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India Doesn’t Want to Be a Pawn in a U.S.-China Great Game

Allow me to simplify.

USA under Biden or Trump will never force Modi out of Kashmir.

Joint military action between China and Pakistan is now the only option to remove every trace of India from Kashmir.

USA under Biden will confuse Pakistan into sitting on the fence as you state. A whole bunch of pseudo-liberal (I say pseudo-liberal because that's what they are. True Pakistani liberals are noble patriots in every sense of the word. My exchanges with a number of genuine Pakistani liberals confirms this, maybe I'm borderline one myself) misdirectors will work with Biden-funded, Soros-instigated NGOs to push Pakistan off track, dilute our alliance with China and politicise all sorts of issues domestically that will render Pakistan ineffective internationally. Biden may also craftily instigate the likes of PPP or PML-N. We all know the story - demonstrations backed by precious American snowflaky media and NGOs will be labelled as "reformists" against Pakistan's awfully evil "powerful military influence" blah blah ad nauseam.

Democrats simply are addicted to nation building. It is like a drug for them ever since the Clinton era. They will use secret (or plausibly deniable) drone strikes, NGOs and proxies to do their dirty work, hence at ZERO human or material cost to public opinion back home.

Pakistan must stay well away from USA and Trump makes that easier. The democrats confuse our naive population too easily. Obama's election and early promises of engagement with Muslim nations almost made Pakistanis stuff mithai in each other's mouths - what a waste of time he was.

If Pakistanis are reading this, watch out for the democrats - they're not your friends. They're India's.

Pakistan must firmly align with China. To do so, USA must be ditched. Countries like Israel, Saudi, UAE who are American regional allies can be dealt with on a case by case basis.

OK, you do make your position and views very clear on this. But I am sure it's a minority viewpoint within actual Pakistani government circles. Of course, there will be a minority of politicians/military commanders who espouse what you do here, but someone like Imran Khan and his government advisors wouldn't tread on the path you mentioned.

What you're really advocating for is an all-out war against India (and hoping China and Turkey join that conflict). This is what a lot of Defence.pk posters with aggressive postures towards India also advocate here all the time. So, I'm definitely familiar with this viewpoint.

You're basically willing to take a gamble on the issue of Kashmir, even though it comes at the risk of causing widespread destruction and havoc in your country.

I am sure when your country is emerging from a crisis due to Nawaz Sharif and other corrupt persons siphoning the wealth for their own needs, the last thing you need is a conflict with India. Someone like Imran Khan understands that very well.

We can have all sorts of theories such as India provoking Pakistan in the future, Narendra Modi's Sanghis attacking Pakistan-administered Kashmir, etc. But if that is what you're really banking on, then you shouldn't call yourself a liberal. You're another warmonger like some of the other Pakistani posters here who often deliberately annoy me (don't want to take names).

Yes, you're a polite person unlike those rabid creatures, and someone who is articulate and suave. Those are the kind of qualities I greatly admire and respect. Also, I thank you daily for the English tuitions you give me for free (as well as Joe). You will continue to remain my first point of contact when I want to discuss any Pakistan-related topic on here.

But, I am really sad to inform you, a liberal person you are not. No liberal can be a warmonger. A liberal person always tries to defuse tensions, and rise above every kind of populist narrative. Being a liberal is harder than being a "patriot," "nationalist," and all the other things. There are millions of people in India on the opposite end of the spectrum who also are warmongers.

At best, you can call yourself a Pakistan-based centrist politician as I understand you usually support secular positions.
 
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OK, you do make your position and views very clear on this. But I am sure it's a minority viewpoint within actual Pakistani government circles. Of course, there will be a minority of politicians/military commanders who espouse what you do here, but someone like Imran Khan and his government advisors wouldn't tread on the path you mentioned.

What you're really advocating for is an all-out war against India (and hoping China and Turkey join that conflict). This is what a lot of Defence.pk posters with aggressive postures towards India also advocate here all the time. So, I'm definitely familiar with this viewpoint.

You're basically willing to take a gamble on the issue of Kashmir, even though it comes at the risk of causing widespread destruction and havoc in your country.

