India in R6,000-crore JV with Russia for BrahMos’ air version

[Safriz]

your comparing apples with oranges. BrahMos is a cruise missile while CM-400AKG is more of a PGM.
CM-400AKG compares to Kh-15 Raduga of early 70s. Such weapons are obsolete and far phased out,
now here comes PAF inducting 50 yr old weapons and claiming its superior to BrahMos ALCM.

If CM-400AKG is so good, why doesn't china fit their H-6 bombers and JH-7 strike fighters with this
missile instead of CJ-10 and small n. of YJ-12?

Yes i know its a shame that the 'obsolete technology' has more bang for buck,and more destructive power than an New missile.
Numbers dont lie.

 

[BlueDot_in_Space]

Yes i know its a shame that the 'obsolete technology' has more bang for buck,and more destructive power than an New missile.
Numbers dont lie.

Performance never lies.

 

[Daedalus]

Was going through Trishul on the zhuhai updates when came upon this piece of info.
Questions Sherkhan (obviously a Pakistani as he was going on an on abt the CM 400): What is interesting from the JDW report (taken with a pinch) that PAF could well have a supersonic missile operational around the same time as IAF! There are number of reports out there quoting various specs, however PAF are in a lockdown as far has release of info goes at the moment. One thing is certain CM-400AKG will have an impact on the operational doc of IN.

Reply by Prasun: I wonder why the PAF has to be in ‘lockdown’ mode as far as info on the CM-400AKG goers, since a lot more information has been officially given by its OEM to CCTV channels. If anyone understands Mandarin, then it will clearly emerge after listening to such interviews that the claimed terminal velocity of this missile is Mach 5.5, while the range envelope—depending on launch altitude-- is between 100km & 240km. As for the advent of such missiles having an impact on the naval doctrines of those navies that operate carrier battle groups, I don’t foresee such a possibility. This is because gone are the days (like in 1971) when a carrier battle group had to cruise only 25nm away from hostile coastlines while launching/retrieving carrier-borne combat aircraft. Today, a distance of 150nm will have to be maintained despite the availability of 24/7 AEW & C capabilities. In an IN versus PN conflict scenario, a chain of TELs housing the PN’s 290km-range C-602 ASCMs backed up by P-3C Orion Update 3 MRMR/ASW aircraft will be deployed to deter the IN’s carrier battle groups from approaching Pakistan’s coastline. But the PN’s main challenge will be to breach the IN’s close-in anti-ASCM air-defences, which will be the Barak-2 MR-SAMs & EL/M-2248 MF-STAR AESA volume search radars on board at least three P-15A DDGs that will accompany each aircraft carrier, plus such weapons & sensors mounted on the aircraft carrier itself. Even if one considers the prospect of air-launched missiles like CM-400AKG being used, one will require at least 24 such missiles to be launched in swarms from 12 JF-17s (backed up by at least one Saab 2000 AEW & CS platform) in order to overwhelm the IN’s close-in air-defence systems. In fact, that’s why the PLAN had acquired four Type 956E DDGs (each with eight Raduga-built Kh-41 Zubr supersonic ASCMs) since, as per Soviet naval doctrine, it would take at least 24 supersonic ASCMs (fired concurrently from warships, SSGNs & Tu-22M3s) to overwhelm the air-defences of a US Navy carrier battle group. Will the PAF therefore be able to simultaneously deploy 12 JF-17s with 24 CM-400AKGs & a Saab 2000 AEW & CS, or will it, along with the PN, launch a combined forces attack with C-602s & CM-400AKGs? In either scenario, the element of surprise will be lost very early since the C-602 is not exactly sea-skimming, while a flight of 12 JF-17s will be easily located by Ka-31 AEW helicopters while the JF-17s are still 250km away from the IN’s carrier battle group.
That is why I can only conclude that the PAF has gone for the CM-400AKG not for the sake of using them against naval targets, but against fixed land-based targets like industrial installations & transportation infrastructure, since it has realised that CALCMs like the Ra’ad & the PA’s Babur will no longer be effective against the IAF’s air-defence systems like the EL/M-2084 AESA-based early warning/engagement radars & SpyDer-SR SHORADS combination, & the Barak-2/ELM-2258 combination. But then again, if the Barak-2 can successfully supersonic inbound ASCMs, then there’s no reason why its land-based variant won’t be able to intercept inbound supersonic CALCMs like the CM-400AKG.

 

[Daedalus]

Another one..
Q: "This is a mature weapon that has been fully tested. It is not conceptual. It is in service"

"The CM-400AKG is a very high-speed missile that is very difficult to intercept. It hits the target at Mach 4 or above and its kinetic impact alone is enough to destroy any high-value target, like an aircraft carrier."

