India launches its 1st indigenous aircraft carrier INS Vikrant

[Dandpatta]

Just report him people. Why do you have to respond to his nonsense? There is no need to justify our actions to a troll.

You kidding? This is Pakistan Defence Forum and they need trollers like him as a weapon against us. Ever tried reporting ? What you get is another warning instead !! ( I have proof... and I know I will be banned after this post) Sanity doesn't prevail much here I say.

 

[ApparentRaceTraitor]

Since school was when you worked at the tyre-factory, consider the following statements of fact.


Fact 1: Some Indians are a very dark brown, almost bordering on a shade of black. (above 27 on the von Luschan chromatic scale)

Fact 2: This wrist-brace *waves brace in air* has been dyed to correspond to the skin colour of many Indians who place above 27 on the chromatic scale.

Fact 3: My hiney is black. Method of fact-finding: Since colour is a subjective perception, I sought to limit the margin of error by relying on multiple testimonies and therefore mooned my friends alongside said wrist-brace who all positively responded by confirming that my hiney does in fact correspond to the colour of the brace.

Task: Correlate the colour of Indians with that of your hiney.

Action: Transitive property of equality employed to formulate the following relation.

If Indians are as black as this wrist-brace, and this wrist-brace is as black as my hiney, then Indians are as black as my hiney.

You have just learnt that mathematical logic may be used to substantiate an elusive conclusion based on a set of semi-related facts.

*sigh* So by your 'version' of mathematical logic all Indians are as black as your fanny...... Let me know when that actually manages to stand up as a decent rebuttal in a debate princess.

 

[GURU DUTT]

You had to ruin a perfectly fine post with the mention of Tejas!

However, lets consider for a moment that a PAF/PN Jet is indeed spotted around 400km's out and is engaged 200km's out......isn't 250km's the advertised range of the ACCK? Would not the missile be launched even at 250km's? And what do you have in your arsenal that can shoot down something that is moving at MACH 4 in flight and over MACH 5.5 in terminal range (where most of the CIWS are activated)????

First thing we indians dont need ACs for pakistan as owr shore based planes are very much capable of controling yours shore lines from owr bases in western central & south india dont worry vikrant and vikrmaditya are not for you if need be we can take care of your entire navy by Viraat

now about the 250KM range brother the thing is you at least need a plane to launch those which is not possible since all your AF will be batteling IAF aircrafts from western indian air bases

plus your super duper 250KM missile needs at guide your missile in initial phase for least to come within 150 KM range of the ship by the time if it ever comes it has to counter the multi layered radar and AA missile shields of other ships in the CBG as ACs dont go owt in the open alone

hope u get my point sir

 

[TheFlyingPretzel]

*sigh* So by your 'version' of mathematical logic all Indians are as black as your fanny...... Let me know when that actually manages to stand up as a decent rebuttal in a debate princess.

The real Bill Maher is funnier.

 

[shuttler]

As the Vice-Admiral pointed out, there is 10-20% foreign component in the floating department (which means the hull). But it's only a small fraction of the entire hull, not a very major percentage.

There was no lawsuit because it was mutually agreed termination of contract.

Gessler you are the endangered species in your cheerleading community who can offer a bit more civil comments

The KEEL is the big mystery to solve and in fact my best conjecture, after reviewing all the info presented above, the vice admiral has admitted the 10~20% "non- indigenous" elements are likely attributable to the KEEL supplied by the Russians

There are 3 very important parts of an aircraft carrier which requires very high quality steel:

1. the keel
2. the flight deck
3. the hanger structure

and the other steel materials for
4. the rest of the hull

By this logic I will assigned 30-30-25-15% accordingly to the importance and difficulties in the building of the hull respectively

So the supplier of the Keel is foreign then the gigantic iron board is 30% non-indigenous

Also I will say in exchange for the Russians tardiness in delivery of the rest of the steel after the Keel, transfer of technology was the compromise for indian's waiver of a legal battle against the Russians

If not, then the indian navy / ship-builder failed massively in contract and project management and follow-up actions against a clear violation of contractual obligations

The LM2500+ GTs are assembled in India by HAL's Bangalore facilities under a license agreement, they come with certain India-specific modifications.