I am sure when your country is emerging from a crisis due to Nawaz Sharif and other corrupt persons siphoning the wealth for their own needs, the last thing you need is a conflict with India. Someone like Imran Khan understands that very well.

We can have all sorts of theories such as India provoking Pakistan in the future, Narendra Modi's Sanghis attacking Pakistan-administered Kashmir, etc. But if that is what you're really banking out on, then you shouldn't call yourself a liberal. You're a warmonger like some of the other Pakistani posters here who often deliberately annoy me (don't want to take names). Yes, you're a polite person, and someone who is articulate and suave. Those are the kind of qualities I greatly respect. You will continue to remain my first point of contact when I want to discuss any Pakistan-related topic on here.

But, I am really sad to inform you, a liberal person you are not. No liberal can be a warmonger.

At best, you can call yourself a Pakistan-based centrist politician as I understand you usually support secular positions.
Since when is "liberalism" analagous with "pacifism"?

Similarly, you are automatically assuming conservatives or communists or libertarians cannot be pacifists by definition.

This is not accurate in my opinion.

Anyway, that is irrelevant to the topic.

As for going to war with India, it will happen - the only question is when. Pakistan must remain in a position to choose when this happens so that it can go to war when it suits Pakistan best. This will be Pakistan's challenge for now. It is certainly a gamble, but India has left Pakistan with no choice. Folks like you who genuinely believe in the UN resolutions will never ever be in a position to have that viewpoint become national policy. We can all see that clearly now. Nehru's promises are dead and buried.

None of us - mullahs, liberals, nationalists, socialists, secularists, minority groups, majority groups - wanted war with India. Modi however made it clear that this is the only option.

Tell me one single oppressed Muslim nation that has been gifted its freedom from its oppressors without war in the last hundred years. Please name just one. I can name you a good few non-Muslim nations liberated from or carved out from Muslim governed nations. Likewise, I can name you a couple of Muslim-governed nations forcibly created thanks to armed conflict from non-Muslim oppressors. Kashmir will not be free without war.
 
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None of us - mullahs, liberals, nationalists, socialists, secularists, minority groups, majority groups - wanted war with India. Modi however made it clear that this is the only option.

"Mommy, Ahmed hit me first in the playground. I only retaliated, I swear." :rofl:

Tell me one single oppressed Muslim nation that has been gifted its freedom from its oppressors without war in the last hundred years. Please name just one. I can name you a good few non-Muslim nations liberated from or carved out from Muslim governed nations. Likewise, I can name you a couple of Muslim-governed nations forcibly created thanks to armed conflict from non-Muslim oppressors. Kashmir will not be free without war.

We will see.

Pakistan's situation is not similar to countries such as Kosovo, Bosnia, Somaliland, and other examples which you want to give.

Also, India is a different beast...it's not Serbia etc. You'll be in for a rude awakening if and when such a fantasy becomes reality. That is why I know it's a minority viewpoint within your country's government circles.
 
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Since when is "liberalism" analagous with "pacifism"?

Similarly, you are automatically assuming conservatives or communists or libertarians cannot be pacifists by definition.

This is not accurate in my opinion.

True to my liberal credentials, I will try to defuse the tensions between the two countries till the last f*****g moment. I will not go with the flow of "nationalism." I have the courage of my convictions to do what is right.

A liberal sees the goodness in all human beings, not just in his own countrymen. So, defusing tensions comes naturally to a true liberal.
 
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"Mommy, Ahmed hit me first in the playground. I only retaliated, I swear." :rofl:



We will see.

Pakistan's situation is not similar to countries such as Kosovo, Bosnia, Somaliland, and other examples which you want to give.

Also, India is a different beast...it's not Serbia etc. You'll be in for a rude awakening if and when such a fantasy becomes reality. That is why I know it's a minority viewpoint within your country's government circles.
I would have agreed with you until Galwan surprised us all. China and Pakistan vs India is a totally different paradigm to Pakistan vs India.
 
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That's what YOU think will happen 8-)

I would have agreed with you until Galwan surprised us all. China and Pakistan vs India is a totally different paradigm to Pakistan vs India.