All this is stated by the Air Commodore Mahmood Khalid, PAF JF-17 Deputy Project Director

I am sure he knows much more about CM-400AKG and its itegration with JF-17.

Reply: Oh I do agree that he knows more about the CM-400AKG & its integration with the JF-17, but his statements would make anyone have grave doubts about his ability to comprehend the complexities associated with planning an offensive air-strike against a carrier battle group. Therefore, it is best that instead of him revealing his ignorance, someone from the PN ought to give an informed appreciation about ways of engaging carrier battle groups.

 

[Contrarian]

Was going through Trishul on the zhuhai updates when came upon this piece of info.
Questions Sherkhan (obviously a Pakistani as he was going on an on abt the CM 400): What is interesting from the JDW report (taken with a pinch) that PAF could well have a supersonic missile operational around the same time as IAF! There are number of reports out there quoting various specs, however PAF are in a lockdown as far has release of info goes at the moment. One thing is certain CM-400AKG will have an impact on the operational doc of IN.

Reply by Prasun: I wonder why the PAF has to be in ‘lockdown’ mode as far as info on the CM-400AKG goers, since a lot more information has been officially given by its OEM to CCTV channels. If anyone understands Mandarin, then it will clearly emerge after listening to such interviews that the claimed terminal velocity of this missile is Mach 5.5, while the range envelope—depending on launch altitude-- is between 100km & 240km. As for the advent of such missiles having an impact on the naval doctrines of those navies that operate carrier battle groups, I don’t foresee such a possibility. This is because gone are the days (like in 1971) when a carrier battle group had to cruise only 25nm away from hostile coastlines while launching/retrieving carrier-borne combat aircraft. Today, a distance of 150nm will have to be maintained despite the availability of 24/7 AEW & C capabilities. In an IN versus PN conflict scenario, a chain of TELs housing the PN’s 290km-range C-602 ASCMs backed up by P-3C Orion Update 3 MRMR/ASW aircraft will be deployed to deter the IN’s carrier battle groups from approaching Pakistan’s coastline. But the PN’s main challenge will be to breach the IN’s close-in anti-ASCM air-defences, which will be the Barak-2 MR-SAMs & EL/M-2248 MF-STAR AESA volume search radars on board at least three P-15A DDGs that will accompany each aircraft carrier, plus such weapons & sensors mounted on the aircraft carrier itself. Even if one considers the prospect of air-launched missiles like CM-400AKG being used, one will require at least 24 such missiles to be launched in swarms from 12 JF-17s (backed up by at least one Saab 2000 AEW & CS platform) in order to overwhelm the IN’s close-in air-defence systems. In fact, that’s why the PLAN had acquired four Type 956E DDGs (each with eight Raduga-built Kh-41 Zubr supersonic ASCMs) since, as per Soviet naval doctrine, it would take at least 24 supersonic ASCMs (fired concurrently from warships, SSGNs & Tu-22M3s) to overwhelm the air-defences of a US Navy carrier battle group. Will the PAF therefore be able to simultaneously deploy 12 JF-17s with 24 CM-400AKGs & a Saab 2000 AEW & CS, or will it, along with the PN, launch a combined forces attack with C-602s & CM-400AKGs? In either scenario, the element of surprise will be lost very early since the C-602 is not exactly sea-skimming, while a flight of 12 JF-17s will be easily located by Ka-31 AEW helicopters while the JF-17s are still 250km away from the IN’s carrier battle group.
That is why I can only conclude that the PAF has gone for the CM-400AKG not for the sake of using them against naval targets, but against fixed land-based targets like industrial installations & transportation infrastructure, since it has realised that CALCMs like the Ra’ad & the PA’s Babur will no longer be effective against the IAF’s air-defence systems like the EL/M-2084 AESA-based early warning/engagement radars & SpyDer-SR SHORADS combination, & the Barak-2/ELM-2258 combination.

And this is the exactly what i thought. That PAF has acquired these missiles for use not against IN, but against Indian Army and Airforce. These missiles will not be as useful against IN as some AShM's that PN already possesses.

But then again, if the Barak-2 can successfully supersonic inbound ASCMs, then there’s no reason why its land-based variant won’t be able to intercept inbound supersonic CALCMs like the CM-400AKG.

They can, but there is one big big flaw in this situation - reaction time will be too low unless the missile is detected far out. So its a big plus in favour of this missile in land use.

 

[Gessler]

Yes i know its a shame that the 'obsolete technology' has more bang for buck,and more destructive power than an New missile.
Numbers dont lie.

70s Bang for 21st century buck is what you're getting.

