India Army has over 1193 T-90 tanks. Another 464 by March 2025

[Yasser76]

To add my rupees worth, surely any such battle favours the defender surely? If India's strategy is Cold Start then surely extensive anti-tanks defences like canals, minefields and dug in ATGM teams will cause untold misery for any Indian advance and be hard for any air support to take out? It seems like PA can reply on these to bog down any Indian manourvre and their attacking pints will be limited and predicatble right?

 

[Smarana Mitra]

You keep repeating the same thing hoping it will become the truth. It is not Reverse engineered or developed in India. It is only Made in India under transfer of technology, India does not own the rights to it. (This refers to the FCS in T90, T72 and Arjun MK-1). If MK-1A has indigenous FCS we will see it when the tank enters service.
Only in India is a 200 tank production run called “limited” and the same tank being only 30% local is called an indigenous tank.

India ahs made only 100+ Arjun tanks and no more will ever be made. That is the end of Arjun.

By the way, your IPR logic does not work in defence. In defence only physical leverage works. Do you think any country will wait for some other country to permit them to make weapons during war? But with physical leverage (import of non substitutable critical components), that can be enforces. That is why I only consider indigenous in defence as having indigenous components regardless of paperworks

 

[iLION12345_1]

India ahs made only 100+ Arjun tanks and no more will ever be made. That is the end of Arjun.

By the way, your IPR logic does not work in defence. In defence only physical leverage works. Do you think any country will wait for some other country to permit them to make weapons during war? But with physical leverage (import of non substitutable critical components), that can be enforces. That is why I only consider indigenous in defence as having indigenous components regardless of paperworks

So you’re saying your countries own defense project failed? But then you’re also praising your indigenous tech? And what about the recent MK-1A Arjun order? I’m pretty sure more are coming.

 

[Smarana Mitra]

To add my rupees worth, surely any such battle favours the defender surely? If India's strategy is Cold Start then surely extensive anti-tanks defences like canals, minefields and dug in ATGM teams will cause untold misery for any Indian advance and be hard for any air support to take out? It seems like PA can reply on these to bog down any Indian manourvre and their attacking pints will be limited and predicatble right?

Yes, you are 100% right. Any tank thrust from Indian side will be suicidal with the entire set of tanks being wiped out and the soldiers massacred. There is no way tanks can be thrust into Pakistan when Pakistan has dug extensive canals, has massive Indus river and cheap RPGs and ATGMs can be made in plenty. This is not to mention PAF which will have huge advantage from the sky.

Tanks in modern warfare are only a 2nd line weapon for infantry thrust. The first line is always AF & Navy

So you’re saying your countries own defense project failed? But then you’re also praising your indigenous tech? And what about the recent MK-1A Arjun order? I’m pretty sure more are coming.

Nope. MK1A is simply fake news. Arjun tanks were experimental. It has several changes from T90. Arjun has 4 crew whereas T90 has 3 crew. Arjun has 120mm rifled bore while T90 has 125mm smooth bore. Arjun has extra man for loading ammunition while T90 has autoloader. Arjun is 65ton while T90 is 50ton.

Overall, Arjun needs extra manpower, extra fuel, can't fire APFSDS (rifled bore can't fire APFSDS) and Arjun has problems with transportation using trains and barges due to extra weight. Arjun was meant to replicate Abrams but it turned out that Abrams is unfit for Indian environment where there are mountains, deserts, swamps etc everywhere. Abrams is only suitable for operations in plain lands in Middle east and becomes unwieldy in mountains and swamps

 

[notorious_eagle]

Omg. So let's assume Britain is an island and only asymetic warfare . Why on earth was it the 1st to invent a tank and why has it bothered all these years to design develop and maintain tank battalions. Additionally when was the last time Britain fought a war on its soil? I am just amazed at some of the thinking.
Have a nice day

I think the bigger problem is your lack of knowledge, especially of history but you're pretending to be an expert on a topic where you have very little knowledge.

Britain was the first to invent a tank because it was fighting a conventional war against the Imperial German Army. This is why Britain developed a tank to try and balance the power in its favor to break the stalemate in Trench Warfare. Same argument goes in World War 2. Britain was fighting conventional battles in Mainland France, North Africa and Middle East.

Post World War 2, Britain was part of NATO and was supposed to absorb a substantial punch from the Soviet 58th Tank Army across the Fulda Gap during the Cold War. Throughout the Cold War, the threat perception was largely conventional as the Soviets had a much bigger Tank Army.

If we look at the Present, there is no conventional threat that Britain faces. Russia will not be invading Western Europe or Britain any time soon. Taliban don't exactly have Tanks.

So i couldn't agree more, your thinking is bringing lots of amusement when you don't even have a basic grasp on history.

