India can do nothing if there is another Mumbai

[R.A.W.]

tsk tsk tsk...
My advice for u please stop reading Bharat Verma, sorry to say but u have some serious Kiddo plans like him, U can't clap with one hand

We dont want to clap with one hand but the hand in Pakistan is not responding....... They claim that they can not do anything about it. They are helpless....

 

[Kasrkin]

If India stikes then this would be considered as action against non state actors rather then the attacks against people of Pakistan nor government of Pakistan because of their incompetence.

Pakistan retaliation would be considered as aggression towards people of India sending Pakistan into further isolation.

STOP daydreaming. It would be an intentional infringement of our sovereignty by the government of India as opposed to a crime committed by transnational terrorists within our borders. If the Pakistan Air Force is to shoot down your jets loaded with bombs coming to bomb our cities and villages, do you REALLY think the international community will say ‘Pakistan’s aggression’? A symptom of too much exposure to the Indian media I reckon.

 

[Srinivas]

i completely disagree with this article , this guy is finding excuses for exporting the so called "non state actors" to India while the peace talks are going .
i feel as a responsible state Pakistan should not fall into extremist hands .Instead of giving strength and courage to the nation and its armed forces he is finding logic in gain ,that to even in failure .

 

[jai_shri_Ram]

i think we should help of pakistan to erase out of tererrist from pakistan land
because pakistan army is incapable to do that..
what u ppl thik?

 

[Spring Onion]

At the end of the day Indians do not want any territory of Pakistan but we have to strike within Pakistan if government of Pakistan fails to control its puppets. But one thing should be kept in mind that the civilian damage should be minimum.... this would be war against these non state actors nor with the people or government of Pakistan

can India do that ? If yes and if India goes for any attack withing Pakistan what will be its implications.

1. It will unite entire Pakistan, State and non-state actors, Taliban, Islamists, liberals, common man in the streets, alot of backing for the country's forces. So bring it on

2. More hostilities for Indian Muslims from own Indian Hindu majority, Again good for Pakistan.

3. More self-formation of aggressive groups who will not only work against India on their own as well as with some support from every corner, But these aggressive groups will also Harm US interests.

4. If US interests are harmed and more insecurity fro US citizens formed, US wont take it with a smile.

5. Day dreaming on such a big and important scale is tooooooo harmful for Indians so lay off dear.

 

[Goodperson]

STOP daydreaming. It would be an intentional infringement of our sovereignty by the government of India as opposed to crime committed by transnational terrorists. If the Pakistan Air Force is to shoot down your jets loaded with bombs coming to bomb our cities and villages, do you REALLY think the international community will say ‘Pakistan’s aggression’? A symptom of too much exposure to the Indian media I reckon.

The article is day dreaming it by default assumes India is not prepared. India may not be prepared to counter attack against the terrorists who sneaked-in but its military can attack known targets in its source which is very much visible.

its true we are day dreaming here about the attack and the response and counter nuclear attacks ......

 

[DaRk WaVe]

For Bringiing in Kashmir i was replying to this & u just went for it

May be this is the new tool by Pakistan to get the Kashmir into picture once again. If Pakistan thinks that they can blackmail India to solve Kashmir issue else the attacks will continue then I think they are misinformed.

The case of Samjhota express is within India not in Pakistan and if you are following the proceedings you will get to know what we are doing about it. It was Indians who conviceted purohit not Pakistan. We found the evidence about killing of Pakistanis within Indians involved.
As I said just saying does not mean anything till you present concrete evidence. You said that you have given evidence about Indian involvement and then turned back saying no such dossier is given to India.

As i said trials are not gods words that you have a revelation in day. There is a trail which is followed. The proof is enough as accepted by the world apart from people and government of Pakistan which continues to be in denial mode protecting these people for agression in India.

who said Kashmir is not an issue. But it has nothing to do with Mumbai. If you justify Mumbai with Kashmir then you are a psychopath.

Do U know even Samjhota Express within in Hours was Blamed on who? Tell me this was also 'course of investigation'
and for 26/11, Do u know in first Dossier there were some serious Flaws e.g. they mentioned that Kasab used 9mm pistol but the picture given of that pistol was not a 9mm it was a Russian TT( if u want all those extremely stupid things in that Dossier then tell me i can post all of them) My point is this flaw plus shifting the master mind title from Lakhvi to Hafiz Saeed is not 'course of investigation' its the irresponsible behavior from Indians & recently another Claim by Indian PM about 'attacks are to be carried out' & then statement of your beloved Chidu & dont forget the Stance in Sharm Al Sheikh these are a enough to prove how irresponsible Indian leadership is, Indians need to decide what to do & what not to do...
& one more thing If u think that there will be a bullet fired from Indian side & ppl of Pak will consider it an 'action against non state actors' then ur absolutely wrong, here is the Bharat Verma attitude, u need to think after reading him & Indian defence review....
There is a way out i.e. Talks but here again "we cant clap with one hand"
Ohh yes Don't forget Mukherjee

 

[R.A.W.]