80-90% of the stuff is Indian, debate is about where the remaining 10-20% came from. I can't believe you are talking on and on about such a small fraction. Sort of shows you're desperation.

See my reply above in respect of the keel. at least you are giving in to the hull not being 100% indian

Just to make things clear. There is no desperation on my part. I wont take a simple yes or no for an answer.

You can strip off all the add-on components and add new ones, but the bigger problem lies with the hull and island. Altering these structures completely is not possible. It's better to build a new ship
altogether.

As long as you have a good structural blue print and suitable testing equipment, good shipping engineers will know which part can be dismantled which cannot.

Russian and Chinese shipbuilders can do these assessment and tests before the refit. We have done it well to Liaoning. I am sure the Russian can do it well also for the Gorshkov refit.

Refitting a aircraft carrier is as technically demanding as building a new one. Especially when we are able to turn a rusting block of iron into an engineering marvel that is functioning very well in high seas

we are the largest shipbuilders in the world
We are building tankers that weigh over 300K tons
We are also capable of building some of the most technically difficult ships in world like the LNGs

It will have the EL/M-2258 ALPHA AESA. It's a very good radar already. But better stuff like the MF-STAR cannot be added due to the LORAN fitment (the large drum on top of the island).

You can fit it behind the tower just like Gorshkov cant you?

IAC-1 comes with 6 x MFSTAR arrays (like SAMPSON), and 1 RAN-40L radar (comparable to S1850M), that's great stuff really.

I have heard that the radar system on your AC is bought from Israel

At this point, no. Only CSL was available for contract, all the remaining shipyards are packed to the brim with orders for frigates, destroyers, corvettes and some with N-subs.

indian shipyards are finding themselves harder to get commercial orders these days:

No pay: Contract labourers strike work at Bharati Shipyard - The Hindu

“We have not reached a stage where we can enjoy economies of scale like Korea or China. In India we produce around 20 ships in a year while developed shipbuilding markets make from 70 to 100 ships in a year,” said D Datar, chief financial officer, ABG shipyard. Due to this, almost 90 per cent of equipment for manufacturing ships is sourced from overseas.

Can defence save Indian shipbuilding? | Business Standard

well the Gorshkov is an government order too but the real thing is your shipyards are not capable to do the refit. The order situation is just an excuse

If I remember correctly, the topic was about what was operational and what was yet to be operational, when did it change to 4th gen v/s 5th gen talk?

because you used a wrong comparison of F-35 vs Mig 29K which is comparing a 5th gen vs a 3~4th gen fighter jet

With it's current package, Gorshkov can serve for 30 yrs, after that it depends on IN's decision to keep it for longer or not - if yes, the ship will be subject to a deep-upgrade, enhancing the lifespan by many more years.

Let's see how good the Russian shipyards are going to help you

Didn't you how we maintained INS Viraat (ex-Hermes) all these years?

Yes it manages to float.

Not many countries can make them. Still, the most difficult part of IAC-1's construction is nearly complete, the work ahead is similar to what we do on frigates/destroyers etc. no big challenge because we do this all the time.

The power plant and propulsion section
Steering and navigation control system
If there is a mini desalination plant in plan
Radar system
Air con, fire extinguishing, inter-com, electrical wiring, drainage and fresh water supply and pumping, waste disposal
aircraft landing and taking off traffic control, blast deflectors, arresting cables
Hanger installation, elevators and transport between decks, heavy lifting equipment

Most of these are imports or easy sourcing from local manufacturers
Let's see how all these click

The next big challenge will be the sea trials, after the ship is complete. But it happens more under IN's supervision, not under CSL's responsibility.

sea trials are key steps and you have to test it under many tough conditions

80-90% in hull
50-60% in propulsion
30-40% in aviation

That means 65-70% total indigenization. Very good for our first ACC. I think that is it. Correct me if I'm wrong, anyone?

that is your assessment. at least a certain % of indian ingenuity. I wont blame you but the official celebration is a joke really

I wont be happy when someone gives me a 3/8 baked birthday cake that is costing me 4x my budget and it is delayed for 4 years.