India can procure 1,000 KH-15s from Russia if we so want to kill PN warships be we (and Russia intself)
have far realised the flaws of hypersonic PGMs and now even Russi has replaced its Kh-15s with Kh-55s
that are much slower, but still more effective at killing enemy ships.

 

[Chanakyaa]

How about Brahmos is a super weapon only for Indians. No one else deserve it? The truth is that India is paying for the price of a strategic weapon but receive a tactical weapon. This is why Russians won't buy this con job because they would screw the Indians, but they won't be able to screw their own military and get away with it.

Mr Professor . At Work Again. Nice. !!!

How about Brahmos is a super weapon only for Indians. No one else deserve it?

The Terms "Super" i guess has been Used/Coined By YOU Alone ( Ateast in its application ) .. Just to Create some Meaningless Sensationalism..For Us Its a Normal..Working... Accurate Missile.. Thats it.. Considering they Already Have "Hypersonic" Shaurya and "Subsonic" Nirbhay in our Arsenal for Similar Roles/Alternatives.

Brahmos is NOT God. But a Perfected and Matured Missile System. ( Atleast for Indians ).

The truth is that India is paying for the price of a strategic weapon but receive a tactical weapon.

Ha ha.. Good Shot my "Intellectually Enlightened" Professor !!!
How did u calculate the Economics ? When you dont even know.. the Numbers.. the Investments.. the Technology behind Brahmos?
And btw.. Are you Aware that Brahmos Fills in The Indian "Triad" , which Means Its an Strategic Asset By Default ?

This is why Russians won't buy this con job because they would screw the Indians, but they won't be able to screw their own military and get away with it.

Enough of ur Rants !! Think B4 u speak.

Russian Frigates to Get BrahMos Missiles >> Naval Today

 

[Mitro]

And this is the exactly what i thought. That PAF has acquired these missiles for use not against IN, but against Indian Army and Airforce. These missiles will not be as useful against IN as some AShM's that PN already possesses.

I took it from tempest III post

plawolf from Sinodefenceforum translates the interview of the missile engineer from the video:

For those who don't speak Chinese, here is a brief summary of what was said in that video.

The interview is with an Engineer Zhang, who is one of the engineers on the project team that developed the CM-400AKG.

Key Missile stats:
-Range: 100-240km
-Speed: Up to 5.5M
-Diameter: 400mm (zhang did not say if this is with or without fins, but I think it's pretty obvious that this is without fins)
-Length: 5.2m
-Weight: 900kg (approx)
-Guidance: Inertia + Terminal, Terminal guidance methods include: Passive Radar, IR or Visible light (I assume he meant TV guidance).

Other useful bits include repeated emphasis that the missile's entire flight is within the atmosphere (so this isn't an air launched ballistic missile).

Interestingly, when asked to give examples of the kinds of targets the CM-400AKG might be used against, Zhang listed mostly land based high value fixed targets, like command centers, bridges, air defense radar, or even ship borne radar.

With everyone jumping on the 'carrier killer' bandwagon, it appears that the anti-radiation element of this missile's capabilities have been completely overlooked, but I think that the fact that this missile can be configured to be used a 240km M5.5 anti-radiation missile is by far the biggest and most important revelation from the whole interview (maybe the whole air show). The PLA is still relying mainly on YJ82s and YJ62s for AShM work because the CM-400AKG is not primarily an anti-ship missile.

Instead of calling the CM-400AKG a 'carrier killer' a far more appropriate nickname might be 'patriot killer'.

Considering China's access to Russian S300 missile systems and the specs of the missile, if Pakistan also has the ARM version of the CM-400AKG, its impact on the balance of military power in the region could be profound as could potentially allow them to field an effective counter against the best SAMs deployed in the region.

The fact that China seemed to have developed an IR sensor that can function at up to 5.5M speeds is another small but important revelation that makes an ASBM seem more credible.

 

[Safriz]

Tempast's analysis is well good.
This missile in anti radiation mode can destroy enemy radars,rendering SAMs and even ABMs useless.

 

[Mitro]

Tempast's analysis is well good.
This missile in anti radiation mode can destroy enemy radars,rendering SAMs and even ABMs useless.

I think CM-400AKG is very dangerous weapon and if use properly can upset the balance in sub continent If it is true what the expert say about this missile it can be used in multiple mode like targeting Airforce base,Sam ,Fixed Radar,naval asset and strategic target.
We can say it Mini Dong Feng 21 missile ,i think my country has to do something about it a new strategy or new weapon system i don't think any Sam like barak 1 or 2 can intercept a Mac 5.5 missile right now .
Hopefully they will find some thing but may cost tremendously .