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India has raised the stakes

We arent blaming terrorism on US but we r saying tht they expect us to do more while themselves shy away.
Also u cant stop a suicide bomber... the fuker has already made uo his mind to blow his arse.
And yes to some extent the government has failed , but we (nation) wont give up... will fight these mofos till our end or theres.
 
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We arent blaming terrorism on US but we r saying tht they expect us to do more while themselves shy away.

the guy who i was originally talking to was doing that, and attributing the involvement of pakistanis in terror plots in the west to rising incidents at home which he attributed directly to UK and US.

you are sane on this point but my impression is the media and the common man in your country does like to point the finger at CIA / RAW / Mossad for just about everything that goes wrong in pak. [note that i am saying impression]
 
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whocares dude u atleast accept tht RAW support BLA.

maybe, but i am not aware of how many people have died at the hand of this movement in pak or what kind of role RAW has played.

btw, Baloch separatism is older than Kashmiri separatism and maybe something you should think about.
 
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maybe, but i am not aware of how many people have died at the hand of this movement in pak or what kind of role RAW has played.

btw, Baloch separatism is older than Kashmiri separatism and maybe something you should think about.

I myself m baloch... and no it started few years back like a dead guy rising from the grave, RAW is supporting BLA and the best example is brahamdagh bugti having an indian passport and indian FM accepting th.
 
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I myself m baloch... and no it started few years back like a dead guy rising from the grave, RAW is supporting BLA and the best example is brahamdagh bugti having an indian passport and indian FM accepting th.

okay. dunno much about BLA. but BLA isn't the only cause of violence inside Pak.

and my whole thread of discussion was about Pakistani terrorism in the west originally.

RAW is a tiny, insignificant org :D
 
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Terrorism and the threat of LET is what west is worried about, pakistan has failed to act to stop this menace thats why the western goverment make strong statements.
 
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With all due respect what else you can do??? Can you imagine such comments being passed on any other country especially the one who is an ally????

Right back at them. How are you looking at this so one sided?

Local comsumption??? PM of "Great Britain" on an offical visit to a foreign land passing such comments and that too repeatedly during various press conferences is for local consumption???? May i ask why is there so much hue and cry in Pakistan when these comments are merely for "Local Consumption"???

I can not argue with you there. Lot of people really do no understand what implications mean. Also to be honest we just look for ways to attract more negative attention. Plus "official visit", "press conference". :foreign land" you accidentally just listed all the things needed for "Local Consumption". Actually I am also not going to argue with you there. It was definitely a huge victory for India and I congratulate them.

Friends don't say such things out in open and that too when one of them is sitting in an adversary land....As far as common goal is concerned then has anything changed??? This is true for all relationships...This was true in the past, today and will remain true in the future as well.....There has to be some convergence of goals for any relationship....B/W cameroon repeatedly said we will do whatever we can to help them(Pak) fight terrorism...He is only assertive regarding accountability as far as terrorism effecting them whose source is from Pakistan....Pretty strong words and clearly a shift from policy in the past....As far as business as usual is concerened then you never know what all has changed/will change or perhaps won't change at all in the background....However can you or I deny that we all were surprised at such a harsh critism coming from an ally and that too when in India?????

Actually you are right .. I wouldnt be the right person to judge strategic realities in the WOT. I am not the right guy. Would the Media or anyone on this forum be a better source? When we can prove something has changed in the WOT we will try to post as much as possible about it. Right at this moment, the money, the guns, and the men are all doing what they were 2 weeks ago. Again thats my perception with what little information I have, that does not change with any news article or forum goers input. So we definately have a dead end on that.

It was always true and will remain true forever....Nothing has changed in this philosofy....
Then we are in complete agreement over the basic workings of the world.

If i am getting it right then perhaps you are pointing to our lucrative markets...right??? It this is true then you are taking a very simplistic view of the whole scenario.....There are many other lucrative markets in the world but all have not managed to get both palestine and israel in the friend list.....Managing Iran and US even after having so called lucrative market is not an easy task.....Getting Russia on board with US due to lucrative markets is not an easy task....Notching trade of worth $60 Billion with a potential rival(read china) is not an easy task...Anyways let me share with you some very important steps that GOI took which is reaping benefits now....