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"Mommy, Ahmed hit me first in the playground. I only retaliated, I swear." :rofl:



We will see.

Pakistan's situation is not similar to countries such as Kosovo, Bosnia, Somaliland, and other examples which you want to give.

Also, India is a different beast...it's not Serbia etc. You'll be in for a rude awakening if and when such a fantasy becomes reality. That is why I know it's a minority viewpoint within your country's government circles.

India is not Serbia. India is a bigger Yugoslavia. Created by the great powers without the input of its people. In this case, India was created by the British to serve their interests, till this day.

In another word, the world is still waiting for the people of India to obtain freedom.
 
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India is not Serbia. India is a bigger Yugoslavia. Created by the great powers without the input of its people. In this case, India was created by the British to serve their interests, till this day.

In another word, the world is still waiting for the people of India to obtain freedom.

Come on, I've heard this BS line on here a thousand times.

India is certainly a mixture of different linguistic groups of similar or varying ethnicities. Each if left alone, could form their own nation. But all of them are also bound by a common culture, music, literature, dietary preferences, and a shared history that goes back at least 3000 years. This fulfills all the criteria of a nation in the modern sense.

Also the languages aren't as dissimilar as one would think. For example, if you transport a monolingual Tamil speaker to Punjab (India), he might struggle to communicate with everyone. But over a period of months, without much external assistance, he will be able to comprehend his surroundings. Because all Indian languages have derived plenty of root words from Pali-Prakrit or Sanskrit.
 
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India Doesn’t Want to Be a Pawn in a U.S.-China Great Game

Beijing’s belligerence is driving New Delhi closer toward Washington—but with strings attached.
By Atman Trivedi| August 7, 2020, 2:05 PM
GettyImages-599079016.jpg

Chinese President Xi Jinping shakes hands with Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi at the G20 Summit on September 4th, 2016, in Hangzhou, China. Lintao Zhang/Getty Images
China’s increasingly strident territorial claims and economic coercion have forced startled governments such as those in India, Japan, Taiwan, and Vietnam to strengthen relations with friends that can help them respond effectively. In recent months, India has arguably suffered the most from China’s lack of restraint: New Delhi is trapped in a slow-moving border stand-off with Beijing that has already left more than 20 troops dead.

The possibility of greater international coordination to rein in Beijing should be especially appealing to New Delhi. When it comes to potential partners, India enjoys a big geopolitical advantage over China—most of the West roots for a rising, democratic country. Meanwhile, China’s list of allies isn’t very long and includes problematic governments such as those of North Korea and Pakistan.

Countries may instinctively prefer India, but depending on how its current border stand-off with China is resolved, New Delhi’s traditional aversion to security and trade alliances could complicate partnerships. To encourage Indian choices that facilitate alignment, countries such as the United States need to be a more consistent friend, and sometimes to be prepared to play the long game when interests diverge on issues such as partnering with Russia. If India makes the right decisions, its democratic institutions, market potential, and demographics position it as a leading power that can make a difference in managing China and the global commons.

Even casual observers of India are aware of its postcolonial outlook: New Delhi famously adopted a strategy of so-called nonalignment to maximize its options and minimize potential restraints. India’s External Affairs Minister Subrahmanyam Jaishankar recently described this policy as comprising a fierce independent streak intended to preserve decision-making autonomy, coupled with a more cautious and at times passive approach as a nascent power. Proponents of nonalignment have a preference for a multipolar world with several different power centers.

Times have substantially changed. For more than a decade, a stronger, more confident India has shed its reluctance about defense collaboration with the United States and U.S. allies such as Japan. India’s own aspirations and concerns about China’s growing ambitions have propelled this evolution, and Beijing’s recent overreaching could accelerate it.

After last month’s lethal border brawl, several developments show that China is pushing India toward the United States and its allies. India seems poised to invite Australia to the annual military exercises that include Japan and the United States. Much to the Trump administration’s delight, the Indian government is signaling that it may exclude Huawei from national 5G trials. And the globally disseminated images of the Indian navy sailing alongside a U.S. carrier strike group in the Indian Ocean showed a changed relationship.

