India-China: The real military equation

[janon]

i dont know why there are so many indians in this forum who say our infrastructures in Tibet are good.can somebody tell me?are they really so good in your mind?how if compared to other places of China?

China to finish Tibet rail line close to Indian border soon - India - DNA

China has five airbases, extensive rail-road networks in Tibet: Antony - Times Of India

Road network extends to all corners in Tibet_English_Xinhua


And from an Indian (military) POV:


China's Infrastructure Development in Tibet

How Tibet's infrastructure compares to the rest of China is not relevant to Indians. What matters to the Indian military planners is the fact that China can rapidly bring division after division of troops to the border in case of a conflict. And that ability is what India hopes to thwart, through intelligent use of airpower, and other tactics.

 

[UKBengali]

Are you kidding me. J-10b matching Rafale. With $40 million a piece, it is not even one-fourth in cpability of Rafale.



100,000+ supercarriers..-WTF

J-10B versus Rafale - Present J-10A can hold it's own against Su-27/30 and the new J-10B is a very radical upgrade. It's capabilities will be similar to the Rafale despite what Indians hope for. At the end of the day, the Rafale is still a 4th generation plane, albeit one of the best ones.

100,000+ supercarriers - China already has J-20, J-31 and Y-20 in flight testing. No-one thought that would be possible but it has happened. It has both the capability and intent to go for massive aircraft carriers. Wait 10 years and then you will see who is right.

 

[Shinigami]

J-10B versus Rafale - Present J-10A can hold it's own against Su-27/30 and the new J-10B is a very radical upgrade. It's capabilities will be similar to the Rafale despite what Indians hope for. At the end of the day, the Rafale is still a 4th generation plane, albeit one of the best ones.

100,000+ supercarriers - China already has J-20, J-31 and Y-20 in flight testing. No-one thought that would be possible but it has happened. It has both the capability and intent to go for massive aircraft carriers. Wait 10 years and then you will see who is right.

buddy, take a break from cheerleading and get back to reality.
Do u know who makes RAFALE? Dassault. a company withh 100 years of experiance and a proven track record of making top notch western fighters. And Rafale is their newest baby which 5 years from now India will be manufacturing. j10B is more comparable to a mirage 2000.

100,000+ supercarriers!!! Oh the cheerleaders.
Let them let them learn to operate the soviet carrier first. 10 years from now they will come up with 60k tonne carrier. not to mention the time it takes to come up with an operational doctrine. we have been using carriers for decades (and used it to free your country) but still are far from perfect

 

[UKBengali]

buddy, take a break from cheerleading and get back to reality.
Do u know who makes RAFALE? Dassault. a company withh 100 years of experiance and a proven track record of making top notch western fighters. And Rafale is their newest baby which 5 years from now India will be manufacturing. j10B is more comparable to a mirage 2000.

100,000+ supercarriers!!! Oh the cheerleaders.
Let them let them learn to operate the soviet carrier first. 10 years from now they will come up with 60k tonne carrier. not to mention the time it takes to come up with an operational doctrine. we have been using carriers for decades (and used it to free your country) but still are far from perfect

Rafale - Dumb logic.

China is currently developing aircraft that are much more advanced that the French Rafale. It has many times more resources than the French will ever have. And Dassault does not have 100 of years of experience. Dassault maybe has a couple of decades head start but China for multiple reasons is progressing much quicker now.

Supercarriers - Indian logic is India fails and so others will do.

 

[Hellraiser007]

Rafale - Dumb logic.

China is currently developing aircraft that are much more advanced that the French Rafale. It has many times more resources than the French will ever have. And Dassault does not have 100 of years of experience. Dassault maybe has a couple of decades head start but China for multiple reasons is progressing much quicker now.

Supercarriers - Indian logic is India fails and so others will do.

J20 needs Russian engines and GOD only knows about the radar of it.

For 5th gen fighter jet Engine, Radar and avionics are most important and Chinese are depending on downgraded export versions of Russian ones for some of them on the list.

Any body can make a stealth frame even Iran did it.

Even the J31 stealth fighter frame is similar to F35 and any body who knows the radar signature of F35 can easily down it

BD logic find a big guy and cheer for him

 

[Shinigami]

Rafale - Dumb logic.

