INDIA: Building a Modern Arsenal in India

[gubbi]

Anybody could talk trash, but people will only take you seriously if you

back it up with FACTS;

Hands-down, the Su-30MKI is superior to all Flankers short of the J-11B in PLAAF service. It is difficult to compare the MKI to the J-11B however, due to their relative advantages in different areas. The Su-30MKI is about 20% heavier, and features an engine with slightly less powerful dry(non-afterburning) thrust, thus giving it a slightly lower thrust-to-weight ratio. Furthermore, the Su-30MKI also has about 8 times the radar-cross section of the J-11B. In terms of radar, the Su-30MKI has a clear advantage, and the MKI still retains a slight advantage in avionics despite major improvements to China's indigenous avionics industry. The MKI is also more maneuverable at subsonic speeds, though the J-11B has a superior climb-rate and better acceleration.
WikiAnswers - Indian air force vs PLAAF

And you quote an answer to a fanboy question posted by another fanboy who has no credentials whatsoever? Can you back up that answer with real credible sources?
Dude atleast try quoting some credible sources and not wiki answers or yahoo answers!!
How did one calculate the RCS of Su-30MKI to be 8 times that of your esteemed J-11B?

Oh, btw if you missed this tiny bitty last part of the post, let me put it here FYI..

"First answer by ID1368901278. Last edit by Rbi89. Contributor trust: 0 [recommend contributor]. Question popularity: 2 [recommend question]."

Stupid fanboys!

 

[faithfulguy]

I guess India arm forces doesn't purchase anything that is superior to weapons use by China besides MKI.

 

[baba firangi]

Baba Firangi,

Please take a look at the following figures published by Global Firepower and see the difference, now indian economy currently having 40% the size of chinese economy will surely take 15 years atleast to come upto the standard where china is today.




........................................China.......................................................India

Total Population ............1,330,044,544..................................................1,147,995,904
Military Manpower Available 729,323,673...................................................584,141,225
Fit for Military Service .........609,273,077...................................................467,795,073
Reaching Military Age Yearly ..20,470,412.....................................................22,229,373
Active Military Personnel ..........2,255,000......................................................1,325,000
Active Military Reserves ..............800,000......................................................1,155,000
Active Paramilitary ..................3,969,000......................................................1,293,300
Total Air-Based Weapons ...............1,900.............................................................1,007
Total Land-Based Weapons ..........31,300...........................................................10,340
Total Naval Units ...............................760................................................................143
Towed Artillery Systems ...............14,000.............................................................4,175
Merchant Marine Strength ...............1,822...............................................................501
Major Ports and Terminals ......................8................................................................. 9
Aircraft Carriers ......................................1..................................................................1
Destroyers ...........................................21..................................................................8
Frigates ................................................42................................................................16
Submarines ...........................................68 ............................................................. 18
Patrol Coastal Craft .............................368...............................................................43
Mine Warfare Craft ................................39 ...............................................................12
Amphibious Operations Craft ................121.................................................................7
Defense Budget / Expenditure $59,000,000,000..................................$32,350,000,000
Foreign Reserves $1,534,000,000,000................................. $275,000,000,000
Purchasing Power $7,099,000,000,000.............................. $2,966,000,000,000
Oil Production .......................3,725,000 bbl.................................................810,000 bbl
Oil Consumption ...............6,930,000 bbl .................................................2,438,000 bbl
Proven Oil Reserves 12,800,000,000 bbl ...........................................5,700,000,000 bbl
Total Labor Force .................800,700,000.................................................516,400,000
Roadway Coverage ..........1,930,544 km.................................................3,316,452 km
Railway Coverage .......................75,438 km.................................................63,221 km
Waterway Coverage .................124,000 km.................................................14,500 km
Coastline Coverage ......................14,500 km.................................................7,000 km
Major Serviceable Airports .....................467............................................................346
Square Land Area...................9,596,960 km ............................................3,287,590 km

The one thing that amuses me about our Pakistani friends here is the enthusiasm they display while comparing India to Brother China.. The kind of hard work they put in to gather the figures to undermine the Republic of India by comparing raw numbers, since no numbers exist by which they can compare their own country with ours'.. I wonder what their reaction would be if I were to come up with numbers comparing China to the USA.. But then I wont.. USA is not my country.. And with regards to China, I cannot come up with many facts to show India is better off than China today.. Humbled.. Brother China to the rescue, eh?