But growing security coordination shouldn’t mask the reality of a deliberate process that has so far fallen short of balancing China. In fact, India’s acute sense of a power asymmetry with China may help explain why it tread carefully with Beijing after their last major border confrontation in 2017. This military and financial gap may not close quickly, as India has fared worse in the early stages of the pandemic. But the imbalance will likely accelerate Indian defense purchases, as apparently is already happening.

New Delhi could decide against a closer alignment with Washington and its allies, especially if it constrains other relationships.

New Delhi could decide against a closer alignment with Washington and its allies, especially if it constrains other relationships. Consider recent developments in India’s longstanding relationship with Russia. Barely a week after India’s deadly border skirmish with China, Jaishankar kept a virtual appointment with his Russian and Chinese counterparts. Meanwhile, despite the domestic crises sparked by the pandemic, India’s defense minister rushed off to Moscow for consultations with India’s largest weapons supplier. More recently, Indian officials reportedly have renewed interest in Russia joining the U.S.-led Indo-Pacific framework to maintain a rules-based region. That would be consistent with the view often articulated by India’s top diplomats that today’s increasingly multipolar world offers opportunities for New Delhi to maneuver.New Delhi could decide against a closer alignment with Washington and its allies, especially if it constrains other relationships.


Lingering questions about the reliability of the United States, the European Union’s cohesion (at least until recently), and fears of Western retrenchment that predated the global populist wave could also activate latent Indian concerns about abandonment. The Trump administration’s visible support for India during the ongoing border crisis has registered in New Delhi, but the capital also isn’t blind to how the White House has treated its closest friends. At the moment, Indian officials may be able to shrug off the latter precisely because their country is not a military ally, but a significantly closer relationship could raise the stakes and possibly change New Delhi’s strategy.

Even if China’s assertiveness continues to push India closer to like-minded countries, New Delhi’s trade policies, particularly pending rules in digital commerce, pose a potential challenge. India has taken a series of steps in recent years to protect its markets from Chinese imports. But when aiming at China, India has sometimes hit friends. Trade restrictions have included tariffs and tax hikes, local content requirements, and other policies that apply globally, including to U.S. firms.

Border clashes with China have reawakened New Delhi’s interest in deeper defense ties with the United States, and Washington is hoping to deliver the goods.

India and the United States Need Each Other Mostly Because of China
Just 50 years ago, Washington was trying to intimidate New Delhi so it could cozy up to Beijing. China’s rise has brought the world’s two largest democracies closer.

Despite trade differences, countries want India inside the room when cutting deals, for reasons beyond its market size. They value its influence and role in setting rules and building regional architecture. It’s why—as Singapore’s prime minister recently acknowledged—the countries negotiating the Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership “hope that India will join one day.” Yet India withdrew from talks last November, while its trade negotiations with Australia, Canada, the European Union, and others have sputtered or stalled. So far, even a long-promised, limited trade agreement has eluded India and the United States.

Countries want India inside the room when cutting deals.

Shared concerns over China will likely encourage countries to isolate trade disagreements with India. But Washington’s protectionist turn suggests that segregating trade and security matters is not easy in practice. The Trump administration backed out of a landmark Pacific trade pact with U.S. partners, imposed duties on trusted allies under the guise of national security, hogtied the World Trade Organization, and went after China alone. Importantly, in the process, the president alienated the same friends who find fault with China’s “market-distorting state capitalism”—and took a step towards Beijing’s economic model.

Depending on when and how countries emerge from the pandemic, exhausted and long-suffering publics may have limited patience for trade reforms that could hurt domestic businesses in the short term. In such an environment, New Delhi would be under greater pressure to skillfully juggle competing domestic and international imperatives, including keeping critical partnerships on track.

New Delhi’s friends, of course, will have a say in how their relationships with India grow to shape China’s choices. In a recent virtual session with his American counterpart this month, Jaishankar offered some candid advice: “I think the United States really has to learn to work with a more multipolar world with more plurilateral arrangements, go beyond alliances with which it has grown up over the last two generations.” His words could be a plea for more flexible thinking. Leaning into the strategic opportunity that China has created means not taking India for granted or forcing its hand. Washington may need to work harder to earn New Delhi’s support at the outset of collaboration, and also manage its own expectations for the relationship. It needs to be prepared for when India’s near-term interests and ambitions diverge from time-to-time with the United States and its allies, such as on opening markets or Russia’s international role.