STOP daydreaming. It would be an intentional infringement of our sovereignty by the government of India as opposed to a crime committed by transnational terrorists within our borders. If the Pakistan Air Force is to shoot down your jets loaded with bombs coming to bomb our cities and villages, do you REALLY think the international community will say ‘Pakistan’s aggression’? A symptom of too much exposure to the Indian media I reckon.

No one is saying to bomb the civilian assets of Pakistan. We have already asked Pakistan to maintain it sovereignty and manage itself as a responsible nation. But government of Pakistan comes up with a doll drum of that they cannot do anything about it. We want peace with pakistan but not with the cost of our own people. Defenitely you have right to defend your nation so why to escalate it to war. Just remove these insurgents..... No one wants to shoot down Pakistan villages and cities but we do have problem with these camps in ...you know where.

 

[Kasrkin]

ISI and agencies have already shown their incompetence when they are not able to control attacks in India originating from Pakistan.

As a matter of fact if they themselves are not involved then stop protecting them. If ISI thinks that they should be removed then I think they should not stop Indians from doing so if they are incompetent and not capable enough to stop them keeping in check. India is not going to suffer because of uselessness of your government and your agencies.

At one end you say we want peace at another end you say we are incompetent against these agents and then you say you will also not do anything about it. And then say lets talk Kashmir and peace.

Mr. Cloughley's article address such idiotism fairly well:

Harpooning harmony —Brian Cloughley

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

India and Pakistan are stumbling, and it would be wise for other nations to stand back and refrain from raising matters that could exacerbate suspicion. But a recent report in the New York Times demonstrates that malignant external influences exist

This is a period of great sensitivity concerning relations between India and Pakistan. Since the fall of President Musharraf, and especially since the Mumbai atrocities last year, there has been increasing reluctance on the part of India to re-engage in dialogue. To an extent this is understandable, given the circumstances of the Mumbai attack, although it must be clear that Islamabad was neither originator nor executive in that undertaking.

But India’s prime minister, the urbane and usually sensible Dr Manmohan Singh, has all but accused the government of Pakistan of complicity in terrorism, by declaring that “There is enough evidence to show that, given the sophistication and military precision of the attack, it must have had the support of some official agencies in Pakistan.”

This is a serious accusation, but it doesn’t stand up. After all, the 2001 suicide aircraft attacks in the US and the 2005 suicide bombings in London were sophisticated and precise, but it does not follow that they had “support of official agencies.” The phrase “must have” is not evidential – but it is provocative and has helped set back progress towards rapprochement.

And then India’s home minister, Mr Chidambaram, an admirable and clever man, told NDTV that “India has never ruled out the involvement of state actors in Pakistan in the [Mumbai] carnage despite Islamabad’s contention to the contrary,” which has swung the door of reason nearer to closing. What could have caused this uncharacteristic outburst is not known, but he must have realised that his words would have enormously detrimental effects on approaches to dialogue.

Why pour fuel on flickering flames? Surely this is a time for quiet reflection in Delhi and Islamabad? There should be constructive efforts to restart discussions and build, gently, bit by bit, on a very shaky foundation. But it seems that New Delhi is determined to maintain pressure.

Then there is the much-trotted-out exhortation that Pakistan should “do more” in the fight against terrorism. Aren’t you becoming just a little irritated by this continuing command? Is it credible that a country beset with vicious terrorists who have recently tried, among other things, to assassinate a government minister, would drag its feet in combating terrorism? There have been some 30 terrorist incidents in Pakistan so far this year, and it is in the best interests of the country that every effort be made to reduce the toll of death by terrorism.

There’s no point in claiming that there are certain circumstances in which terrorism is “justifiable” as well as “effective”, as the British foreign minister, the moronic Miliband, did in a recent interview on BBC Radio.

All terrorists are criminal scum. There is no moral difference between a barbarian of the Lashkar-e Tayba who explodes a bomb in Srinagar in Indian-administered Kashmir, and a Taliban fanatic who does the same thing in Kabul or Islamabad.