 

[notorious_eagle]

Yes, you are 100% right. Any tank thrust from Indian side will be suicidal with the entire set of tanks being wiped out and the soldiers massacred. There is no way tanks can be thrust into Pakistan when Pakistan has dug extensive canals, has massive Indus river and cheap RPGs and ATGMs can be made in plenty. This is not to mention PAF which will have huge advantage from the sky.

Sorry i disagree

The Indian Armored thrust towards Pakistan will be protected; and ATGM hell holes, canals etc would have been scouted by advanced Indian units to ensure safe axis of advancement. If India seriously wants to threaten and punish Pakistan, it would have to launch an Armored thrust.

While no doubt Pakistan has built very extensive defenses against the advancing Indian Armor, India still maintains the advantage in terms of numbers and can launch multiple thrusts forcing the Defender to be off balance. Its quite the Chicken and Egg kind of situation.

Tanks in modern warfare are only a 2nd line weapon for infantry thrust. The first line is always AF & Navy

A Tank Army is what is needed to capture and seriously punish your enemy. AF and Navy are fantastic to launch punitive strikes, but that's about it. It were the Russian tanks that took Crimea away from Ukraine, not the AF or the Navy.

 

[jk007]

Sorry i disagree

The Indian Armored thrust towards Pakistan will be protected; and ATGM hell holes, canals etc would have been scouted by advanced Indian units to ensure safe axis of advancement. If India seriously wants to threaten and punish Pakistan, it would have to launch an Armored thrust.

While no doubt Pakistan has built very extensive defenses against the advancing Indian Armor, India still maintains the advantage in terms of numbers and can launch multiple thrusts forcing the Defender to be off balance. Its quite the Chicken and Egg kind of situation.



A Tank Army is what is needed to capture and seriously punish your enemy. AF and Navy are fantastic to launch punitive strikes, but that's about it. It were the Russian tanks that took Crimea away from Ukraine, not the AF or the Navy.

@notorious_eagle Would you please verify if the info provided by @iLION12345_1 in the past few posts is valid? Those are long posts, but the gist seems to be:
a) Pak's AK is better than T-90.
b) Arjun (ignoring the weight issues) is not a good tank Vs Pak's tanks.
c) Pak's tanks / ammunition / armour protection is much better than those of India's.

Please be aware that I did not (try to) understand much of the techinical details in those posts.

However, please give your inputs.

PS: I am aware you are a pakistani, but is Arjun (ignoring weight issues) not a good tank?

 

[Smarana Mitra]

@notorious_eagle Would you please verify if the info provided by @iLION12345_1 in the past few posts is valid? Those are long posts, but the gist seems to be:
a) Pak's AK is better than T-90.
b) Arjun (ignoring the weight issues) is not a good tank Vs Pak's tanks.
c) Pak's tanks / ammunition / armour protection is much better than those of India's.

Please be aware that I did not (try to) understand much of the techinical details in those posts.

However, please give your inputs.

PS: I am aware you are a pakistani, but is Arjun (ignoring weight issues) not a good tank?

I am the one who claimed Arjun was not a good tank. I am an Indian and yet I stand by what I said. When it comes to technology and science, I tell things as they are and don't take sides. According to my understanding, Arjun is not a good tank

 

[CONNAN]

after going through all the pages I am just wondering if any one can throw some light on how well our tanks can sustain against the DU rounds from Pakistani amour.

 

[iLION12345_1]

@notorious_eagle Would you please verify if the info provided by @iLION12345_1 in the past few posts is valid? Those are long posts, but the gist seems to be:
a) Pak's AK is better than T-90.
b) Arjun (ignoring the weight issues) is not a good tank Vs Pak's tanks.
c) Pak's tanks / ammunition / armour protection is much better than those of India's.

Please be aware that I did not (try to) understand much of the techinical details in those posts.

However, please give your inputs.

PS: I am aware you are a pakistani, but is Arjun (ignoring weight issues) not a good tank?

I’ll condense it for others, Removing the technical details, what I said was:

A) AK is better than T90 with regards to more advanced ammunition and better ERA, T90 would somewhat better protection on turret, AK much better protected on hull front (T90 somewhat better on hull side). AK has newer gen ERA. (ERA and base armor are different things, overall armor here means combination of both). AK and T90 have fire control systems and tech from similar Eras, AK-1 has better FCS and tech than T90S, as it is newer. Ammunition advantage is with AK/AK-1. Mobility would be similar. Numbers in Indian favor.

B) Arjun MK1A has good technology, but poor armor, mobility and ammunition/Gun. MK-1 is not good in general.

C) The protection of VT-4 is better than any Indian tank. AK/AK-1 mentioned above. T84M has similar armor to T90, even with newer ERA, since base armor is better on T90.
The rest of the fleet of both countries only have enough armor to be relevant against smaller Anti-Tank weapons (modernized T72 and Type 85 have average protection, older T72 and AZ poor protection) not ATGMs or other tanks (unless obsolete ammo is used, like the BM17).