- NAM : Thanks to Pt. Jawaharlal Nehru vision we followed NAM.....We never joined camps and thus are able to manage good relations with Both Russia and US at the same time.....Can you suggest how many countries in the world manage to get such relations after joinining any of these sides??? This NAM helped us achieve this...otherwise lucrative or no lucrative markets making good relations with arch rivals at the same time is a very difficult task....
- Recognition of Israel - In order to appease Arab World India did not recognize Israel for a long time....but in 1991 common sense prevailed and we realized that being friend to both we can help better then being on one side....Even though it looks diffcult yet relationships can be maintained on bilateral term....

- Opening up the markets - All the equaltions change dramatically if you are economically strong....We brought in the reforms and are worlds second fastest growing economy....This with some great initiatives in the past have managed to win us lot of friends....

- Engagement with China : SOme very positive engagement with China has helped us keep our eastern border very quite....We both have trade relations worth $60 Billion and are at a poinjt where conflict is going to hurt both....In short the only way forward is more engagement and resolutions of issues peacefully....

- Democracy : Last but not the least we have managed to remain democratic throughout our life and the way things are going i can very easily say "will remain so"....The democratic set-up(even though a bit flawed but then democracy needs time to mature) helped us win lot of friends.....

Now don't you think there are some great diplomatic initiatives by GOI and we are reaping benefits of those now???? In short even if you become a very lucrative market today there is lot of work that Pakistan would have to do to achieve what India has managed by her diplomacy......because relationships are a little(read a lot) more then import and exports of finished goods!!!!

You managed to list all the reasons why India is now a huge economy and I have always from the bottom of my heart lauded that country for its diplomatic feats. There is no reason for me to feel bad or ashamed about it. We however did became starry eyed when the US came to ask for help with the Russians. It was an opportunity then to project power and that is what happened. No one can deny that this mess goes right back to the root cause of American intervention. I think that was said by their SOS while she was in America. I cannot predict how things would have turned out if we had decided to stay out of it. Could America have thrown some money at other players bordering Afghanistan for different kind of results? Do you think they would have decided to sit this one out?
To sum it up .. India has come a long way within these 10 years economically with good decisions and its reaping the benefits of those decisions.
What kind of Hypocrisy would you think the WOT allies would be engaged in if they said something and do something completely different? Like you said .. I would not know what is going on in the background of this war, but I do know that money and equipment keeps pouring in, and the Allies are not killing our soldiers.. Just my opinion.
 
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iraqi's have been involved

and as for pakistan, count how many suicide bombings there were pre afghan invasion and count how many post invasion

war was exported to pakistan, pakistan is being forced to go war by western powers, thats a fact.

I agree with this statement that war was exported to Pakistan.Pakistan always went and fought the war of other people,where it had no business in the first place.

But,at the same time,it must also be understood,that historically,Pakistani leader have engaged the country in wars of other countries earning a bad reputation.Had the leadership been strong willed enough,these situations could be avoided.

India can be a example in this case.Pakistan had absolutely no immediate necessity to send pilots in the Arab-Israeli war,but it did.Today,they neither have any good relation with the Israelis nor any special kind of relation with the Arabs.Whereas India has excellent relations and trade links with both the Israelis and Arabs.

Pakistan,in my opinion,should have stayed away from US and Soviet conflict in Afghanistan,or atleast,should have engaged in a lower level.But Pakistani leader let them to be used by US and the result is the Kalashnikov culture in Pakistan.India,again stayed out of the mess,and has excellent relations with the US as well as Russia

Again,Pakistan,for its own benefit,should not have actively taken part in WoT,for the stakes were too high.But this time,lets say it was not for Pakistan to decide.its understandable that the Taliban feel backstabbed,as they were once created by the agencies of Pakistan.

It is true that war was exported to Pakistan,but Pakistan,nonetheless imported it as well,for reasons whatever they may be.
 