But no country in the world can eradicate terrorists. There would be few things more agreeable than having the lot of them brought to justice, but that simply is not possible. India’s refusal to accept that Islamabad is fighting against terrorism is hard to swallow, given that there is trial process regarding five people arrested (so far) for their alleged involvement in the Mumbai attacks, including the LeT’s Zakiur Rehman Lakhvi.

India’s external affairs minister, Mr SM Krishna, said that India believes “it is in our vital interest to engage and normalise our relations with Pakistan. At the same time we are very clear that any meaningful dialogue with Pakistan can only be based on fulfilment of its commitment, in letter and spirit, not to allow its territory to be used in any manner for terrorist activities against India.”

But it can’t be done. If it could, France would have totally eliminated Spanish ETA terrorists on its soil, for example. And we have to remember that the Jemaah Islamiah (JI), a terrorist organisation in East Asia, in the words of The Economist, “cross-pollinates jihadists from Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia and the Philippines.” These countries are anxious (to put it mildly) to eradicate the terrorist threat against them, but even Singapore, probably the most tightly-controlled “democratic” society in the world, has difficulty in eradicating fanatics.

Then in South America, according to the Jamestown Foundation, “international terrorist presence…is concentrated in several hotspots where terrorist organisations have found financial and logistic support, as well as a supporting base.” The so-called Tri-Border Area between Brazil, Argentine and Paraguay “has served in the past twenty years as an operational and logistic centre for international terrorist groups, such as the Lebanese Hezbollah, as well as transnational criminal organisations.”

If it were possible for these countries, in the words of India’s foreign minister “not to allow [their] territory to be used in any manner for terrorist activities,” they would assuredly put a stop to such activity. But they can’t.

Which makes India’s demands look a trifle unrealistic.

The vexation in India concerning the Mumbai attacks is reasonable. Most educated Indians are furious that terrorists from Pakistan were able to create such havoc. The reverse would indubitably apply. But this shouldn’t bar the countries from talking about improving relations and solving mutual problems.

So things are not good. The countries are stumbling, and it would be wise for other nations to stand back and refrain from raising matters that could exacerbate suspicion. But a recent report in the New York Times demonstrates that malignant external influences exist.

The paper carried a complete non-story concerning Pakistan’s alleged modification of US-supplied Harpoon missiles, quoted quoting “senior US administration and Congressional officials” as saying that “the modified version of these missiles could strike land targets and pose a potential threat to India.”

The tale is nonsense, but the question arises as to why, at this particular time, when relations between India and Pakistan are so sensitive, US officials decided to make public such an obviously disruptive story.

There is little enough harmony, in all conscience, but such that exists can do without American Harpoons.

 

[Spring Onion]

We dont want to clap with one hand but the hand in Pakistan is not responding....... They claim that they can not do anything about it. They are helpless....

Your Prime Minister Manmohan Singh shot from his hip by saying INDIA has credible information about second Mumbai style attack. Pakistan took his statement very seriously and asked for sharing information but surprise surprise MM Singh was realy shooting from the hip because your other officials came to his resecue by saying there no such thing in sight.


Again today Pakistani interior Minister says that "If India had shared the information with Pakistan provided by Indian Citizen (who is also involved in Mumbai attack) Fahim Ansari, Mumbai attacks could not have taken place".

Again Pakistan has asked India to share information about this new romour of new Mumbai style attacks, if India does not share information then she will be responsible herself not us.

 

[Kasrkin]

No one is saying to bomb the civilian assets of Pakistan. We have already asked Pakistan to maintain it sovereignty and manage itself as a responsible nation.

As if you can tell them apart from the civilians any better than we can, and we can barely do it ourselves. Also, if Pakistan's sovereignty has been undermined by terrorists, does that mean India can do it too? No, we’ll treat you the same then. Furthermore with that logic India has lost its sovereignty on a regular basis with terrorist attacks having originated from within India being a relatively common happening. Should the US attack India as well with that 'logic' saying that its our God given responsibility to destroy the sovereignty of those who can’t protect their own?

 

[R.A.W.]

can India do that ? If yes and if India goes for any attack withing Pakistan what will be its implications.

1. It will unite entire Pakistan, State and non-state actors, Taliban, Islamists, liberals, common man in the streets, alot of backing for the country's forces. So bring it on

Indians are 1 billion in strength and very much united when it comes to Pakistan. Remember 10 million people gathering after Mumbai attacks in Mumbai against Pakistan and these non state actors..

