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India can currently deploy only 7-8 submarines against enemy forces

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NEW DELHI: If India goes to war today, it will have just seven to eight aging conventional submarines to deploy against enemy forces. This deeply blunts the country's underwater combat edge against Pakistan, which already has five relatively new conventional submarines and is angling to get six more advanced vessels from China. Beijing, of course, is leagues ahead with 47 diesel-electric submarines and eight nuclear-powered ones.


The INS Sindhurakshak disaster last week, which blew a big hole in the Indian Navy's operational capabilities, has further compounded the problems. Defence minister A K Antony admitted in Parliament on Monday that "extensive checks on weapon-related safety systems and audit of standard operating procedures (SOPs) on all operational submarines have been ordered''.

The minister also confirmed the "explosion" on board INS Sindhurakshak was due to the "possible ignition of armament'' in the vessel's forward section. TOI had last week reported that "inadvertent mishandling of ammunition'' on the submarine, which was all set to leave on an extended patrol with a full weapons load of 18 cruise missiles and torpedoes, had emerged as the most probable reason behind the sinking of the over 2,500-tonne submarine.

"The cause of ignition is, however, yet to be established. Visual and forensic examination would throw more light on the possible cause of ignition. This will be possible only after the submarine is afloat and de-watered,'' said Antony.

The minister, however, did not dwell upon the fact that the Navy is left with only 13 aging diesel-electric submarines - 11 of them over 20 years old — due to political and bureaucratic apathy in pushing long-delayed submarine construction projects under his watch.

Four of the 13 submarines - nine Kilo-class of Russian origin and four HDW of German-origin — are undergoing "a long refit'' to extend their operational lives. "Two kilo-class or Sindhugosh series submarines are at Hindustan Shipyard Ltd at Visakhapatnam, while two HDW or Shishumar-class vessels are at the Mumbai naval dockyard for the long refits," said a source.

The Navy does have one nuclear-powered submarine INS Chakra, taken on a 10-year lease from Russia last year, but it's not armed with nuclear-tipped missiles due to international treaties. INS Chakra can serve as a deadly `hunter-killer' of enemy submarines and warships with its 300-km range Klub-S land-attack cruise missiles as well as other missiles and advanced torpedoes.

Pakistan Navy, incidentally, is the first force in the Indian Ocean Region (IOR) to have submarines equipped with air-independent propulsion (AIP) in the shape of three French Agosta-90B vessels.

Conventional submarines have to surface every few days to get oxygen to recharge their batteries. Bu those fitted with AIP can stay submerged for much longer periods to significantly boost their stealth and combat capabilities, somewhat narrowing the gap with nuclear-powered submarines.

India, however, has even dithered in taking a decision to fit AIP in the last two of the six French Scorpene submarines being constructed for over Rs 23,000 crore at Mazagon Docks under "Project-75'', which is already running four years behind the original 2012-17 induction schedule. The first Scorpene will be delivered only by November 2016.


Similarly, the new programme, "Project-75India'', to construct six advanced stealth submarines, armed with both land-attack missile capabilities and AIP, is yet to even take off despite being granted "acceptance of necessity'' way back in November 2007. It will take over a decade for the first submarine to roll out under this project worth well over Rs 50,000 crore.
India can currently deploy only 7-8 submarines against enemy forces - Times Of India
 
Thats really late. India definitely needs an independent body to handle decisions for these kinds of issues because democracy can be a slow process and these cannot be so slow.

Pakistan's Army being more "powerful" and China's political environment both make them agile and nimble to take quick decisions on defense related matters.

More importantly, I am a little surprised that the Military planners in India have let the force levels go so low. India talks of being a blue water Navy - maybe the priorities are a bit skewed?
 
Thats really late. India definitely needs an independent body to handle decisions for these kinds of issues because democracy can be a slow process and these cannot be so slow.

Pakistan's Army being more "powerful" and China's political environment both make them agile and nimble to take quick decisions on defense related matters.

