, 2015

Translated from Russian

Link: Почему Индия откажется от французского Rafale в пользу российского Су - Телеканал «Звезда»

 

[Max Pain]

Just upgrade MKI with AESA and stealth features. Thats enough.

Rafale is waste of money Just put that money for AMCA and UCAV.

I second that,
if the same amount of money is invested on indigenous platform, the results would be much more feasible.