 

[indiatester]

Gessler you are the endangered species in your cheerleading community who can offer a bit more civil comments

The KEEL is the big mystery to solve and in fact my best conjecture, after reviewing all the info presented above, the vice admiral has admitted the 10~20% "non- indigenous" elements are likely attributable to the KEEL supplied by the Russians

There are 3 very important parts of an aircraft carrier which requires very high quality steel:

1. the keel
2. the flight deck
3. the hanger structure

and the other steel materials for
4. the rest of the hull

By this logic I will assigned 30-30-25-15% accordingly to the importance and difficulties in the building of the hull respectively

So the supplier of the Keel is foreign then the gigantic iron board is 30% non-indigenous

I'm missing the point here. Is your argument that the steel for the KEEL of the ship is different and from that of the hull and that the steel of the keel particularly has not been made in India?

 

[shuttler]

I'm missing the point here. Is your argument that the steel for the KEEL of the ship is different and from that of the hull and that the steel of the keel particularly has not been made in India?

likely so unless you can supply info that proves otherwise

 

[MohitV]

Gessler you are the endangered species in your cheerleading community who can offer a bit more civil comments

The KEEL is the big mystery to solve and in fact my best conjecture, after reviewing all the info presented above, the vice admiral has admitted the 10~20% "non- indigenous" elements are likely attributable to the KEEL supplied by the Russians

There are 3 very important parts of an aircraft carrier which requires very high quality steel:

1. the keel
2. the flight deck
3. the hanger structure

and the other steel materials for
4. the rest of the hull

By this logic I will assigned 30-30-25-15% accordingly to the importance and difficulties in the building of the hull respectively

So the supplier of the Keel is foreign then the gigantic iron board is 30% non-indigenous

Also I will say in exchange for the Russians tardiness in delivery of the rest of the steel after the Keel, transfer of technology was the compromise for indian's waiver of a legal battle against the Russians

If not, then the indian navy / ship-builder failed massively in contract and project management and follow-up actions against a clear violation of contractual obligations



See my reply above in respect of the keel. at least you are giving in to the hull not being 100% indian

Just to make things clear. There is no desperation on my part. I wont take a simple yes or no for an answer.



As long as you have a good structural blue print and suitable testing equipment, good shipping engineers will know which part can be dismantled which cannot.

Russian and Chinese shipbuilders can do these assessment and tests before the refit. We have done it well to Liaoning. I am sure the Russian can do it well also for the Gorshkov refit.

Refitting a aircraft carrier is as technically demanding as building a new one. Especially when we are able to turn a rusting block of iron into an engineering marvel that is functioning very well in high seas

we are the largest shipbuilders in the world
We are building tankers that weigh over 300K tons
We are also capable of building some of the most technically difficult ships in world like the LNGs




You can fit it behind the tower just like Gorshkov cant you?



I have heard that the radar system on your AC is bought from Israel




indian shipyards are finding themselves harder to get commercial orders these days:

No pay: Contract labourers strike work at Bharati Shipyard - The Hindu




well the Gorshkov is an government order too but the real thing is your shipyards are not capable to do the refit. The order situation is just an excuse



because you used a wrong comparison of F-35 vs Mig 29K which is comparing a 5th gen vs a 3~4th gen fighter jet



Let's see how good the Russian shipyards are going to help you



Yes it manages to float.