But ain't we missing something here? Do we Indians actually have to reach the stage China is today? Heck, we never reached what china was 50 years ago either.. For a very simple reason, we don't follow the Chinese growth model, or for that reason any foreign growth model.. Our growth model is completely Indian, or rather INDIGENOUS if that amuses you..

We are a different country than China, and we follow a totally a different system and growth model.. India never will be what China is today cause we don't have to be what China is today.. We can be well better.. So much for "INDIA WILL BE WHERE CHINA IS TODAY BY 2XXX"..

Thank you..

 

[sudhir007]

Baba Firangi,

Please take a look at the following figures published by Global Firepower and see the difference, now indian economy currently having 40% the size of chinese economy will surely take 15 years atleast to come upto the standard where china is today.




........................................China.......................................................India

Total Population ............1,330,044,544..................................................1,147,995,904
Military Manpower Available 729,323,673...................................................584,141,225
Fit for Military Service .........609,273,077...................................................467,795,073
Reaching Military Age Yearly ..20,470,412.....................................................22,229,373
Active Military Personnel ..........2,255,000......................................................1,325,000
Active Military Reserves ..............800,000......................................................1,155,000
Active Paramilitary ..................3,969,000......................................................1,293,300
Total Air-Based Weapons ...............1,900.............................................................1,007
Total Land-Based Weapons ..........31,300...........................................................10,340
Total Naval Units ...............................760................................................................143
Towed Artillery Systems ...............14,000.............................................................4,175
Merchant Marine Strength ...............1,822...............................................................501
Major Ports and Terminals ......................8................................................................. 9
Aircraft Carriers ......................................1..................................................................1 --- no carrier right now china have
Destroyers ...........................................21..................................................................8
Frigates ................................................42................................................................16
Submarines ...........................................68 ............................................................. 18
Patrol Coastal Craft .............................368...............................................................43
Mine Warfare Craft ................................39 ...............................................................12
Amphibious Operations Craft ................121.................................................................7
Defense Budget / Expenditure $59,000,000,000..................................$32,350,000,000
Foreign Reserves $1,534,000,000,000................................. $275,000,000,000
Purchasing Power $7,099,000,000,000.............................. $2,966,000,000,000
Oil Production .......................3,725,000 bbl.................................................810,000 bbl
Oil Consumption ...............6,930,000 bbl .................................................2,438,000 bbl
Proven Oil Reserves 12,800,000,000 bbl ...........................................5,700,000,000 bbl
Total Labor Force .................800,700,000.................................................516,400,000
Roadway Coverage ..........1,930,544 km.................................................3,316,452 km
Railway Coverage .......................75,438 km.................................................63,221 km
Waterway Coverage .................124,000 km.................................................14,500 km
Coastline Coverage ......................14,500 km.................................................7,000 km
Major Serviceable Airports .....................467............................................................346
Square Land Area...................9,596,960 km ............................................3,287,590 km

why you jump up every time when we are talking about china. I know china run your country.......even every single military product donated by china link Al-Khalid or jf-17 or F-22p ........etc

 

[gogbot]

Brother, a few decades ago, something similar used to be said about Japanese economy.. The rest is CASE-STUDY..

Predicting future economies is an useless exercise.. Nobody knows for sure what will happen of US economy or of Chinese economy 20 years hence.. What you are talking about here is just assumption.. One can never safely predict what it will be like 5 years from now.. Economics doesn't follow a linear mathematical formula.. So talking bout China overtaking USA by 2030s or India becoming the 3rd largest economy would be heresy.. It would be far better if we set realistic but ambitious targets based on short-term predictions..