2. More hostilities for Indian Muslims from own Indian Hindu majority, Again good for Pakistan.

Indian muslims were not targeted after 26/11 in fact they burned the flags of Pakistan within India. Also they denied to bury the dead bodies within India. So any such fancy would further shatter your dream of Indian muslim divide within India. In fact it is really good for us when you believe that indian hindus and muslims are divided right now....

3. More self-formation of aggressive groups who will not only work against India on their own as well as with some support from every corner, But these aggressive groups will also Harm US interests.

Remember US statements after 26/11 if you wanna cross check what they actually meant.

4. If US interests are harmed and more insecurity fro US citizens formed, US wont take it with a smile.

Yups good for us to build international pressure on Pakistan

5. Day dreaming on such a big and important scale is tooooooo harmful for Indians so lay off dear.

Good for Pakistan for to not dream about any Mumbai like adventure again.

 

[King Julien]

India can do nothing if there is another Mumbai ?
Can Pakistan afford to lend its soil to non state actors to stage another 26/11?

we've seen Pakistani attitude with hafiz saeed, even when UN bans JuD, instead of interrogating saeed on the basis of dossier provided by India, all Pakistan does is to paint saeed as national hero for his charity work.. 10 months have passed still no solid action taken from GoP to ensure justice is provided and no further attack is launched on India from Pakistani soil.. this really shows Pakistan's attitude.. An average Indian has lost patience in this bloodshed, believe me this time India will opt for military misadventure... unfortunate

 

[R.A.W.]

As if you can tell them apart from the civilians any better than we can, and we can barely do it ourselves. Also, if Pakistan's sovereignty has been undermined by terrorists, does that mean India can do it too? No, we’ll treat you the same then. Furthermore with that logic India has lost its sovereignty on a regular basis with terrorist attacks having originated from within India being a relatively common happening. Should the US attack India as well with that 'logic' saying that its our God given responsibility to destroy the sovereignty of those who can’t protect their own?

Did India not asked Pakistan to take care of these assets in Pakistan?
Pakistan and Musharaff has already accepted with the presence of these assets and every Indian welcomes it....

But what is the reluctance in dismantling them. If they are continuously causing trouble in Indian we dont have much choice.

And doing tit for tat will not yeild results by Indians doing the same in Pakistan.

See as far as protection is concerned we are already arresting so many from LeT within india with latest before the Independence day. There are reports of increase in insurgency, no agency in the world can be 100%. But when we know the mother of these kids why not to finish her off before she gives birth to more.

Once for an all.... Enough is enough within India. Indian citizens are fed up of these Pakistan based terrorists. If it comes at the expense of war with GOP being protectionist for them I think the general sentiments of Indians are LET IT BE....

 

[praveen]

'What can India do if there's another 26/11? Nothing!'​

Najam Sethi, editor-in-chief of Pakistan's Daily Times and Friday Times newspapers and one of that country's most influential journalists, has said that even if there is another Mumbai-type terrorist attack that emanates from his soil, there is absolutely nothing India can do, and warned that if India launches a military strike, there would be all-out war that would de-stabilise the entire region and have an adverse impact on India's quest to be a global power.

In an interaction with leading think-tanks and scholars, who focus on the subcontinent, and heads of South Asia programmes hosted by the Asia Programme of the Woodrow Wilson International Centre for Scholars, Sethi said there was no guarantee that there could not be another Mumbai [ Images ] "because many of these former non-State actors, which became State actors, are now back to their non-State actor role -- some of them fairly autonomous."

Arguing that India's demand that the composite dialogue cannot be resumed unless and until there is a crackdown on some of these elements as 'unreasonable', he said: "It took 30 years to make these non-State actors effective and they are not going to be disbanded and demilitarised overnight. It will take a long time. And it will take a transition period in which Indo-Pakistan relations have to get into conflict-resolution mode."

Sethi, whose reporting has frequently put him at odds with successive governments as well as with extremist religious and militant groups, and who was recently awarded the 2009 Golden Pen of Freedom -- the annual freedom prize of the World Association of Newspapers -- said: "The tragedy is that while we prepared to accept India's position before the election, it is very inexplicable why India is persisting with this position right now."

"It is hurtful to the cause of democracy in Pakistan, it is hurtful to the cause of Indo-Pak relations, it is hurtful to the cause of finding solutions in Afghanistan because India and Pakistan are fighting their proxy wars all over the place and because India already has a huge footprint in North Afghanistan and the Indian consulates are doing their bit there," he said.

