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India cannot defeat Pakistan militarily

Laughing my azz so you hiding your azz within us.. This is really simple broski lose the flag for a starter and then seek ways to make it to India I am sure there are riches there and not the worlds largest poverty.. India has more poverty then the whole world combined..

Try your luck over there..

800px-2012_Poverty_distribution_map_in_India_by_its_states_and_union_territories.svg.png


If you refuse to change your flag the mods should intervene and do it for you..

@waz

People assuming India is rich is commiting a major intellectual fallacy
 
The Chinese are mentioned in every single Pakistani post as a force that will always be strong, will grow stronger, and will go into the future with a resolute political leadership, a strong and well-armed military that is motivated and ready for losses in battle, and a citizenry loyal to the leadership in spite of the horrible mistakes that have been made and that have badly hurt the Chinese man in the street in recent years. Above all, a citizenry that can provide the cannon fodder to fight debilitating wars with determined enemies.

Perhaps a hard, clinical review of these suppositions is overdue.

None of the assumptions hold true any longer, going forward. Not one.
China hadn’t come in front until 2018. Expecting Chinese boots on the ground to help Pakistan in a war against India is not on the cards, but India had been raising formations specifically to stand against China therefore 100% of Indian army cannot be committed against Pakistan army in the event of war. Would indian army move units from its Leh based Corps against Pakistan if there is a threat of escalation on LOC is debatable. In Kargil war Indian army moved some units from there, now maybe not. The two front war for India is also discussed since 2018. I didn’t follow that much as i concentrated more on COIN war inside Pakistan rather than a conventional war scenario.
 
Lol.. This is like trying to put a camel thru a needle. You don't believe in this farce that you are writting man..

You will be forced to handover Delhi before anyone hands over GB and AK to you.. You can dream as much as you like.. You either surrender to me or there is nothing inbetween
Yeh lo bhaisaab, Chalo Delhi dey dengey lekin Delhi mei aap ke liye Qutub Minaar bhi hai usey pehle lena padega. Hai dum?

On believing part - We are non believer btw. We do what need to be done.
Last week ek bhikhari ne mujhe pakad liya tha rastey mein and he had very similar thought like you. He was threatening me to surrender all that I have. Usey khub koota maine. Since then he sits in the chowk and begs very politely.

Bhaisaab kuch paaney keliye kuch karna padta hai. Agar Free mein sab hota tou aaj tum Doodh aur Shehad ke darya me n@nga gota maarte, Lahore ke naaliyon meise Dollar collect karte aur Delhi mein Qutub Minaar ke upar Tashrif daalke chillate rehte.
 
A very thought provoking post indeed but , did India really have such capability?

I don't just mean militarily, as I really doubt we at all these four times had such capability. I for sure remember we weren't strong economically.

Further we were and are heavily dependent on Arms import, and no one knows what things came into play in each year of these wars.

I also think of a really strange phenomenon out here, as I feel its very important. Something no one speaks about much, as it has direct relation to why India might have not chosen to 'annihilate' Pakistan if we use the Author's words.

This holds very much for the North Indians more than us Southies, as lot of them have a strange romantic view of Pakistan as erstwhile Indian territory. It's intangible so to speak, and this is what fuels that 'Aman ki Aasha' talk as well whenever things cool down. One can't forget that IA has heavy Punjabi and North Indian presence, and many of them moved over from Pakistan.

If we see old interviews one can see this crap a lot, and psychology is a very powerful thing. I am sure the rest can be figured out by the intelligent, as to why this is important.
It’s not the capability that’s the problem, it’s the mindset. Expecting Rommels or Pattons in leadership of both armies is not really a good idea. Maybe one or two generals shine from each side out of 20 who will be directly involved in combat in during war.

Capability is having 270 SU30 for all kinds of missions but M2K go for strike while Bison scrambled for CAP. So forget capability.

In 1965 war, only one S&T battalion in Pakistan Army was equipped with full strength of personnel and trucks, Pakistan Army kept taking risks of operations against a bigger Indian Army knowing the logistical support cannot be met. Forget capability here also.

Ravi Rikhye has his own views about failures of India in reducing Pakistan to nothing at every chance it got but it’s a fact that both Armies are excellent at defending but a lot is desired when they go on the offensive.

This is what army and it's machinery made to believe . There are many countries that does not have military or just nominal military and still they are prospering ..ex: Switzerland

Pakistan is security state..even if Kashmir issue is resolved, they open another issue to keep the military relevant and above the country !
Military stays relevant as long as RAW keeps its budgets intact to dissect Pakistan from all sides. Conventional war comes after that since nukes get involved in that.

You wouldn’t be having Yadav roaming around making terrorist teams inside Pakistan otherwise.
 
On believing part - We are non believer btw.