More importantly, I am a little surprised that the Military planners in India have let the force levels go so low. India talks of being a blue water Navy - maybe the priorities are a bit skewed?

Yes, the underwater arm has been neglected. But it is not because of skewed priorities, but because planned acquisitions did not come through. The scorpene program is running 5 years late. As per original plans, they should have gotten the first scorpene by 2011, with one each succeeding year. The delay in that program has left the navy high and dry (so to speak).

However, for a navy with blue water ambitions, the lack of SSNs is very telling. Currently there is only one SSN in the IN, leased from Russia. Reports indicate that India will purchase or lease a second one as well. I fail to understand why the IN does not operate or plan to operate at least a modest fleet of SSNs, given the vast maritime territory it has to guard.

The only silver lining is the indigenous SSBN program, which seems to be proceeding well. However, they play a different role, that of nuclear deterrence and land attack.

The puzzling aspect is that the IN has done marvelously in modernizing (and even indigenizing) all its surface assets. They are by far the best of the three services in having evolved into a cutting edge force, as far as the surface fleet goes. But unless drastic measures are taken with urgency, the conventional submarine fleet will be almost as small as Pakistan's - simply unacceptable for a navy that is five times larger, and has to sanitize and defend a coastline ten times larger (including the island chains).

The "skewed priorities" you allege has been attributed to the fact that naval aviators have often served as the service chiefs and other high ranking posts, but only a few submariners have attained high office, because of the small number of submariners in comparison to aviators and surface warfare specialists - making it a catch-22 situation.
 
@janon wierd that the force commanders make the call. An independent body that does not favor any type of force should be in charge. Also, there is definitely a need to rope in the time delays that India has. You need a way to keep a check on time over runs.

You say the submarine contract running 5 years late. With a multi front areas of concern you cannot let your guard down even for a few months - let alone years.

Please note. this is neither a flaming or trolling post. It is a matter of fact thought.
 
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in future when india will get schorpion subs at that time PN add advance chinese subs
so we can easily cater indians
 
please read about Yuan, Qing subs with Sterling based AIP system before making a statement. PLNAF is no longer what it used to be. Remember the Song class sneaked through US battle group unnoticed. Under estimating your enemy is the worst thing.
 
in future when india will get schorpion subs at that time PN add advance chinese subs
so we can easily cater indians

Pakistan yet to sign any deal..so please,stop making castle in the air..
 
please read about Yuan, Qing subs with Sterling based AIP system before making a statement. PLNAF is no longer what it used to be. Remember the Song class sneaked through US battle group unnoticed. Under estimating your enemy is the worst thing.

the "Song incident" is sort of bluff thats used for more defence budget by USN,even chinese will tell you that.and even Chinese here will admit that their priority is Pacific and not IOR..and IN never underestimated opponent.thats why we have specific criteria when its come to acquisition.but sub procurement is running late.thats why we're in such a condition..but good this is,IN's sub procurement plan is kicked off in which they will get nearly 20 new subs within 20 years,including several indigenous one..
 
Not as problematic as it sounds.
China currently can deploy 4 SSNs in a conflict against us and they are still noisy.The older hans are waste.
Paks threat is 3 agosta 90bs.
 
Not as problematic as it sounds.
China currently can deploy 4 SSNs in a conflict against us and they are still noisy.The older hans are waste.
Paks threat is 3 agosta 90bs.

current ssn is noisy against the USN yes, that why they arnt mass produced(next gen maybe). however india is no USN or even a JSDF.
 
current ssn is noisy against the USN yes, that why they arnt mass produced(next gen maybe). however india is no USN or even a JSDF.

So one require to be a USN or a JSDF to detect a noisy sub . That is a weird logic .
 
NEW DELHI: If India goes to war today, it will have just seven to eight aging conventional submarines to deploy against enemy forces. This deeply blunts the country's underwater combat edge against Pakistan, which already has five relatively new conventional submarines and is angling to get six more advanced vessels from China. Beijing, of course, is leagues ahead with 47 diesel-electric submarines and eight nuclear-powered ones.