Sethi said, "Therefore, this is something that India and Pakistan have to come to grips with and America has to weigh in discreetly if necessary to get a dialogue moving again and to get some conflict resolution done."

"The Indian and Pakistani proxy wars are spoiling the terrain completely," he reiterated, "and there is a mindset in Pakistan, especially in the Pakistan Army [ Images ] that finds this unacceptable."

He said consequently, "When we say we want the composite dialogue with India to continue -- to get on with and want the back-channel activated -- we don't want any conditions put on the composite dialogue."

Sethi said, "We find it inexplicable that a Congress government that is flushed with victory, still finds it difficult to get on with it, still is having to defend its commitments made in Sharm-el-Sheikh and that the Indian media is not part of the solution, it is still part of the problem just as the Pakistani media was part of the problem some time ago. Indian nationalism is still coming in the way."

He asserted, "If America wants Pakistan to cooperate and find solutions within Pakistan on terrorism, on domestic violence, on the economy, then we need peace on our borders. We can't have peace on our borders if the first thought that comes to India is, if there is another Mumbai."

"If there's another Mumbai, what then," he asked and said, there is no way India can launch military strikes.

"What could they do? The nuclear deterrent is alive and kicking, it's in place."

Sethi said, "Therefore, if another Mumbai happens, what does India do? Nothing. India can't do anything."

"If India does something, we are in very deep trouble. Therefore, we have to find a solution that makes that (another) Mumbai doesn't happen, and if it does -- because there's lots of non-state actors are there who are not listening to the Pakistani military and even less so to the Pakistani opposition and Pakistani government, what if another Mumbai happens? What will India do -- will this dialogue be derailed forever? Will the terrorists succeed in driving that wedge? Will the terrorists stop the road from Delhi [ Images ] to Islamabad [ Images ] and the road from Islamabad to Kabul?"

Sethi said, "It is in India's interest to build peace with Pakistan, because if India doesn't build peace with Pakistan, then we will fall into the Mumbai trap. Then India would have to take action, there will be war."

"If there is war, the war on terror will get lost and the terrorists will become part of Pakistan's arsenal against India," he warned.

Sethi recalled, "We saw a glimpse of that when Mumbai happened. The first thing the Taliban [ Images ] did was that they said we are going to stop fighting the Pakistani army and we are going to come to the border and fight with the Pakistani army against India in the event of an Indian strike."

"That is the danger of India not defining its interests in a particular way," he said.

Sethi argued that "if there is a war between India and Pakistan, India's economy and that whole notion of a resurgent India that is going to be the new emergent power, that's all going to get lost. We are talking nuclear weapons here and there's no way the Pakistani army is going to allow India to walk in or even to be humiliated."

"The entire political galaxy of Pakistan, including the people of Pakistan are going to line up solidly behind the Pakistani army on this one," he said.

And, Sethi added, "We are not talking of an army of a 100,000 people. We are talking of an army and a mindset in Pakistan -- a 60-year-old mindset in Pakistan, a national security State was that built on the basis of an enemy without, on the border. And, that's not going to change so quickly."

"So, if there is conflict with India, it will be an all-out conflict. I say that with full responsibility. I don't wish to say it, but I have seen it at very close quarters," he said.

"How the entire media, the entire opposition and even the Taliban suddenly folded right behind the Pakistani army on the mere mention of a threat of war with India."

Sethi, continued to hammer away saying that consequently, "It is in India's interest also to resolve some of these disputes, build trust with Pakistan. Give the new civilian dispensation the space and the opportunity to turn some of these things back."

"Therefore, this government needs space. We need to give Pakistan the space in which its interests can be protected with out crumbling from within," he said.

'Another 26/11? There's nothing India can do!': Rediff.com news

------------------------

Very realistic and pragmatic assessment from a man largely considered liberal, pro-peace and 'anti-establishment' in Pakistan and often highly critical of the military.

All he is trying to say is that Pakistan has the privelege to do another 26/11 and India is going to sit still.The scars of the last one are not yet gone and another one means the average Indian citizen will force the GoI to take action in such a scenario and body bags coming home will become iirrelevant .

This is the same line of thought that made Bhutto encourage Ayub to
implement Op Gibraltar and Musharraf commit kargil in 1998 thinking that posessing nukes may stop India from retaliation

Secondly he is banking on the older generations Gandhian attidude.
The younger generation is rash ,arrogant,highly nationalistic and the response they will give will be entirely different

Thinking India will not be able to do anything is unrealistic