The power plant and propulsion section
Steering and navigation control system
If there is a mini desalination plant in plan
Radar system
Air con, fire extinguishing, inter-com, electrical wiring, drainage and fresh water supply and pumping, waste disposal
aircraft landing and taking off traffic control, blast deflectors, arresting cables
Hanger installation, elevators and transport between decks, heavy lifting equipment

Most of these are imports or easy sourcing from local manufacturers
Let's see how all these click



sea trials are key steps and you have to test it under many tough conditions




that is your assessment. at least a certain % of indian ingenuity. I wont blame you but the official celebration is a joke really

I wont be happy when someone gives me a 3/8 baked birthday cake that is costing me 4x my budget and it is delayed for 4 years.

man!!!! from where do u get time to post all this stuff ???? dont u have college ???...wow!!!

 

[shuttler]

man!!!! from where do u get time to post all this stuff ???? dont u have college ???...wow!!!

not a sweat! good exercise for analytical reviews

 

[indiatester]

likely so unless you can supply info that proves otherwise

http://www.iitk.ac.in/infocell/announce/metallo/talk/malkondia.pdf
Slide Number 44.

 

[MohitV]

not a sweat! good exercise for analytical reviews

ok......u must be a pro then.......must say......u r good at it

 

[Gessler]

The KEEL is the big mystery

Read the link given by @indiatester

See my reply above in respect of the keel. at least you are giving in to the hull not being 100% indian

Just to make things clear. There is no desperation on my part. I wont take a simple yes or no for an answer.

I never said hull was 100% Indian, I only stuck to the Vice-Admiral's claim
that 80-90% was Indian.

I am pretty sure even the keel is made from SAIL's steel because there are
official articles stating that the steel used was solely from Indian companies.

Besides, when the VA said hull was 80-90% Indian, what prompted you to
think the remaining 10-20% was Russian steel?

The "hull" means a lot more than just steel - it could be anything else that
forms part of the floatation department.

As long as you have a good structural blue print and suitable testing equipment, good shipping engineers will know which part can be dismantled which cannot.

The problem comes with changing the materials a ship is made out of,
you cannot simply take off the entire consistency of the ship and replace it with
new materials - you can only do some strengthening practices which will
enhance the materials' life.

This is what is done when they say "refurbishing" a ship.

What you are saying is foolhardy. Dismantling the entire ship and rebuilding
it will cost a lot more money than building a new one altogether.

Plus, the base design of Gorshkov and Varyag is 1980s Soviet vintage. They
won't be as efficient as modern designs like IAC-1 in the real world.

Russian and Chinese shipbuilders can do these assessment and tests before the refit. We have done it well to Liaoning.

The Chinese just repainted it and added some new electronic/radar stuff. Inside
the paint, the ship is rusting away as much as it did when it sat in Ukraine for
years, totally neglected of all upkeep.

Even Gorshkov is also very old - but however Gorshkov was in operational service
therefore it was maintained well by Soviets for as long as it served. Secondly,
Gorshkov was originally a helicopter-carrier with destroyer elements, it wasn't
meant to carry STOBAR fighters.

The ski-jump etc. that you see on Vikramaditya today are totally new installations.

But Varyag is different, it was already a full-fledged Kuznetsov-class carrier,
therefore even the ski-jump was already there.

You just repainted the body - if you scratch away the paint, the ship looks
like this -

Refitting a aircraft carrier is as technically demanding as building a new one. Especially when we are able to turn a rusting block of iron into an engineering marvel that is functioning very well in high seas

1. No, refitting is not as demanding as building a new one - that's the truth.

2. There is no chinese "engineering marvel" in Varyag. This is however a chinese
painting marvel. It will be an engineering marvel when you build your own one,
again it depends on how much it defers from the existing Liaoning (otherwise it
will just be a carbon copy of Varyag).

Until then Liaoning remains a product of Soviet engineering.

3. The "rusting block of iron" hasn't been turned into something marvelous - scratch
away the paint and "the rusting block of iron" will still be there. It has just been
painted over to resemble a new ship.

4. I don't know why you guys are making such a din about a Soviet era rustbucket,
it is not on par with any of the ocean-going CVs of the Western navies or even
the Vikramaditya/Vikrant CVs of Indian Navy.

