Independence Day celebrations in Toronto, Canada

[Ehsan]

Independence Day celebrations at Ahmadiyya Peace Village in Toronto, Canada

 

[Ehsan]

 

[Ehsan]

 

[That Guy]

Despite clear prejudice, and really dumb laws against them, Ahmedis have always been fiercely loyal to Pakistan. It's a damn shame there are so many that still believe them to be foreign and inferior.

 

[Ehsan]

Despite clear prejudice, and really dumb laws against them, Ahmedis have always been fiercely loyal to Pakistan. It's a damn shame there are so many that still believe them to be foreign and inferior.

even after fierce opposition the consul general of pakistan in toronto kept the venue and showed up for a speech too !

 

[Metanoia]

even after fierce opposition the consul general of pakistan in toronto kept the venue and showed up for a speech too !

Who were these fiercely opposing folks?

 

[Ehsan]

Who were these fiercely opposing folks?

you might have seen this Pakistani Paper doesn't want Ahmadis to celebrate 14th August Pakistan Independence Day

 

[syedali73]

Despite clear prejudice, and really dumb laws against them, Ahmedis have always been fiercely loyal to Pakistan. It's a damn shame there are so many that still believe them to be foreign and inferior.

Really? you call this dramey baazi as fierce loyalty? If they were really fiercely loyal to Pakistan, they would put Pakistan before their faith and accept the constitution of Pakistan that declares them as minority. They neither believe in democracy (the decision or dumb laws as you put it was made by the majority of lawmakers) nor in constitution and you sir are declaring them fiercely loyal.

 

[That Guy]

Really? you call this dramey baazi as fierce loyalty? If they were really fiercely loyal to Pakistan, they would put Pakistan before their faith and accept the constitution of Pakistan that declares them as minority. They neither believe in democracy (the decision or dumb laws as you put it was made by the majority of lawmakers) nor in constitution and you sir are declaring them fiercely loyal.

The constitution declares them non-Muslims, they do not have to accept such a thing, in order to be loyal to the state.

Loyalty to the state is not the same thing as loyalty to the government. Are some major parties not loyal to Pakistan, because they reject certain amendments to the constitution? Are they not loyal, just because they feel PML-N is doing a terrible job of running the country? Whatever you may think of Imran Khan, no one can argue against his loyalty, even though he fits both these descriptions.

There is a such thing as tyranny of the majority. No one should be forced to put one part of whom they are, over another; its fascist to force them to choose, something you'd expect in fascist states.

When you have a minority whom are running from their home nation, due to oppression, in droves, you have a problem with your government, NOT your minorities.

Your very definition of loyalty is fascist.

 

[syedali73]

The constitution declares them non-Muslims, they do not have to accept such a thing, in order to be loyal to the state.

Loyalty to the state is not the same thing as loyalty to the government. Are some major parties not loyal to Pakistan, because they reject certain amendments to the constitution? Are they not loyal, just because they feel PML-N is doing a terrible job of running the country? Whatever you may think of Imran Khan, no one can argue against his loyalty, even though he fits both these descriptions.

There is a such thing as tyranny of the majority. No one should be forced to put one part of whom they are, over another; its fascist to force them to choose, something you'd expect in fascist states.

When you have a minority whom are running from their home nation, due to oppression, in droves, you have a problem with your government, NOT your minorities.

You very definition of loyalty is fascist.

Cut it will you. It is not only Ahmedis who are leaving Pakistan. I am not Ahmedi but I left Pakistan for a better future for myself and my children. There are plenty of members on this forum who are expatriates but not Ahmedi and all have reasons to leave their country. Point I am trying to make is, a person who does not believe in unanimously agreed upon constitution can be anything but loyal to the state. Ahmedis can be loyal and patriotic to Pakistan just like other minorities are who do not whine and cry day and night for being considered as minorities. They are loyal to state, celebrate but without putting up posters of 'Ahmedi Muslim Community' because by doing so they are putting their faith before their country. Have you seen Shia or Aga Khani or other minor sects putting up such posters during these celebrations? Shias are not persecuted in Pakistan by religious extremists? Are they not declared as Kaafirs? More Ahmedis will whine, more criticism they'll draw, it is as simple as that.

 

[That Guy]

Cut it will you. It is not only Ahmedis who are leaving Pakistan. I am not Ahmedi but I left Pakistan for a better future for myself and my children. There are plenty of members on this forum who are expatriates but not Ahmedi and all have reasons to leave their country.

Which is why I said "due to oppression". A large chunk are leaving as refugees, and that is a fact. I don't have to cut anything, reality speaks for itself.

Point I am trying to make is, a person who does not believe in unanimously agreed upon constitution can be anything but loyal to the state.

and that is completely flawed, because it was NOT unanimous. Do you honestly think the Ahmedi community was consulted? Or they agreed to this? This amendment to declare them non-Muslims was not a unanimous decision at all. Again, I say, you do not have to agree with a nation's laws, in order to be loyal to it. If you agree with everything your nation says and does, you're not loyal, you're just a brainwashed drone, incapable of thinking for himself, which (I'm sure you'll agree) is a terrible idea.

Ahmedis can be loyal and patriotic to Pakistan just like other minorities are who do not whine and cry day and night for being considered as minorities.

If you haven't noticed, other minority groups are leaving Pakistan due to similar systematic oppression that Ahmedis face, with thousands being forced to move to India of all places, simply due to having the same faith as India does (Hindu and Sikh).

They are loyal to state, celebrate but without putting up posters of 'Ahmedi Muslim Community' because by doing so they are putting their faith before their country.

No they're not. This event was organized by the Ahmedi community, they have every right to put that sign up, and do not deserve this flawed criticism of yours.