Boo hoo come high or come low you will be subdued, conquered and defeated. Bruised and effectly subdued and you will surrender aka made into surrender after a good beating
 
People assuming India is rich is commiting a major intellectual fallacy

I second this and it has become a cliche people just don't realize how poverty is a pandemic in India and will take 100 years for them to exit it
 
The one place militarily where India truly dwarfs Pk capability is the navy.

Huge coastline, + an increasingly assertive China, even in the seas, has forced the Indian strategic calculus to go that way.

Some say that a Rafale follow up order will very likely be placed, and might be in the middle of negotiations. 36 more, then another 36.
RAWs budget Vs ISI.

That’s another place.
 
It’s not the capability that’s the problem, it’s the mindset. Expecting Rommels or Pattons in leadership of both armies is not really a good idea. Maybe one or two generals shine from each side out of 20 who will be directly involved in combat in during war.

Capability is having 270 SU30 for all kinds of missions but M2K go for strike while Bison scrambled for CAP. So forget capability.

In 1965 war, only one S&T battalion in Pakistan Army was equipped with full strength of personnel and trucks, Pakistan Army kept taking risks of operations against a bigger Indian Army knowing the logistical support cannot be met. Forget capability here also.

Ravi Rikhye has his own views about failures of India in reducing Pakistan to nothing at every chance it got but it’s a fact that both Armies are excellent at defending but a lot is desired when they go on the offensive.


Military stays relevant as long as RAW keeps its budgets intact to dissect Pakistan from all sides. Conventional war comes after that since nukes get involved in that.

You wouldn’t be having Yadav roaming around making terrorist teams inside Pakistan otherwise.
I hundred percent agree with you, it's always the mindset. Which is why I mentioned the psychology factor, as I feel its that nostalgia and romance with Lahore or whatever city they came from.. that kept them from ever thinking of annihilating as the Author thinks they should have. Personally for me, this annihilation seems over the top. I don't think neither side has the needed capacity but I may be wrong.

Operational deficiencies of our side must be there, as no one can be hundred percent perfect. That however I will leave to better learned ones here on matters of defense.

Not withstanding the Author's views, do you think we in the subcontinent having come from outside rule can build super professional institutions quickly? Institution building is a painful process, and takes generations to yield results. Particularly in corruption and favoritism ridden system based countries such as we got in our region.
 
Boo hoo come high or come low you will be subdued, conquered and defeated. Bruised and effectly subdued and you will surrender aka made into surrender after a good beating
Bus awvi? Aise hi hawabazi se nahi hota koi surrender uskeliye (I'm telling again) kuch karna padega. Ok, can you give me a timeline by when you want us to surrender by making hawabazi?
Hawabazi aur haramkhori karte huye 75 saal nikaal diye aur purey mulk tabah kar diye, aur kitna time logey chicha.

"Boo hoo" karte hue uchalne sei koi fayda nahi hota. Jo karna chahiye woh tou tumse hota nahi. Tum bilieve karte raho as a fulltime believer, we will keep doing what needs to be done.
 
If there was no military there would be no country in the first place.
Who can put Pakistan and Pakistanis straight ?
No one.

When Army intervenes, it gets the blame, how can Army ruin a system which is already crooked. Was it ever like Pakistan had hardworking and honest “angels” sitting in every department but Army took over and all the angels fled and somehow the country went into shambles lol.

Just find something to blame, previously it was politicians, then corruption, and now it’s military so blame the generals.

Pakistanis need someone to blame as a sense of relief that they have found the problem lol so now sit back, relax, blame and go to sleep. Repeat next day and keep repeating for the rest of the life.

A few years later Pakistanis will be blaming someone or something else, because corruption was born with Pakistanis (not Pakistan ) and without corruption the Pakistani system fails whether military plays a part or not.

It’s like the world blamed RothChilds and Rockefeller, did they stop Elon Musk or Bill Gates or Mark Zickerburg or Jack Ma etc. so Pakistanis will blame one entity or another, but where are Pakistanis in the top list ? Nowhere. It’s a Pakistani thing to sit and do bak-bak against the system created by Pakistanis themselves.

As an example, talk of inflation and then see how to find parking on MM Alam road during day for shopping and during nights for restaurants. These are not generals of military shopping or eating there. Oh but those civilians are rich coz somehow they benefitted from military rule or through corruption somehow from military. Sure ! That’s a Pakistani thing again. They could have said no, but Pakistanis are corrupt to the core.

not sure if they even make that public here, probably part of the defence budget ?
Intel agencies budget is sometimes not related to military annual budget but the ops it has to conduct.
 
China hadn’t come in front until 2018. Expecting Chinese boots on the ground to help Pakistan in a war against India is not on the cards, but India had been raising formations specifically to stand against China therefore 100% of Indian army cannot be committed against Pakistan army in the event of war. Would indian army move units from its Leh based Corps against Pakistan if there is a threat of escalation on LOC is debatable. In Kargil war Indian army moved some units from there, now maybe not. The two front war for India is also discussed since 2018. I didn’t follow that much as i concentrated more on COIN war inside Pakistan rather than a conventional war scenario.
There is far, far more concern about China's actions on the LAC, than about anything at all from Pakistan, excepting during times like the recent Poonch deaths of four jawans.