It is just a training ship which is unlikely to ever leave the South China Sea.

we are the largest shipbuilders in the world
We are building tankers that weigh over 300K tons
We are also capable of building some of the most technically difficult ships in world like the LNGs

That's great! So why are you still jumping and howling around a Soviet rust bucket
Varyag? You should have been able to build an aircraft carrier straight away, right?

Is it because no one has given you the designs of an aircraft carrier so that you
can copy??

You can fit it behind the tower just like Gorshkov cant you?

No it doesn't fit there - anyway ALPHA is a very good radar - the Israelis
use it too.

I have heard that the radar system on your AC is bought from Israel

Yes, from ELTA company.

well the Gorshkov is an government order too but the real thing is your shipyards are not capable to do the refit. The order situation is just an excuse

What a joke - you have seen Indian shipyards building a carrier from scratch
and you say we cannot refit an existing one?

because you used a wrong comparison of F-35 vs Mig 29K which is comparing a 5th gen vs a 3~4th gen fighter jet

No, it's a comparison between proven aircraft v/s yet-to-be-proven aircraft.

You said 29K was proven while Tejas M2 isn't. And I said you do not need to be
a proven aircraft to be superior technology and capability-wise. And I gave
F-35 as an example.

If you search the net, you can find all the tech meant to go onboard Tejas M2,
and then you can wage a comparison yourself about which plane has better
tech.

Yes it manages to float.

It is an operational vessel, can launch operational Sea Harrier jets, Sea King, Dhruv
, Ka-28 helos etc. and is actually capable of undertaking real combat missions
as of today.

sea trials are key steps and you have to test it under many tough conditions

Yes, and I'm sure IN knows more about this than PLAN.

 

[ApparentRaceTraitor]

The real Bill Maher is funnier.

I'm not here to entertain you princess....

 

[shuttler]

http://www.iitk.ac.in/infocell/announce/metallo/talk/malkondia.pdf
Slide Number 44.

when was that presentation done?

 

[shuttler]

Read the link given by @indiatester

seen and a question asked

I never said hull was 100% Indian, I only stuck to the Vice-Admiral's claim
that 80-90% was Indian.

I am pretty sure even the keel is made from SAIL's steel because there are
official articles stating that the steel used was solely from Indian companies.

the keel was laid in February 2009
You have to prove that the indian steel mills could supply before that time

Besides, when the VA said hull was 80-90% Indian, what prompted you to
think the remaining 10-20% was Russian steel?

see my % allocation of the importance of different sections of the vessel where steel are required

because the Russians were mentioned in numerous reports to supply you specialised steel which at the time of signing the contract, indian steel makers were unable to produce

The "hull" means a lot more than just steel - it could be anything else that
forms part of the floatation department.

Steel forms the major part of the hull and the most important material to make it

The problem comes with changing the materials a ship is made out of,
you cannot simply take off the entire consistency of the ship and replace it with
new materials - you can only do some strengthening practices which will
enhance the materials' life.This is what is done when they say "refurbishing" a ship.

True but as I said the structure blueprints (including relevant manuals / handbooks) plus good testing equipment will do the analysis

What you are saying is foolhardy. Dismantling the entire ship and rebuilding
it will cost a lot more money than building a new one altogether.

Plus, the base design of Gorshkov and Varyag is 1980s Soviet vintage. They
won't be as efficient as modern designs like IAC-1 in the real world.

There is no answer to confrim because the indians expenditures are focused on your new AC while Gorshkov refit is a secondary ac by default

But if there are technical / design problems that prop up during your seatrial and operation then Gorshkov will gain its importance in the fleet

The Chinese just repainted it and added some new electronic/radar stuff. Inside
the paint, the ship is rusting away as much as it did when it sat in Ukraine for
years, totally neglected of all upkeep.

Even Gorshkov is also very old - but however Gorshkov was in operational service
therefore it was maintained well by Soviets for as long as it served. Secondly,
Gorshkov was originally a helicopter-carrier with destroyer elements, it wasn't
meant to carry STOBAR fighters.