Have you seen Shia or Aga Khani or other minor sects putting up such posters during these celebrations?

Yes I have, this is a nonsense argument.

Shias are not persecuted in Pakistan by religious extremists? Are they not declared as Kaafirs? More Ahmedis will whine, more criticism they'll draw, it is as simple as that.

Shia also complain (there are always protests are rallies when they're attacked by terrorists, and the gov fails to protect them), as they should. Every minority should complain, if they're not being given the rights they deserve, or adequate security to protect them from terrorism.

BY THE WAY, you still haven't answered my Imran Khan point.

 

[syedali73]

Which is why I said "due to oppression". A large chunk are leaving as refugees, and that is a fact. I don't have to cut anything, reality speaks for itself.

and that is completely flawed, because it was NOT unanimous. Do you honestly think the Ahmedi community was consulted? Or they agreed to this? This amendment to declare them non-Muslims was not a unanimous decision at all. Again, I say, you do not have to agree with a nation's laws, in order to be loyal to it. If you agree with everything your nation says and does, you're not loyal, you're just a brainwashed drone, incapable of thinking for himself, which (I'm sure you'll agree) is a terrible idea.


If you haven't noticed, other minority groups are leaving Pakistan due to similar systematic oppression that Ahmedis face, with thousands being forced to move to India of all places, simply due to having the same faith as India does (Hindu and Sikh).


No they're not. This event was organized by the Ahmedi community, they have every right to put that sign up, and do not deserve this flawed criticism of yours.


Yes I have, this is a nonsense argument.


Shia also complain (there are always protests are rallies when they're attacked by terrorists, and the gov fails to protect them), as they should. Every minority should complain, if they're not being given the rights they deserve, or adequate security to protect them from terrorism.

BY THE WAY, you still haven't answered my Imran Khan point.

Leaving country is not necessarily the sign or reason of persecution. It is very easy to get oneself declared as oppressed and try to seek political asylum or immigration abroad. Pakistanis are leaving Pakistan, in large numbers, in search of better prospects and the main reason behind this migration is poor economy than anything else. You do not want to accept it is your choice. There is no law or regulations that prevents Ahmedis from getting jobs or establishing businesses or living a free and prosperous life in Pakistan.

As far as disagreement with constitutional amendments is concerned, disagreement and defiance are two different things. I don't know why you brought in Imran and why you expected me to reply to this particular question. At any rate, he expresses his concerns about certain clauses or weakness if you will but not defies or reject those. Ahmedis are defying constitutional definition of this group as non-Muslim and continue to call themselves as Muslims whereas there is not a single Islamic country that recognizes their faith in alignment with Islamic faith as we know of.

 

[Ehsan]

@syedali73 what you are saying is that the U.S. Allows gay marriage and weed in some states so I have to agree with both of these laws in order to be an American ? Even Americans disagree does that make them any less patriotic toward America ?

@That Guy

 

[That Guy]

Leaving country is not necessarily the sign or reason of persecution. It is very easy to get oneself declared as oppressed and try to seek political asylum or immigration abroad.

Do you honestly believe that there is NO oppression in Pakistan against minorities? Look at Pakistan's state. Just 5 years ago, sectarianism was at an all time high. Your argument is simply diverting the issue.

Pakistani's are leaving Pakistan, in large numbers, in search of better prospects and the main reason behind this migration is poor economy than anything else.

All you're doing here is diverting the issue. We're not talking about economic migrants, we're talking about refugees that are created due to violence against them. Stop pretending that oppression doesn't exist in Pakistan.

You do not want to accept it is your choice. There is no law or regulations that prevents Ahmedis from getting jobs or establishing businesses or living a free and prosperous life in Pakistan.

But when you have angry mobs targeting minorities, simply for their religion, it makes it next to impossible for the minorities group in question not to consider moving to another nation.

What you said is simply nonsense, so there is nothing is accept.

As far as disagreement with constitutional amendments is concerned, disagreement and defiance are two different things.

Ahmedis disagree with the constitutional amendment that declares them non-Muslims, they have a moral right to defy it.

I don't know why you brought in Imran and why you expected me to reply to this particular question.

You know why I brought this up, dont play the ignorant "I know nothing" card.

At any rate, he expresses his concerns about certain clauses or weakness if you will but not defies or reject those.

Except he does defy laws and clauses quite regularly, or did you completely forget about his massive sit in? When he was court ordered to stop, he refused, when he was confronted by police, he taunted them.

Stop pretending these things never happened.

Ahmedis are defying constitutional definition of this group as non-Muslim and continue to call themselves as Muslims whereas there is not a single Islamic country that recognizes their faith in alignment with Islamic faith as we know of.

This is the worst logic ever. It's basically saying "stop liking what I dont like". We're not talking about other nations, we're talking about Pakistan. Also, defying one clause that has to do with their identity has nothing to do with them defying the entire constitution, or their loyalty to Pakistan. This is fascist.


If I say to you "you're a woman", when you clearly identify as a man, would you accept? Probably not. The government should have no right to dictate how a person identifies themselves, anything less is fascist.

@syedali73 what you are saying is that the U.S. Allows gay marriage and weed in some states so I have to agree with both of these laws in order to be an American ? Even Americans disagree does that make them any less patriotic toward America ?

@That Guy

I completely agree. The entire argument that it makes them less loyal and patriotic is simply flawed logic.

 

[syedali73]

Do you honestly believe that there is NO oppression in Pakistan against minorities?

Yaar, try to work with lesser words whenever possible. I'll only reply to your very first question... and the answer to that is, I really believe that there is every sort of oppression against those Pakistanis who do not belong to ruling elite. Those Pakistanis include followers of all faiths, Muslims and non-Muslims.