That's why i stopped at 2030. The Forcast goes as far as 2050.
Where China's economic size is greater than the India and US put to greater.

Given China's Current economic size and growth. Sheer momentum will let them overtake America.

OF course the Americans are always willing to fight for their position. We cant tell if they somehow Create a Magnificent growth rate to keep their lead.

Don't delude yourself to believing that China will stop growing. or they might slow down after 2025. Due to rising labor costs and a shrinking workforce.

The only factor is question here is the Indian Growth rate. With our inefficient system as many foreigners like to point out.
There are big chunks of the country that could contribute as growth drivers. Time will tell if we may utilize them

 

[baba firangi]

That's why i stopped at 2030. The Forcast goes as far as 2050.
Where China's economic size is greater than the India and US put to greater.

Given China's Current economic size and growth. Sheer momentum will let them overtake America.

OF course the Americans are always willing to fight for their position. We cant tell if they somehow Create a Magnificent growth rate to keep their lead.

Don't delude yourself to believing that China will stop growing. or they might slow down after 2025. Due to rising labor costs and a shrinking workforce.

The only factor is question here is the Indian Growth rate. With our inefficient system as many foreigners like to point out.
There are big chunks of the country that could contribute as growth drivers. Time will tell if we may utilize them

Brother..
Momentum, mass, impulse, force etc, are phenomenas that work in Physics.. Not in geo-politics, not in real-politics and not at all in economics.. None of the rating agencies that have predicted china will surpass US economy by 2040 will be ready to take guarantee over their own analysis.. US has and will have more brains working to keep their hegemony alive compared to china.. It will always be a one-sided game.. What it will be like beyond 2020, only time will tell..

And as you well know, the kind of political system we are living in is the worst that can befall a democracy.. Yet, inspite of it we are growing at speed that can be called "More than decent".. Who knows in a few years time we may get a government that really cares about people.. What do you think will be our growth rate then?.. Wishful thinking isn't it?.. But then, can be very much possible in the very near future.. The key word here is, possibilities in short time-frame.. Heck, i hate astronomy and glass gazing..

 

[gogbot]

If you people want a Military Comparison between India and china.

Then let me break it down for you.

China where it stands today Is ahead of India, as China can manufacture almost everything In china.

India Still relies on foreign Imports to counter china's arsenal. Which means we are not on the Same league. The Reasons for which have already been explained in my older posts.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/42002-rapidly-burgeoning-defence-manufacturing-capacity-india.html#post593969

While are armed forces may Give China pause against Aggression, China wont loose sleep over invasion.

In order to be on the same League with China. We need to be able to produce 70% of our systems domestically.

That Target will not be achieved till 2020 i am afraid.

The IAF by 2020 will have for the first Time An air-fleet made in India.
With Jets LCA, MKI and FGFA all manufactured here. Using Indian Missiles like the ASTRA BVR. And Home grown radars as well as SAM's
(the MMRCA does not count if the F-18 is selected as I dont believe he US lets u Modify there jets to use the Indian AESA radar.) And also a Fleet on Indigenous UAV and UCAV's. (important point if we do not posses the KAveri engine at this point, we can not have An 80% domestic arsenal)

The Indian Navy. Has already met the Indigenous mark, but must now strive to achieve capabilities
Will Finally have its 3 carriers. A set of Indigenous Missiles in its arsenal. Not much for the Navy actually.

All it has to do is make sure all its projects are completed. Including the LCA-N ensuring a Domestic alternative to the Russian Manufactured mig-29K just in case.


The Army will be the One to let us down the Most. They will still Import Artillery and tanks. And whilst a domestic alternative is available for tanks. We need a domestic Artillery system.
And the Success and Domestic nature of the F-INSAS will factor in a lot to this Branch achieving its Indigenous capability.
Also is the Manufacture of The INDO-Russian JV 4th gen tank starts by then IT will help the Army a great deal.
The Army needs to find a Domestic alternative to artillery however.