The ski-jump etc. that you see on Vikramaditya today are totally new installations.

But Varyag is different, it was already a full-fledged Kuznetsov-class carrier,
therefore even the ski-jump was already there.

You just repainted the body - if you scratch away the paint, the ship looks
like this

Getting the block of iron to the stage of sailing it at high sea beautiflly at 30 knots with appropriate equipment for fighter jets' operating on it is marvellous engineering job

1. No, refitting is not as demanding as building a new one - that's the truth.

It is as demanding if not more because the flexibilities are much less than building from scratch

2. There is no chinese "engineering marvel" in Varyag. This is however a chinese
painting marvel. It will be an engineering marvel when you build your own one,
again it depends on how much it defers from the existing Liaoning (otherwise it
will just be a carbon copy of Varyag).

that is cheerleaders' viewpoint
Even the blinds can see a rusty floating ironblock that was once towed by tugboats is completely transformed into a self-powered 60K ton aircraft carrier that can navigate to the Pacific.

Until then Liaoning remains a product of Soviet engineering.

we have some parts which are sources from Ukraine. The Russian element on Liaoning is none to low (aircraft not included)

3. The "rusting block of iron" hasn't been turned into something marvelous - scratch
away the paint and "the rusting block of iron" will still be there. It has just been
painted over to resemble a new ship.

this is repeated.

4. I don't know why you guys are making such a din about a Soviet era rustbucket,
it is not on par with any of the ocean-going CVs of the Western navies or even
the Vikramaditya/Vikrant CVs of Indian Navy.

Liaoning was completely overhauled, floating and power-enabled when we had the inauguration
while your gigantic ironing board is like a 3/8 baked cake presented for celebration

It is just a training ship which is unlikely to ever leave the South China Sea.

SCS is the sea territory where Liaoning will operate then.

That's great! So why are you still jumping and howling around a Soviet rust bucket
Varyag? You should have been able to build an aircraft carrier straight away, right?

Liaoning provides valuable experience for us to the building and operating of our next aircraft carrier(s) for sure

Is it because no one has given you the designs of an aircraft carrier so that you
can copy??

see the above answer. You have to be patient for the rolling out of the next CV or CVN
We have a lot of experience in shipbuilding that easily trumps india
your gigantic ironing board is designed by the Italians

No it doesn't fit there - anyway ALPHA is a very good radar - the Israelis
use it too.

Yes, from ELTA company.

Ok

What a joke - you have seen Indian shipyards building a carrier from scratch
and you say we cannot refit an existing one?

as I said you have idle capacities in you shipyards which are engaged mostly in government orders
I cant imagine you cannot have rescheduled your manufacturing priorities to allow for the refitting of Gorshkov which is another iconic symbols for cheerleading indians. You are handing your ATM cards to the Russians for the job because of your incapabilites

No, it's a comparison between proven aircraft v/s yet-to-be-proven aircraft.

Mig-29K and F-35 are more proven than tejas - FACT

You said 29K was proven while Tejas M2 isn't. And I said you do not need to be
a proven aircraft to be superior technology and capability-wise. And I gave
F-35 as an example.

You should give another example. F-35 is a poor choice

If you search the net, you can find all the tech meant to go onboard Tejas M2,
and then you can wage a comparison yourself about which plane has better
tech.

These are on paper. indians said tejas was so fantastic and would equipped with 'indigenous" indian engine and a lot of composite material. The indian engine is dead now and your composite materials frame are a lot heavier than stated

It is an operational vessel, can launch operational Sea Harrier jets, Sea King, Dhruv
, Ka-28 helos etc. and is actually capable of undertaking real combat missions
as of today.

it is an aging ship. it is a graveyard for sea harriers
the flight deck is not a good surface for the landing and taking off of fighter jets

Yes, and I'm sure IN knows more about this than PLAN.

on forums and on paper only