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I myself m baloch... and no it started few years back like a dead guy rising from the grave, RAW is supporting BLA and the best example is brahamdagh bugti having an indian passport and indian FM accepting th.

Dude, The bold part is pure BS. show the evidence from a credible neutral source and also show us statement by Indian FM acknowledging the same.
 
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Right back at them. How are you looking at this so one sided?

You may not believe it because it is coming from the mouth of an Indian but i would be a happy man if you manage to do it....China is growing her economic clout, India hers....It is high time GOP should join the party....Once you will get the taste of 8%-10% annual growth with stakes increasing in the world politics and you being center of attraction..all these issues would resolve on its own....At the moment unfortunately you need their $$$ badly.....So :( ....


I can not argue with you there. Lot of people really do no understand what implications mean. Also to be honest we just look for ways to attract more negative attention. Plus "official visit", "press conference". :foreign land" you accidentally just listed all the things needed for "Local Consumption". Actually I am also not going to argue with you there. It was definitely a huge victory for India and I congratulate them.
As said before unless and until there is a change in ground all these would be empty words...Now are they, were they or will they remain empty only time will tell....I am not a fanboy so i don't treat it as victory by any stretch of imagination...Yes what i am liking is that India is getting a bit assertive these days....



Actually you are right .. I wouldnt be the right person to judge strategic realities in the WOT. I am not the right guy. Would the Media or anyone on this forum be a better source? When we can prove something has changed in the WOT we will try to post as much as possible about it. Right at this moment, the money, the guns, and the men are all doing what they were 2 weeks ago. Again thats my perception with what little information I have, that does not change with any news article or forum goers input. So we definately have a dead end on that.
I agree so far nothing has changed.... However if i understand cameroon statement properly he was not advocating any change at all....He repeatedly said we will keep helping Pak in their fight...He even praised your efforts of past 2 years...The change/drift is the accountability and allegation about your establishment role in WOT...Such talks were always on...Wiki leaks is one good example...However no-one directly accused your establishment before...



Then we are in complete agreement over the basic workings of the world.
Yes we are....

You managed to list all the reasons why India is now a huge economy and I have always from the bottom of my heart lauded that country for its diplomatic feats. There is no reason for me to feel bad or ashamed about it.
Thanks...i appreciate the comment....


We however did became starry eyed when the US came to ask for help with the Russians. It was an opportunity then to project power and that is what happened.
That's what i challenged....By joining camps you lost opportunity to get best of half of the world......I hate to mention K word but then at that time(refering to 47-71) forcefully take away Kashmir was a higher priority.....So short term gains took over long term gains......And as you said there has to be a common goal for both parties...Once ruskies were defeated as expected US lost interest in the region and left.....The mess is in front of us....So GOP ended up looking like a fool....


No one can deny that this mess goes right back to the root cause of American intervention. I think that was said by their SOS while she was in America. I cannot predict how things would have turned out if we had decided to stay out of it. Could America have thrown some money at other players bordering Afghanistan for different kind of results? Do you think they would have decided to sit this one out?
Well i cannot predict this...but to me an independent foreign policy is a must...I am afraid GOP don't have one......Right from the birth of Pakistan you tilted towards America....That was logical because India was huge and there was a real danger(atleast in pakistan mind) of India forcefully trying to revert back partition....However taking it a step further was in my eyes a bad idea....Like it or not but India is huge...The way i cannot think of defeating China and concentrate only on my defence the same way GOP should have realized this and then play their cards....However blunders like Kargil are just a decade old....

Right now i see more issues with your love for America in the past then benefits...Was it logical to have this level of engagemnt with Americans at that time...may be may be not....Though we also had similar issues when China was a real danger ....US almost on the verge of attacking us(71 war) yet we managed to remain realistic and followed NAM....May be Pak could have managed the similar policy....With such a strategic geographical location...a country rich of natural resources i defnitely think you guys could have achieved much more then where you are today....Anyways i am hopeful there will not be any more coups and Pakistan will emerge as a democratically and economically strong Asian power....