Strategic command has always been Completely Indigenous. In order to be a world power. It needs to Make the Shift to Satellite based Data networks. and Adapt our BMD technology for shooting down ANTI-Satellite Missiles.

As well as that We would need a Fleet of the New Arihant class Vessels. Equipped with a Variant of the Agni-5.

As well as the next generation of the Agni, Ready for Induction by 2020.

But due to the Army's Tardiness. It wont have Real time data Networks and artillery till 2025.

So by 2025. By then we are one of the top 5 most capable militarizes in the world. I would say 3rd but It seems as though Russia still may have a say in that.

 

[faithfulguy]

If you people want a Military Comparison between India and china.

Then let me break it down for you.

China where it stands today Is ahead of India, as China can manufacture almost everything In china.

India Still relies on foreign Imports to counter china's arsenal. Which means we are not on the Same league. The Reasons for which have already been explained in my older posts.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/42002-rapidly-burgeoning-defence-manufacturing-capacity-india.html#post593969

While are armed forces may Give China pause against Aggression, China wont loose sleep over invasion.

In order to be on the same League with China. We need to be able to produce 70% of our systems domestically.

That Target will not be achieved till 2020 i am afraid.

The IAF by 2020 will have for the first Time An air-fleet made in India.
With Jets LCA, MKI and FGFA all manufactured here. Using Indian Missiles like the ASTRA BVR. And Home grown radars as well as SAM's
(the MMRCA does not count if the F-18 is selected as I dont believe he US lets u Modify there jets to use the Indian AESA radar.) And also a Fleet on Indigenous UAV and UCAV's. (important point if we do not posses the KAveri engine at this point, we can not have An 80% domestic arsenal)

The Indian Navy. Has already met the Indigenous mark, but must now strive to achieve capabilities
Will Finally have its 3 carriers. A set of Indigenous Missiles in its arsenal. Not much for the Navy actually.
All it has to do is make sure all its projects are completed. Including the LCA-N ensuring a Domestic alternative to the Russian Manufactured mig-29K just in case.


The Army will be the One to let us down the Most. They will still Import Artillery and tanks. And whilst a domestic alternative is available for tanks. We need a domestic Artillery system.
And the Success and Domestic nature of the F-INSAS will factor in a lot to this Branch achieving its Indigenous capability.
Also is the Manufacture of The INDO-russian JV 4th gen tank starts by then IT will help the Army a great deal.
The Army needs to find a Domestic alternative to artillery however.

Strategic command has always been Completely Indigenous. In order to be a world power. It needs to Make the Shift to Satellite based Data networks. and Adapt our BMD technology for shooting down ANTI-Versatility Missiles.
As well as that We would need a Fleet of the New Arihant class Vessels. Equipped with a Variant of the Agni-5.
As well as the nest generation of the Agni, Ready for Induction by 2020.

But due to the Army's Tardiness. It wont have Real time data Networks and artillery till 2025.

So by 2025. By then we are one of the top 5 most capable militarizes in the world. I would say 3rd but It seems as though Russia still may have a say in that.

I was waiting for your military comparison between India and China. it turn out to be a 1 sided affair. Just like a lot of Indian media talking about comparing between the 2 countries, its a one sided view.

I also you give too optomistic about the advancement of Indian weaponry. Especially strategic weapons. In my view, I do not believe that India would have an operational SLBM by 2020, especially the ICBM kind. Its a big jump from IRBM to ICBM and given India's progress, I would be surprise if Indian can test a land based ICBM by 2020, let alone deploy one. Finally, India has no need for ICBM.

 

[SinoIndusFriendship]

I was waiting for your military comparison between India and China. it turn out to be a 1 sided affair. Just like a lot of Indian media talking about comparing between the 2 countries, its a one sided view.

