India keen to induct 5th-Gen stealth fighter by 2017

[sathruvinasakh]

First flight of the YF-22 was in September 1990, the first flight of the F-22 was in September 1997, IOC began in 2003 and FOC was achieved in 2007. Now, remember that the first YF-22 that flew in 1990 was actually the completed initial design put forward by LM in the ATF contest, which had been in development since 1986. Initial flight testing of technologies had been done before that for risk reduction purposes. Before even that, they had F-117 and SR-71 experience. On the other hand, the Russians claim first flight of the first prototype by the end of this year, which could really mean anything, not necessarily the completed initial design.

So, with all their experience, technical-know how and technology base, it took LM 17 years from YF-22 initial flight to FOC and induction. And some guys here think that Sukhoi can match all that in 7.

I won't comment on the MCA as I know very little about it. The LCA should be priority 1 for now, and for your sake, I hope it really is "designed from scratch in India".

I appreciate your few valid points. russian aircraft industry is suffering only due to the lack of cash.
With my personal experience ,Sukhoi has the capability to bringup the product in the given timeframe while the funds were kept at her disposal.I know some fellows working in that Co in high positions.Since I simply cant broke the promise,I am keeping mum on the issue.
Again,highlighting the Russian industrial capabilities,It is only Russia/Soviet Union which built 245 NUCLEAR SUMARINES in only 47 years.which is a world record which can never be broken in future .

Today Russia is returning to the good old soviet days.No doubt Putin laid the foundation for modern Russia taking the bricks from the old Soviet union.

 

[PAFAce]

Again,highlighting the Russian industrial capabilities,It is only Russia/Soviet Union which built 245 NUCLEAR SUMARINES in only 47 years.which is a world record which can never be broken in future .

Sir, there is a difference between the design of an advanced jet that requires development of various technological beds and the serial production of an already existing design. You can't design an aircraft on a production line.

From the way you speak, it seems that you are a technical person. Maybe you do know inside details that I don't, in which case, your information is a obviously lot more reliable. But, from an outsider's perspective, and judging by other projects of this magnitude, any induction by 2017 seems miraculous. I would be surprised if we have a final design by 2017.

Realistically, the Indians should hope for all the Su-30MKI and MMRCA inducted by 2017. That would be a far more achievable goal.

 

[Insane]

Govt and politics are like show business these days. But on important matters like national security the leaders and organizations should be more accountable and honest.

There must be clear understanding of what is desirable (high end expectations), What is required ( Minimum ) and what is achievable (Real case). Do not misguide the public in to false sense of security or insecurity. When you put targets in front of the media (which is like a predator these days), you must put forward the worst case estimates or at least real case estimates not some fantasy desirable estimates. No wonder the programs almost always are late and then comes back to haunt those very authorities. Really stupid.

2017 for FGFA is a fantasy case and its better for people to just be real and not buy everything that is thrown up. 2020/2022 is more realistic and that's fine with me. No need to be over optimistic, only to be disappointed.

 

[sathruvinasakh]

Sir, there is a difference between the design of an advanced jet that requires development of various technological beds and the serial production of an already existing design. You can't design an aircraft on a production line.

From the way you speak, it seems that you are a technical person. Maybe you do know inside details that I don't, in which case, your information is a obviously lot more reliable. But, from an outsider's perspective, and judging by other projects of this magnitude, any induction by 2017 seems miraculous. I would be surprised if we have a final design by 2017.

Realistically, the Indians should hope for all the Su-30MKI and MMRCA inducted by 2017. That would be a far more achievable goal.

Being frank,5th Gen fighter project and related technologies development started in the late 90`s in russia.And few of those were already matured and been tried already on the new 4+++ Gen ones.
Its was only the financial lag that stopped the mating of all the developed technologies.Ivanov being optimistic said a couple of years back that he wants the PAKFA to be rolled out by 2009 atleast.
since everyone know the ethical behaviourism combined with political strategies together clubbed with the need of the hour and change in warfare will obviously prompt for new additions.What has happened in this scenario is that the developed technologies were further developed while the underdevelopment ones lagged behind.Currently there was a 3:1 technological gap between the already developed and the ones under development.They are trying to sort out the integration issues before the full pledged one takes on to skies.

Again,nuclear submarine is no easy feat.Of the 245 subs Russia leapfrogged from early first gen to current 4 th gen with almost 20 different types which also includes the worlds largest/biggest(however you term it) Submarine typhoon with 48000t submerged displacement(which is a way higher than the Indias first indigenous AC).

After all, if there is any other nation that can contend or compete Soviets/Russians technologically it has to be none other than Hitlers Germany.

 

[sathruvinasakh]

And coming to FGFA,which is basically a joint design cum development and production will only fly after 2015.
PAKFA will be purely russian and more likely serve as a TD and might give rise to a new production plane apart from FGFA .
This is how it works in the end.FGFA co-developed and co-productized will be mass produced in two or 3 different variants.
With Indian one being larger with 2 seats and 2 engines while the russian one will be dual engine and single seater along with single engine and single seater.
The single engined single seater will be exported while a bit downgraded than the original ones.

 

[PAFAce]

And coming to FGFA,which is basically a joint design cum development and production will only fly after 2015.

Ah, that is key what you said there. Technology Demonstrator rolling out by 2010, I can believe that for sure. However, as you said, because of the huge gap in technology base, the TD will not contain all tech but mainly those that require risk reduction. This still does not merit the claim of induction of FGFA in IAF beginning in 2017. I am sure you will agree, that is highly unlikely.