China is currently developing aircraft that are much more advanced that the French Rafale. It has many times more resources than the French will ever have. And Dassault does not have 100 of years of experience. Dassault maybe has a couple of decades head start but China for multiple reasons is progressing much quicker now.

Supercarriers - Indian logic is India fails and so others will do.

i said Dassault was a company with almost 100 years of experiance, not 100s
are u familiar with the kill ratio dassault fighters have? and their proven track record. the chinese cannot close that gap in tech for the next 50 years.
the 'much more advanced' aircraft they are developing are j20 and that f35 copy. right? dont know much about the f35 copy but the J20 is actually a bomber. the confusing thing is that even though its supposed to be stealth, it has canards. experts say this may be a propaganda machine to display prestigious hardpower, the A/C also comes under this equation. the fact is china relies more on asymmetric hardware considering its principle adversary is the US.
Supercarriers - prove me wrong or forever be labelled a BD cheerleader

 

[Koovie]

Rafale - Dumb logic.

China is currently developing aircraft that are much more advanced that the French Rafale. It has many times more resources than the French will ever have. And Dassault does not have 100 of years of experience. Dassault maybe has a couple of decades head start but China for multiple reasons is progressing much quicker now.

Supercarriers - Indian logic is India fails and so others will do.

No proofs makes our statement ridiculous and shows nothing more than online fanboy mentality and your cheerleading attitude...

Fact is: Dassault planes have better combat records than any Chinese plane.

Period.!

 

[Hellraiser007]

i said Dassault was a company with almost 100 years of experiance, not 100s
are u familiar with the kill ratio dassault fighters have? and their proven track record. the chinese cannot close that gap in tech for the next 50 years.
the 'much more advanced' aircraft they are developing are j20 and that f35 copy. right? dont know much about the f35 copy but the J20 is actually a bomber. the confusing thing is that even though its supposed to be stealth, it has canards. experts say this may be a propaganda machine to display prestigious hardpower, the A/C also comes under this equation. the fact is china relies more on asymmetric hardware considering its principle adversary is the US.
Supercarriers - prove me wrong or forever be labelled a BD cheerleader

Going by the size of the aircraft and internal weapon bay J20 is a Bomber but the canards are confusing indeed.

 

[Shinigami]

No proofs makes our statement ridiculous and shows nothing more than online fanboy mentality and your cheerleading attitude...

Fact is: Dassault planes have better combat records than any Chinese plane.

Period.!

i dont think any chinese plane has any combat record.
regarding dassault, the IsAF used mirages.

 

[UKBengali]

i said Dassault was a company with almost 100 years of experiance, not 100s
are u familiar with the kill ratio dassault fighters have? and their proven track record. the chinese cannot close that gap in tech for the next 50 years.
the 'much more advanced' aircraft they are developing are j20 and that f35 copy. right? dont know much about the f35 copy but the J20 is actually a bomber. the confusing thing is that even though its supposed to be stealth, it has canards. experts say this may be a propaganda machine to display prestigious hardpower, the A/C also comes under this equation. the fact is china relies more on asymmetric hardware considering its principle adversary is the US.
Supercarriers - prove me wrong or forever be labelled a BD cheerleader

So Dassault maybe has more experience - what does that mean anyway?

Experience is not everything.

China manufactures J-10 currently while Dassault used Mirage-2000 as a base to start on Rafale.

At the end of day, is Mirage-2000 a much better aircraft than J-10? I have not heard of anyone credible saying so.

Rafale is still only 4th generation tech, it may be one of the best, but the Chinese are already working on 5th generation. The J-20/J-31 may not be as good as F-22 but they will blow Rafale out of the sky easily. India better pray that the Russians somehow turn the PAK-FA into a true stealth platform otherwise J-20s and J-31s will also be eating that for breakfast as well.

Face it, France is not progressing at anywhere near the rate that China is as it does not have anywhere near the amount of resources to spend.

Indians like to hype Rafale as they have no choice but to spend billions purchasing what is a 4th generation aircraft due to the fact that they are incapable if producing their own

No proofs makes our statement ridiculous and shows nothing more than online fanboy mentality and your cheerleading attitude...

Fact is: Dassault planes have better combat records than any Chinese plane.

Period.!

I suggest you read more on the Internet.

 

[Shinigami]

So Dassault maybe has more experience - what does that mean anyway?