I also you give too optomistic about the advancement of Indian weaponry. Especially strategic weapons. In my view, I do not believe that India would have an operational SLBM by 2020, especially the ICBM kind. Its a big jump from IRBM to ICBM and given India's progress, I would be surprise if Indian can test a land based ICBM by 2020, let alone deploy one. Finally, India has no need for ICBM.

When India bragged about Agni II being able to hit Shanghai (and further), the Japanese ceased immediately selling India the advanced Carbon-fibre based Tubes used for their missiles.

 

[Chanakyaa]

Most likely by 2040-2050, India would be where China is now in military technology.

China is ahead in Production of Hardware ( at a much larger scale ) Indegenoisly
China is ahead in Developing Indigenous Tech.

But, India Matches my Joint Programmes and Direct Purchases.

So if u consider Indigenous production yes, it will take India 20+ Years to achieve it but as far as the Matching of capability is concerned India is say 10 Years behind China.

• India Lags in No of Nuclear Subs, Destroyers
• India Lags in No. of Fighters , we r 1/3 of PLAAF
• India Lags in Missile Range

BUT

• India will have 3 Nuclear Subs by 2020-2025
• India will have 2-3 Aircraft carriers by 2020
• India Will have 240 Sukhois + 170 or More Super Hornets/Fafale + FGFA in Production + 100+ LCAs
• India all set to get 1000 T90s
• India all set to Induct Agini III
• India all set to Test Agni V
• Over 40 New Advanced Ships, Destroyers under Construction in India/Russia.

So it sums up a basic fact , India is lagging but Certainly Matching Fast.Thanks to the 8% Growth of Economy.

It will take time for India to Match the Production capability but with Money power it will remain close to the "technological" edge that China has since Both Nations depend Heavly on Russian Equipment ..
In majority of ares China is Ahead in Numbers not the Technology.

 

[SinoIndusFriendship]

China is ahead in Production of Hardware ( at a much larger scale ) Indegenoisly
China is ahead in Developing Indigenous Tech.

But, India Matches my Joint Programmes and Direct Purchases.

So if u consider Indigenous production yes, it will take India 20+ Years to achieve it but as far as the Matching of capability is concerned India is say 10 Years behind China.

• India Lags in No of Nuclear Subs, Destroyers
• India Lags in No. of Fighters , we r 1/3 of PLAAF
• India Lags in Missile Range

BUT

• India will have 3 Nuclear Subs by 2020-2025
• India will have 2-3 Aircraft carriers by 2020
• India Will have 240 Sukhois + 170 or More Super Hornets/Fafale + FGFA in Production + 100+ LCAs
• India all set to get 1000 T90s
• India all set to Induct Agini III
• India all set to Test Agni V
• Over 40 New Advanced Ships, Destroyers under Construction in India/Russia.

So it sums up a basic fact , India is lagging but Certainly Matching Fast.Thanks to the 8% Growth of Economy.

It will take time for India to Match the Production capability but with Money power it will remain close to the "technological" edge that China has since Both Nations depend Heavly on Russian Equipment ..
In majority of ares China is Ahead in Numbers not the Technology.

China is ahead of India in the following technologies:

1 - Rifles and machine guns (aka Ansas)
2 - Tanks (aka Arjun)
3 - Jets (aka Tejas)
4 - Subs with engines (aka Arihant)
......

 

[baba firangi]

China is ahead of India in the following technologies:

1 - Rifles and machine guns (aka Ansas)
2 - Tanks (aka Arjun)
3 - Jets (aka Tejas)
4 - Subs with engines (aka Arihant)
......

Ohkkkkkkk!!!

Thanks for your wise suggestions.. Thanks for enlightening us with your bright analysis..

Now please also enlighten us a little bit more elaborately:-

1 - Rifles and machine guns ( aka INSAS)
China is ahead as in? Quality of their rifles, or the number of rifles they use.. And do let us know as to how does INSAS specifically comes into the picture.. Do elaborate, so that we can dump our INSAS rifles altogether..