And sure, I do not for one minute doubt the technical capabilities of the Russians. My point was simply that there is a difference between Engineering and assembly line production. I am sure you will agree to this as well.

 

[sancho]

First flight of the YF-22 was in September 1990, the first flight of the F-22 was in September 1997, IOC began in 2003 and FOC was achieved in 2007. Now, remember that the first YF-22 that flew in 1990 was actually the completed initial design put forward by LM in the ATF contest, which had been in development since 1986. Initial flight testing of technologies had been done before that for risk reduction purposes. Before even that, they had F-117 and SR-71 experience. On the other hand, the Russians claim first flight of the first prototype by the end of this year, which could really mean anything, not necessarily the completed initial design.

So, with all their experience, technical-know how and technology base, it took LM 17 years from YF-22 initial flight to FOC and induction. And some guys here think that Sukhoi can match all that in 7.

I won't comment on the MCA as I know very little about it. The LCA should be priority 1 for now, and for your sake, I hope it really is "designed from scratch in India".

As I said the difference is that the US has build a total new fighter from the scratch. Sure they had some experience in stealth design, but F117 (bomber with no A2A capabilities) and F22 (air superiority fighter) a totally different in techs and purpose.
Russia instead, might not had the experience in stealth design, but the Pak Fa will be for the same purpose as the Flankers before, so the generall design won't be different and techs like radar and engine are already in service. That is an enormous advantage in the development compared to the F22!
The americans had to build a total new design, for a different purpose, new radar, new engine, avionics and needed time to test them till they could go in service. AL 41A (or Klimov S117) in service in SU35 now and soon in upg MKI. Bars and IRBIS PESA in service in MKI and Su 35 now, AESA varient soon in upg MKI.
Also the Russian has not a single stealth fighter flying at the moment, but seems to be on par with the European countries in 5. gen UCAV developments, that also is in prototype stage.

That's why I doubt that they are so far behind, but as I said, I also expect delays.

 

[sancho]

This is how it works in the end.FGFA co-developed and co-productized will be mass produced in two or 3 different variants.
With Indian one being larger with 2 seats and 2 engines while the russian one will be dual engine and single seater along with single engine and single seater.
The single engined single seater will be exported while a bit downgraded than the original ones.

Where do get that from? India asked for a single engine version, but Russia rejected, also the Indian version will be double seat config, but not larger (Su 35 and Su 30 MKI are also the same size, but single and double seat config). Some reports even hints that the Indian version could be smaller than the Russian. FGFA more in the size of F22, or F18SH with a lenght of 18-19m and Pak Fa in the size of the Flankers, around 21m. But honestly I expect both in the same size, just with double seat as a obvious difference.

 

[sathruvinasakh]

What all I said above was more than 100% true.Period

 

[raveolution]

Where do get that from? India asked for a single engine version, but Russia rejected, also the Indian version will be double seat config, but not larger (Su 35 and Su 30 MKI are also the same size, but single and double seat config). Some reports even hints that the Indian version could be smaller than the Russian. FGFA more in the size of F22, or F18SH with a lenght of 18-19m and Pak Fa in the size of the Flankers, around 21m. But honestly I expect both in the same size, just with double seat as a obvious difference.

I think a fair assumption would be that the Pak-Fa and FGFA would be like what the F-22 and F-35 are in the USAF. What is incredible is that even though the FGFA is a double seater and the Pak-Fa is a single seater, the FGFA will weigh around 17 tons and the Pak-Fa will weigh around 22 tons.

 

[gogbot]

I think a fair assumption would be that the Pak-Fa and FGFA would be like what the F-22 and F-35 are in the USAF. What is incredible is that even though the FGFA is a double seater and the Pak-Fa is a single seater, the FGFA will weigh around 17 tons and the Pak-Fa will weigh around 22 tons.

Perhaps the FGFA will use the more composite materials,
and the construction process used in Making the LCA

where Aircraft is produced in large sections and then attached together, lowering the aircraft's weight, as the nuts and bolts used will be far less.
This also allows planes to be produced faster.

but likely it also involves concessions in the Aircraft's Range, Russia is clearly has a much larger air space and require a larger range plane.

When compared to India, with a much smaller airspace, It could manage with Less range.

Also since both aircraft's use different engines, That must also contribute to the difference in weight.

But keep in Mind this is all planned or project weight. It might well be different when it comes out. Although i doubt it will be heavier than, than the PAK-fa, as that is clearly a project goal to be lighter.
It might be 1 or 3 tonnes overweight. or none at all.
Only time cna tell

 

[satishkumarcsc]

Where do get that from? India asked for a single engine version, but Russia rejected, also the Indian version will be double seat config, but not larger (Su 35 and Su 30 MKI are also the same size, but single and double seat config). Some reports even hints that the Indian version could be smaller than the Russian. FGFA more in the size of F22, or F18SH with a lenght of 18-19m and Pak Fa in the size of the Flankers, around 21m. But honestly I expect both in the same size, just with double seat as a obvious difference.

No you are wrong. India never wanted a single engine FGFA...they always wanted a twin seater FGFA. The Indians also wanted to be a part of the Mig LFI programme. Which was denied. Hence the MCA project got off the drawing board.

 

[Midgetman]

they completed a stealth airframe design so fast

lol... where have u been... they going to do the first flight this year...

 

[Midgetman]

i wonder if anyone of you has seen this picture...

 

[Midgetman]

i wonder if anyone of you has seen this picture...

actual pictures of the pakfa!!!!!!!!!!!