Experience is not everything.

China manufactures J-10 currently while Dassault used Mirage-2000 as a base to start on Rafale.

At the end of day, is Mirage-2000 a much better aircraft than J-10? I have not heard of anyone credible saying so.

Rafale is still only 4th generation tech, it may be one of the best, but the Chinese are already working on 5th generation. The J-20/J-31 may not be as good as F-22 but they will blow Rafale out of the sky easily. India better pray that the Russians somehow turn the PAK-FA into a true stealth platform otherwise J-20s and J-31s will also be eating that for breakfast as well.

Face it, France is not progressing at anywhere near the rate that China is as it does not have anywhere near the amount of resources to spend.

Indians like to hype Rafale as they have no choice but to spend billions purchasing what is a 4th generation aircraft due to the fact that they are incapable if producing their own



I suggest you read more on the Internet.

This is why i am against BDs discussing about this kind of stuff. most of your lot have no idea about this area and end up as chinese cheerleaders.

Lets examine your absurdities individually

China manufactures J-10 currently while Dassault used Mirage-2000 as a base to start on Rafale.

please take a good look and tell me what is common between them besides the delta wing

At the end of day, is Mirage-2000 a much better aircraft than J-10? I have not heard of anyone credible saying so.

Its COMMON SENSE.
conversely, is J10B equal to mirage 2000? I have not heard of anyone credible saying so.

Rafale is still only 4th generation tech, it may be one of the best, but the Chinese are already working on 5th generation. The J-20/J-31 may not be as good as F-22 but they will blow Rafale out of the sky easily.

did you not understand what i said earlier?experts say this may be a propaganda machine to display prestigious hardpower, the carrier also comes under this equation. the fact is china relies more on asymmetric hardware considering its principle adversary is the US.

besides J20 cannot do squat against because its a bomber(with CANARDS). and the j31 is a copy of the F35 in its appearance only. inside it, its chinese. the rafale can smash them without blinking. Like someone pointed out earlier, china gets its advanced stuff like engine and radars from Ruskies.

India better pray that the Russians somehow turn the PAK-FA into a true stealth platform otherwise J-20s and J-31s will also be eating that for breakfast as well.

Oh God!! The height of BD cheerleading you are comparing PakFA, manufactured by the same guys who gave us the legendary SU27, with J20/J31.
God help Bangladesh

Face it, France is not progressing at anywhere near the rate that China is as it does not have anywhere near the amount of resources to spend.

Dassault earns their bread and butter by selling high end hardware. its safe to say they will be ahead of china for a long long time.

Indians like to hype Rafale as they have no choice but to spend billions purchasing what is a 4th generation aircraft due to the fact that they are incapable if producing their own

We chose it out of a selection of the best fighters in the world. i am guessing its pretty damn good.
By the way, we have been producing top notch 4th generation aircraft for a while. its called Su 30MKI

 

[S-DUCT]

So Dassault maybe has more experience - what does that mean anyway?

Experience is not everything.

China manufactures J-10 currently while Dassault used Mirage-2000 as a base to start on Rafale.

At the end of day, is Mirage-2000 a much better aircraft than J-10? I have not heard of anyone credible saying so.

So what?
J-10 designed is based on IAI lavi ,its more probable that French would have more info about maneuverability,radar-signatures of J-10 than chinese knowing the same of Rafale.
"Mirage-2000 as a base to start Rafale"

Rafale is still only 4th generation tech, it may be one of the best, but the Chinese are already working on 5th generation. The J-20/J-31 may not be as good as F-22 but they will blow Rafale out of the sky easily.[QUOTE India better pray that the Russians somehow turn the PAK-FA into a true stealth platform otherwise J-20s and J-31s will also be eating that for breakfast as well.

Really?
I don't know why many forum members believe that only below specifications are must for VLO platform
1)Smooth belly.
2)serpentine intake.
3)Mighty black coating.

Let's just burst bubbles one by one
2)YF-23 used radar blocker to hide radar signature of compressor blades

1)No flat belly

In fact PAK-FA's avg RCS .5m^2 where as F-22's avg RCS is .3-.4m^2.