To sum it up .. India has come a long way within these 10 years economically with good decisions and its reaping the benefits of those decisions.
What kind of Hypocrisy would you think the WOT allies would be engaged in if they said something and do something completely different? Like you said .. I would not know what is going on in the background of this war, but I do know that money and equipment keeps pouring in, and the Allies are not killing our soldiers.. Just my opinion.
And i believe that is how it is going to be....Now GOP should pull up their socks...Make the most of the AID package they are receiving...Invest heavily in infrastructure and make their markets lucrative......If possible engage with India by the means of trade....and the most important do whatever they can to ensure no more mumbai's in any part of the world with its roots in Pak.....
 
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Couldn't help joining it. If you like peaty single malts - do try Caol Ila and Smokehead. Even Laphroaig.

Laphroaig is one of the few that I never let go out of stock in my bar. The other 2 are untried by me. Will pick them up next time I travel

:cheers:
 
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This is rediculous! What common people has do in this discussion. We are talking about games plyed at higher level where everybody knows that zionism has been using india against Pakistan.

i dont have to overestimate here abt India but Zionism is not using India but we are coordinating each other to put it in a fair way. We aren't just dependent on them,... they are too, 2 way street unlike what Pak got for the better part of 50 yrs for being an allie. India was basically neglected by west for our closer relations to socialists i.e Russia. Only now when they are realizing some potential, are they showing interest. Economic strength matters and geo politics revolve arnd it. One one in the histroy has been a military superpower for long without economic strength. West knows that and my hunch is indian leaders are understanding that.. what it brings in terms of geo political aspirations.
 
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We support them back. We help in their designs to which they call us terrorists. It will not hinder any payment coming in. For sharp words, saying you are sad is downright stupid. Better would be to openly say that whatever comments coming out of the people who have a stake in this WOT does not affect what is being done.
A few counter punches will be in our best interest.

I wud be naive to say that Pak isn't using its chips and getting sth or whatever is possible from NATO countries for its involvement in WOT.

But however u want to play around, ur BOSS is America here. u support them back by getting in return some kickbacks to ur economy or to just ur politicians or both !!

Just to draw parallel, it reminds me a Quote from Godfather (movie), i paraphrase it : America gave u 2 choices and u can't reject it, gun (to blow u off in anyways) or join them ( u complain but may be politicians get sth out of it and probably more ) however we may argue and complain in this WOT, head of the house is USA.
 
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Local comsumption??? PM of "Great Britain" on an offical visit to a foreign land passing such comments and that too repeatedly during various press conferences is for local consumption????

Of course Cameron's comments were for his Indian audience. That is why he made them during a trade visit to India and not at 10 Downing Street.

Anyways let me share with you some very important steps that GOI took which is reaping benefits now....

I don't think most of them, except the economy, have anything to do with the West's courtship of India.


India was solidly in the Soviet camp; nobody bought the NAM charade.

Recognition of Israel

This helped India tremendously by bringing the hugely powerful Zionist lobbies in the West to its side, especially against Pakistan. India diplomatic successes are arguably due more to the Zionist lobbies than Indian diplomats themselves.

Opening up the markets

This one is true.

Engagement with China

This is the classic case of 'saying nice doggie until you find a stone'. India and China are on a collision course and both countries know it. India is not spending all this money on weapons just for show.

Democracy

Western businesses and government don't give a damn about democracy. Even the Western media makes noises about it only as a cover for other agendas.

Bottom line, the West's love for India mushroomed about the same time that China started its meteoric rise, and India recornized Israel. India's economy is also important, but it is a secondary concern in relation to strategic security concerns. i.e. China, Israel.

I think your judgment about Anti Pakistan OZ is bias.

The Australian media is one of the worst in terms of pandering to various ethnic minorities. You will almost never see any negative coverage of India, China, Vietnam, Greece, Thailand, or any of the major ethnic groups living in Australia, although they do make exceptions for Muslims, quelle surprise!.