The INS Sindhurakshak disaster last week, which blew a big hole in the Indian Navy's operational capabilities, has further compounded the problems. Defence minister A K Antony admitted in Parliament on Monday that "extensive checks on weapon-related safety systems and audit of standard operating procedures (SOPs) on all operational submarines have been ordered''.

The minister also confirmed the "explosion" on board INS Sindhurakshak was due to the "possible ignition of armament'' in the vessel's forward section. TOI had last week reported that "inadvertent mishandling of ammunition'' on the submarine, which was all set to leave on an extended patrol with a full weapons load of 18 cruise missiles and torpedoes, had emerged as the most probable reason behind the sinking of the over 2,500-tonne submarine.

"The cause of ignition is, however, yet to be established. Visual and forensic examination would throw more light on the possible cause of ignition. This will be possible only after the submarine is afloat and de-watered,'' said Antony.

The minister, however, did not dwell upon the fact that the Navy is left with only 13 aging diesel-electric submarines - 11 of them over 20 years old — due to political and bureaucratic apathy in pushing long-delayed submarine construction projects under his watch.

Four of the 13 submarines - nine Kilo-class of Russian origin and four HDW of German-origin — are undergoing "a long refit'' to extend their operational lives. "Two kilo-class or Sindhugosh series submarines are at Hindustan Shipyard Ltd at Visakhapatnam, while two HDW or Shishumar-class vessels are at the Mumbai naval dockyard for the long refits," said a source.

The Navy does have one nuclear-powered submarine INS Chakra, taken on a 10-year lease from Russia last year, but it's not armed with nuclear-tipped missiles due to international treaties. INS Chakra can serve as a deadly `hunter-killer' of enemy submarines and warships with its 300-km range Klub-S land-attack cruise missiles as well as other missiles and advanced torpedoes.

Pakistan Navy, incidentally, is the first force in the Indian Ocean Region (IOR) to have submarines equipped with air-independent propulsion (AIP) in the shape of three French Agosta-90B vessels.

Conventional submarines have to surface every few days to get oxygen to recharge their batteries. Bu those fitted with AIP can stay submerged for much longer periods to significantly boost their stealth and combat capabilities, somewhat narrowing the gap with nuclear-powered submarines.

India, however, has even dithered in taking a decision to fit AIP in the last two of the six French Scorpene submarines being constructed for over Rs 23,000 crore at Mazagon Docks under "Project-75'', which is already running four years behind the original 2012-17 induction schedule. The first Scorpene will be delivered only by November 2016.


Similarly, the new programme, "Project-75India'', to construct six advanced stealth submarines, armed with both land-attack missile capabilities and AIP, is yet to even take off despite being granted "acceptance of necessity'' way back in November 2007. It will take over a decade for the first submarine to roll out under this project worth well over Rs 50,000 crore.
India can currently deploy only 7-8 submarines against enemy forces - Times Of India

I think no country should take IN as easy as many of the people thinking. IN might possibly take away the contract from local vendor to:

DCNS for;
6 Scorpions
6 Andrasta

From Russia;
6 Amur 1650
6 Amur 950

Also IN is getting 4 local SSBN and may be some 4-6 Akula-II(upgraded) SSBNs from Russian on lease..
 
Thats really late. India definitely needs an independent body to handle decisions for these kinds of issues because democracy can be a slow process and these cannot be so slow.

Pakistan's Army being more "powerful" and China's political environment both make them agile and nimble to take quick decisions on defense related matters.

More importantly, I am a little surprised that the Military planners in India have let the force levels go so low. India talks of being a blue water Navy - maybe the priorities are a bit skewed?
I am surprised too for planners without any achievable long-term planning, a decision made after racking their brains at morning
 
Doesn't sound legit. Its just the old Indian tactic of asking for more money by selling fear, to their public and govt officials who know jack about defense and military technology.
 
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