Indians like to hype Rafale as they have no choice but to spend billions purchasing what is a 4th generation aircraft due to the fact that they are incapable if producing their own

Partially true.
Why don't you say the same to chinese J-10/15/16.. as they all have Russians engines.
If 2nd largest country in terms GDP is incapable of mass-production of turbofan engines then its is a quite achievement for country of 1.8tril GDP to achieve such success in LCA program

 

[UKBengali]

What I meant by using the Mirage-200 as a base to start on the Rafale was that was the best technology that France had in contrast to China having to use the J-10 technology for the J-20 as their base. This was to illustrate the point that experience was not everything when it came to technological levels.

@S-DUCT "Really?
I don't know why many forum members believe that only below specifications are must for VLO platform
1)Smooth belly.
2)serpentine intake.
3)Mighty black coating."

Russia has already stated that VLO stealth was not a criteria for the PAK-FA. Both the J-20 and J-31 are VLO aircraft.
Unless the design of the PAK-FA changes it would have the disadvantage of facing multiple BVR missile shots before it could fire back at other 5th generation fighters.

"Partially true.
Why don't you say the same to chinese J-10/15/16.. as they all have Russians engines.
If 2nd largest country in terms GDP is incapable of mass-production of turbofan engines then its is a quite achievement for country of 1.8tril GDP to achieve such success in LCA program"

WS-10A has been in mass production since 2010. As it is not fully mature it would be risky to use for prototype aircraft but this should change over the next few years. There is no magic when it comes to engine technology and it just takes a lot of resources and time to get right. China is spending many billions on trying to fix this issue and I am sure that this will pay dividends soon.

I never ever stated that the LCA was a total failure. Indian succeeded in the composite airframe and the fly-by-wire technology. The radar was a partial success and the reason for the failure of the engine was that India was trying to create a state of the art engine with very little knowledge base to start off with.

 

[Lure]

Why Indians are so sceptical about Chinese development. If China wants to be a world power, it must have good relations with India. That's the fact. China doesn't arm itself against India, it arms itself to counterbalance United States. For all those years US jets were owning the skies and US ships were the "leaders" of the sea. It's still the same. But no one in the damn asia didn't care about that. Why aren't we sceptical about US dominance? Are we raised by not asking this question in "democracies" and "freedoms" that we enjoy?

Hey people! Please wake up for just for one second. This world is not an equal world and suddenly China becomes a dominant force. This world is a unipolar world and China challanges that single polar. Therefore either be sceptical about any major force that unbalances the world, or don't be sceptical about any of them.

Indians, like China, had a long history of colonization by the west. It would be better to see two victims cooperating not to be weak again. Not two victims fighting eachother.

 

[S-DUCT]

@UKBengali:

Russia has already stated that VLO stealth was not a criteria for the PAK-FA. Both the J-20 and J-31 are VLO aircraft.

Russians only stated that PAK-FA has a good trade-off between stealth and maneuverability.From my previous reply you would have seen that even PAK-FA incorporates some design elements of YF-23 and it will be a potent VLO platform.

Unless the design of the PAK-FA changes it would have the disadvantage of facing multiple BVR missile shots before it could fire back at other 5th generation fighters.

"The F-22 may get ‘first look’ with the APG-77, the Advanced Infra Red Search and Track (AIRST) sensor having been deleted to save money, but the PAK-FA may get ‘first look’ using its advanced infrared sensor.The outcome will be difficult to predict as it will depend a lot on the combat skills of the pilots and the capabilities of the missiles for end-game kills. There is no guarantee that the F-22 will prevail every time" Carlo Kopp.

WS-10A has been in mass production since 2010. As it is not fully mature it would be risky to use for prototype aircraft but this should change over the next few years. There is no magic when it comes to engine technology and it just takes a lot of resources and time to get right. China is spending many billions on trying to fix this issue and I am sure that this will pay dividends soon.

I never ever stated that the LCA was a total failure. Indian succeeded in the composite airframe and the fly-by-wire technology. The radar was a partial success and the reason for the failure of the engine was that India was trying to create a state of the art engine with very little knowledge base to start off with.

Mate,you know that every nations has to start such projects at some stage,just like BD is building warships on her own ,there would be a time when your nation can build Aircraft carrier.Chinese started their aviations programmes much ahead of us and reason of that they are Ahead of india in almost every fields.

Though you are one most rationale BD member,many other members recite how kaveri project was unsuccessful but when it comes in the case of china failure they would never say such thing.