Ammunition advantage is with Pakistan in all cases, as all Pakistani tanks fire The same 2 rounds, Naiza DU for AK/AZ, BTA-4 for T85, T84M (haven’t even talked about that thing yet) and VT4. All Indian tanks fire 3 ammunition, mango and older BM17 (being replaced and should be gone in a couple of years) for T90/T72 (both have same gun), and 120MM APFSDS for Arjun, all are inferior to both Pakistani rounds.

I can provide sources for all of this, if anyone wants to verify. Just ask.

after going through all the pages I am just wondering if any one can throw some light on how well our tanks can sustain against the DU rounds from Pakistani amour.

Explained above, Pakistan uses Naiza DU. Apart from T90 (on turret and upper front plate), it is unlikely any Indian tank could survive it. BTA-4 APFSDS is superior to Naiza-DU, Pakistan uses that ammo on T84M, VT-4 and type 85.

Keep in mind no tank is immune, the strongest parts of tanks are turret front and upper front plates, on these areas T90S can generally stop Pakistani ammo, and Pakistani tanks can stop any Indian ammo. The difference is all the other places, Pakistani tanks could penetrate other places easier than Indian ones could due to superior ammo, that doesn’t mean Pakistani tanks cannot be penetrated in weaker spots by Indian tanks, generally tankers never aim for weak spots in actual combat, only center mass. That’s why better ammo maters.
At the end Of the day it comes down more to training, intel, combined arms and also technology, usually whoever gets to fire first will be at an advantage, that’s where the advanced sensors, FCS etc come in.

 

[jk007]

I am the one who claimed Arjun was not a good tank. I am an Indian and yet I stand by what I said. When it comes to technology and science, I tell things as they are and don't take sides. According to my understanding, Arjun is not a good tank

How do you reconcile DRDO's public ask to army to conduct open trials between arjun & t-90?

I read that during those trials, the staff manning t-90 were exhausted (after some hours), while those manning arjun are not.

Outside of weight issues, there must be reason behind confidence of DRDO on arjun.

 

[CONNAN]

How do you reconcile DRDO's public ask to army to conduct open trials between arjun & t-90?

I read that during those trials, the staff manning t-90 were exhausted (after some hours), while those manning arjun are not.

Outside of weight issues, there must be reason behind confidence of DRDO on arjun.

Initial batch of T90 around 800 has no AC and the crew were exhausted due to soaring desert temperatures aka crew heat exhaustion later in June 2009, the AK Antony-led defence acquisitions council had approved the acquisition of 1,657 ACs to equip all the tanks at a cost of Rs 597 crore

Govt buys non-AC tanks, draws CAG fire | India News - Times of India

India News: India’s main-battle tanks, the Russian-origin T-90S, are without any air-conditioning. Apart from crew discomfort, this is “degrading” the sophisticat

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

Lack of ACs degrading India's T-90 tanks

The Russian T-90 tanks bought by India were rendered vulnerable as components showed signs of degradation under extreme heat as they were bought without air conditioners, the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) said in its latest report. The CAG noted that the tanks were procured without the...

www.indiatoday.in

 

[Dazzler]

@notorious_eagle Would you please verify if the info provided by @iLION12345_1 in the past few posts is valid? Those are long posts, but the gist seems to be:
a) Pak's AK is better than T-90.
b) Arjun (ignoring the weight issues) is not a good tank Vs Pak's tanks.
c) Pak's tanks / ammunition / armour protection is much better than those of India's.

Please be aware that I did not (try to) understand much of the techinical details in those posts.

However, please give your inputs.

PS: I am aware you are a pakistani, but is Arjun (ignoring weight issues) not a good tank?

With a rifled gun and obsolete ammo, it's not.

 

[Smarana Mitra]

How do you reconcile DRDO's public ask to army to conduct open trials between arjun & t-90?

I read that during those trials, the staff manning t-90 were exhausted (after some hours), while those manning arjun are not.

Outside of weight issues, there must be reason behind confidence of DRDO on arjun.

Arjun was a project by UPA govt who had no genuine intention to develop anything of use. They started Arjun project just for eyewashing to show that they are doing some work, though in reality, it was useless work. When BJP came, they analysed Arjun tanks objectively and realised that it was impractical. Indian T90 was already on the verge of indigenisation and could be equipped with modern equipments to suit all the needs. India has started integrating all modern equipments like thermals, ATGMs etc to fire from T90 tanks after that. Now, there is no claim by DRDO or anyone to test Arjun tanks. Arjun tanks are relics of the past. The only place it can be used is Thar desert where the terrain is flat and the regiment will be stationed there until they become old enough to be disposed