Some of the tension surrounding the China question is due to the government's lies about the real situation, where they allowed the PLA to slice away a little bit of territory at a time until a significant amount of area had been lost. The Army realised too late that it was on its own, and took independent action late in the day; some small recovery was the result, led by a night movement on a strategic point right on the boundary between opposed formations. As usual, the government claimed all the credit, while simultaneously untruthfully denying any change in the situation.

Quite clearly, the PLA were acting on explicit instructions from their political masters to achieve certain goals. Every action they took and actions that they are still taking are clearly planned. So, the riot without gunfire that took place between two mobs of soldiers that took 20 Indian lives, including a battalion commander, and an undisclosed number of Chinese lives, probably not more than half of that, is being countered with increasing wariness and readiness to contest all points, while still avoiding gunfire. At Doklam, after the withdrawal, the PLA has been building infrastructure at a very high speed, and on their side of the boundary, they have built a road network, and buildings for residence and shelter from bad weather. In addition, their actions have led to the Bhutanese seeking a direct settlement of boundary lines, contrary to their treaty obligations. India is unlikely to oppose this, as it will put a certain stretch of border out of dispute, and allow concentration on the rest.

This much is clear, the earlier split of 23 Indian divisions on the western frontier and 8 on the northern frontiers is no longer tenable. It seems that if there had been no restraints, the Indian Army would have left the formations on the west undisturbed, and would have liked to increase the forces on the northern frontier, the LAC, to several times the present 8 divisions +. This would imply a desired strength of around 39 to 40 divisions, much lighter on armour, and mechanisation, but well equipped with artillery and helicopters.

It is unlikely that the conservative present leadership of the Army will disturb the forces on the northern frontier to divert any forces to the west. All the more so given the total suspicion of PLA intentions. So on the west, it will continue to be (if I recall correctly) 25 PA divisions facing 23 IA divisions.

The point is that conversely, Pakistan may be wrong to expect active support from the PLA, other than the expected raising troop strength in the frontier regions to put additional mental pressure on the IA commands. So these stories being tossed around suggesting PLA support are unreal.

It’s not the capability that’s the problem, it’s the mindset. Expecting Rommels or Pattons in leadership of both armies is not really a good idea. Maybe one or two generals shine from each side out of 20 who will be directly involved in combat in during war.
So far, from whatever I have read, on the Indian side, there has been only one Corps commander of any merit, Sagat Singh. I would not like to express any opinion on the Pakistani side, not with you and PanzerKiel members of this forum.
 
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Both of whom are very respectable armchair generals lol
PanzerKiel is not of general rank, but has always given us sound opinions and (whenever possible, within the bounds of discretion and confidentiality) good information and guidance.

Signalian, too, has been sounder than the fanboys who buzz around. He comes off very well indeed, compared to, say, three large bottle-green buzzing objects circling @brational.
 
When Army intervenes, it gets the blame, how can Army ruin a system which is already crooked. Was it ever like Pakistan had hardworking and honest “angels” sitting in every department but Army took over and all the angels fled and somehow the country went into shambles lol.
Militay intervation is always objective oriented. Military ojective is basically defined in the simplest form such that it is clearly understood by everyone in the mil Hierarchy. So at unit's objective for example can be to eleminate terrorists with no civilian casualty. If that happened, objective is achieved.

When military intervention happens in political affairs lets say Army taking over the national affairs (though we have not experinced it in India) the objective can't be defined in simple form. It require a hell lot of planning, back up, follow up, excercises and improvising on the go is unimaginable to keep up with the objective. So all takeover took toll on civil structure because military must have punished the dissidents and rewarded the supporters so as to meet the objective.

Worst part is Military takeover became an option in Pakistan and the Jernails had to do what they did. Jia ul Haqse Islamised the population and politics to achieve the military objective because as a Military man his prime focus was to achieve his objective belittling the Civilian and political structure by overriding them imposing political islam but undermined islam when he found islam clashing with objective. So all Gernail followed this doctrine and played with it. Now the whole Pakistan have learnt this art. They dont see uighur muslims while dealing with China but consider Pakistan as the Leader of Muslims.

This damage is irreversible and not possible to correct within next 25 years unless the Citizens as a whole renounce the political islam and Army's intervention in Politics. So any attempt to correct this will result in loss of lives that no one will dare to step into it.

Tough time ahead for Pakistanis. They need India to not let that happen. Hence Hindu ganda hai Saazish karta hai & hum dushman ke bachho ko padhayengey aur khud nahi padhengey, Hume Delhi mein Qutum Minaar pe tashrif rakhna hai narratives born.

Aaj bahut ho gaya. Kal milengey bye...
 

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