2 - Tanks ( aka Arjun)
Are you comparing the fact that china has thousands of tanks compared to only 124 arjuns ordered by India.. I fully agree.. We should have made thousands more of arjuns..

3- Jets ( aka Tejas)
So tejas is one project that is keeping our aviation industry down.. Our air force will be better off if we were to fund some other country into developing a modified Mig-21 for us and then calling it a 50-50 joint venture.. Very fair..

4 - Subs with engines ( aka Arihant)
This is the wisest one.. So it is the engine that is bothering you.. As in the Chinese are ahead of us only because they run their subs with engines, is it?.. And do we run ours' without engine?.. I see, We surely need to go a long way to catch up.. I think it never occured to our engineers that installing a ready engine into a submarine hull was all that big a deal once the hull and power-plant are ready.. (BTW how do you know that an engine isn't installed in the arihant already, when even the sub's basic design and most of the specifications are kept confidential)..

 

[Chanakyaa]

China is ahead of India in the following technologies:

1 - Rifles and machine guns (aka Ansas)
2 - Tanks (aka Arjun)
3 - Jets (aka Tejas)
4 - Subs with engines (aka Arihant)
......

Indeed The Indegenious Development is far ahead of what India has.
China is Planning a Gen 5 plane while we have just completed a Gen 4.5 Plane.

But my point is despite of the Ingeniousness capability, which in any way speeding fast, India has all the good stuff it needs and Military is being given a gr8 attention.

On one side we are having PAKFA with Russia coz we cant have our own indigenous Gen 5 Plane, but we shall have it in the same time as China get it , the JXX.

Add to it that we are not sitting quite, idle, MCA is on the table and we match up soon say +15 Years.

Of course the Gap will exist but surely on the Front of Denece.. at any time..India against China ( like Pakistan againt India )will have enough firepower to deter the opponent away from the borders.

 

[RAHUL INDIAN]

Indeed The Indegenious Development is far ahead of what India has.
China is Planning a Gen 5 plane while we have just completed a Gen 4.5 Plane.

But my point is despite of the Ingeniousness capability, which in any way speeding fast, India has all the good stuff it needs and Military is being given a gr8 attention.

On one side we are having PAKFA with Russia coz we cant have our own indigenous Gen 5 Plane, but we shall have it in the same time as China get it , the JXX.

Add to it that we are not sitting quite, idle, MCA is on the table and we match up soon say +15 Years.

Of course the Gap will exist but surely on the Front of Denece.. at any time..India against China ( like Pakistan againt India )will have enough firepower to deter the opponent away from the borders.

just to add to it...
when they say 5 gen it is equal to 4 gen at max as per international standards...
only Russia and US can give a 5 gen fighter for long time....china cant even make MKI for years...
India will have its 5th gen long long before China....though they will put up some plane in air ... but it will be very inferior to Russian/Indian/US 5th gen plane....it might be more like a 4 gen plane...just like the difference b/w any chinese plane and MKI as of now...

 

[Chanakyaa]

just to add to it...
when they say 5 gen it is equal to 4 gen at max as per international standards...
only Russia and US can give a 5 gen fighter for long time....china cant even make a MKI for years...

Well, Rahul The fact is They are actually making Licensed Copies of Su27 as J11, very much like MKI.
MKI had advantages due to the extra Western and Israeli stuff.

China's Aviation industry is more advanced than India.
The J10 comparable to F16, is definitely superior than LCA, and Most importantly it doesn't use any parts from out side, as in LCA 30% parts are from outside.

LCA gives us real edge over Pakistan which does not have an Indigenous Fighter and JF17 is Like our FGFA Programme, developed by Russia But Funded by India and Russia.

Its Expected that Russia will induct its First PAKFA by 2018 and China may have its JXX by 2020.

So in other words, The Indian FGFA and Chinese JXX will be in picture at the same time but till we dont develop our MCA and get it airborne we cant get the "Indigenous Developed" Edge that China will enjoy with JXX Programme.