The good news is that there is yet tremendous room for growth in U.S.-India ties; a partnership that does not resemble a traditional U.S. alliance would nevertheless offer considerable shared benefits, not the least of which is helping ensure no one country dominates Asia’s future.

To find common ground, India’s like-minded partners will need to demonstrate reliability, exhibit patience and care in addressing New Delhi-Moscow defense ties, and a far-sighted but firm approach to handling trade disagreements—one that is ideally guided by a broader vision that can help bridge immediate differences. Relaunching the moribund Trade Policy Forum would be a good beginning. As India and other democracies engage more purposefully on a larger agenda, New Delhi may find there is far more on offer than in its circumscribed relationship with Moscow.

Recent moves like banning scores of Chinese apps or tweaking FDI rules indicate India may be increasingly resigned to strategic competition. But partners should be mindful New Delhi will also want to preserve diplomatic space to manage relations with Beijing—a neighbor with whom India must find ways to coexist and benefit more from China’s prosperity. Amid growing nationalism, India has made it clear it doesn’t want to be a pawn in someone else’s Great Game and openly chafes at the idea of being regarded as “a counterweight.”

Over the past 70 plus years, the United States has grappled with the underacknowledged difficulties of managing alliances. India and its partners may similarly find that long-distance friendships demand assiduous cultivation. New Delhi’s continuing need for a degree of independence introduces more complexity, with or without Beijing flexing its muscles.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/08/07/india-doesnt-want-to-be-a-pawn-in-a-u-s-china-great-game/
India is the only regional country, bwho is participating against China.
 
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Don't bank on China. You will have to fight your own war (if it comes).
CPEC and the rest of the strategic China-Pakistan partnership basically guarantees that there will be a Chinese Pakistani joint military alliance. If war erupts between India and either of the two countries, the other will join the conflict as well.
OK, you do make your position and views very clear on this. But I am sure it's a minority viewpoint within actual Pakistani government circles. Of course, there will be a minority of politicians/military commanders who espouse what you do here, but someone like Imran Khan and his government advisors wouldn't tread on the path you mentioned.

What you're really advocating for is an all-out war against India (and hoping China and Turkey join that conflict). This is what a lot of Defence.pk posters with aggressive postures towards India also advocate here all the time. So, I'm definitely familiar with this viewpoint.

You're basically willing to take a gamble on the issue of Kashmir, even though it comes at the risk of causing widespread destruction and havoc in your country.

I am sure when your country is emerging from a crisis due to Nawaz Sharif and other corrupt persons siphoning the wealth for their own needs, the last thing you need is a conflict with India. Someone like Imran Khan understands that very well.

We can have all sorts of theories such as India provoking Pakistan in the future, Narendra Modi's Sanghis attacking Pakistan-administered Kashmir, etc. But if that is what you're really banking on, then you shouldn't call yourself a liberal. You're another warmonger like some of the other Pakistani posters here who often deliberately annoy me (don't want to take names).

Yes, you're a polite person unlike those rabid creatures, and someone who is articulate and suave. Those are the kind of qualities I greatly admire and respect. Also, I thank you daily for the English tuitions you give me for free (as well as Joe). You will continue to remain my first point of contact when I want to discuss any Pakistan-related topic on here.

But, I am really sad to inform you, a liberal person you are not. No liberal can be a warmonger. A liberal person always tries to defuse tensions, and rise above every kind of populist narrative. Being a liberal is harder than being a "patriot," "nationalist," and all the other things. There are millions of people in India on the opposite end of the spectrum who also are warmongers.

At best, you can call yourself a Pakistan-based centrist politician as I understand you usually support secular positions.
I have to agree with this. Pakistan will most likely liberate a J&K that is in complete rubble. I have no doubt the Indians will completely raze Kashmiri cities to the ground when they withdraw ... not to mention the destruction from air and artillery attacks.
 
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