You will find cooking shows about the most miniscule of Australian minorities, but none about Pakistani cuisine. Ditto for art and music. The free (News Corp.) commuter magazine mX showcased fashion shows in Sri Lanka, Colombia, Vietnam and African countries, but gave zero coverage to Pakistani fashion shows.

The only time you will hear about Pakistan in Australian media, other than cricket, is in a negative conext. It repeats Indian assertions verbatim as "news" without qualifying them or allowing a counter statement. And it promotes only those Pakistanis who toe the Western line about blaming Pakistan first -- Imran Khan is the only exception because of his cricket fame.

Indians are big community in Australia.

That's the whole point. I have no problem if Australian media caters to the large Indian community. What I object to is that they attack Pakistan and dare not show anything positive about Pakistan for fear of alienating the Indians, especially after the student attacks.

So Indians are doing many extraordinary efforts to act like a accepted community, not aliens, are scattered randomly and are not like others those who like to live in their own majority pockets of areas and do bussiness there.

Indians are no more or less integrated than other communities. There are Indian ghettos, just as there are ghettos of otgher ethnicities. At the same time, there is a large Indian student population, which lives dispersed to find the cheapest housing -- as all student populations do.

Also people from many ethic backgrounds do like Indian movies in OZ. So there is definitely a market.

That's a circular argument. While I have always recognized India's soft power, the fact is that it is familiarity that breeds appreciation. If people rarely or never saw Indian movies (or Japanese anime or Hong Kong martial arts movies), they would not develop a taste for them. Conversely, if people saw lots of Nigerian movies (which outnumber Bollywood in sheer numbers per year), they would start liking them.

no other kind of immigrant makes the kind of fuss a significant number of muslims do. no other kind of immigrant is plotting bomb explosions and terror attacks.

r3alist already answered your assertions but let me add a couple of points.

It is the media that creates stereotypes by selective reporting. Every time a muslim commits a crime, it is reported as such and their religion and ethnicity are mentioned up-front. The same is not true of other religions/ethnicities; in fact most of these crimes are not even reported in the mainstream media. For example, the Australian media gives front page headlines every time a muslim or Lebanese person runs afoul of the law, but there is almost no coverage of Vietnamese and Samoan gangs, or Chinese and Thai prostitution rings.

You may be surprised to learn that most of the challenges to christian prayers and other symbolism in the west comes not from muslims but from jews and atheists. Yet the media makes it sound like muslims are challenging the host culture at every turn.

Integration, or lack thereof, is a dog whistle term to legitimize racial and religious bigotry. When sikhs wear a turban, or jews wear a yarmulka, they are not accused of 'not integrating'. But when muslim women wear a head scarf, everybody has apoplectic reactions. Similarly for building religious schools or centers of worship.

Or take the BBC show "Make me a Muslim". In it they had the perfect opportunity to showcase well 'integrated', middle class, ordinary British muslims. But did they pick such individuals? Of course not! Instead they went out of their way to pick the most alien looking creatures, walking the streets of Britain in long Arabic robes, and talking in barely comprehensible, thick foreign accents. It is all part of a pattern to stereotype muslims as violence-prone aliens.

The fact is that many people in the West resent all non-white immigrants but they can't say anything because of political correctness. So when the media legitimizes bigotry against a particular immigrant group, it gives the closet racists a cathartic release for their pent up anger.

As far as terrorism, as others have mentioned, other groups would also resort to violence if Western countries were supporting a colonial outpost on their land and were engaged in wholesale massacre in their homelands.

haha I get it... Seriously though I love curry. Nothing better in life than a good curry and a cold beer.

Well, curry is common to both India and Pakistan (and maybe Sri Lanka as well.)

It is true that war was exported to Pakistan,but Pakistan,nonetheless imported it as well,for reasons whatever they may be.

That's because we have not had too many politicians willing to do the hard work and build up a strong self-sufficient Pakistan. Most of them took the short term approach of selling out the country to the highest bidder.

Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, for all his other flaws, at least had some policies putting Pakistan's interests first (except for his little tantrum that lost East Pakistan, I know, but that's a complicated and off-topic subject). In any case he redeemed himself with later actions that benefitted Pakistan greatly.
 
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