In solidarity with the Hindu/Indian posters here on Defence.PK

[IMARV]

The UNSC is not going to object to India and Pakistan asking for a third option to be added.

But it should tell you that it was never about Kashmiris but to solve Ind-Pak issue. @Joe Shearer

 

[ChennaiDude]

You've completely missed the woods for the trees again.

My post was not about differences in our respective interpretations of the UNSC Resolutions, it was about being honest with yourself and others on why you oppose a UN plebiscite - because you KNOW that a majority will pick Pakistan over India.

No I have not- India should honor the UN Plebiscite-(Sorry maybe I was not clear)- As soon as all the criteria for that to happen is met to the dot- Thats what I meant by saying your understand and my understanding on the criteria as per the UN varies. I am all for it-I support it off course.

 

[xeuss]

@AgNoStiC MuSliM We are open to discussions which can make life of Kashmiris better and welcome Pakistan support in that.

Those conversations are better done with Kashmiris. Last I checked all of Kashmir is under a lockdown and its pro-Indian political leadership incarcerated or forced to sign bonds of silence in exchange for their freedom.

Fine examples of discussions and democracy.

 

[KhanBaba2]

The UNSC is not going to object to India and Pakistan asking for a third option to be added.

If India and Pakistan agrees to the third option, UNSC does not have a role. If India or Pakistan do not agree to the third option, UNSC can't do anything. UNSC is basically irrelevant now. We have to solve this between ourselves.

 

[IMARV]

Those conversations are better done with Kashmiris. Last I checked all of Kashmir is under a lockdown and its pro-Indian political leadership incarcerated or forced to sign bonds of silence in exchange for their freedom.

Fine examples of discussions and democracy.

You wont find me supportive of the way we are handling our own people in Kashmir. I wish we could go there, talk to them and wish Ramzan Mubarak.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

No I have not- India should honor the UN Plebiscite-(Sorry maybe I was not clear)- As soon as all the criteria for that to happen is met to the dot- Thats what I meant by saying your understand and my understanding on the criteria as per the UN varies. I am all for it-I support it off course.

The 'criteria' was updated after the first resolution, in which the UNSC did not even recognize the presence of actual Pakistani military forces in J&K, which demolishes the ludicrous excuse Indians trot out, of 'Pakistan unilaterally withdrawing from the territory first'.

If you wish to argue this further, read the thread on the UNSC Resolutions:

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-kashmir-resolutions-explanations.7904/

Like I said, your disingenuousness and dissemblance only breeds contempt.

Pakistanis have seen this Bollywood song and dance from Indians enough to call out BS when we see it.

 

[ChennaiDude]

You've completely missed the woods for the trees again.

My post was not about differences in our respective interpretations of the UNSC Resolutions, it was about being honest with yourself and others on why you oppose a UN plebiscite - because you KNOW that a majority will pick Pakistan over India.

In fact it was India who insisted on this in the first place - No (UN Resolution on Plebiscite).
https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/limitsofinfluence_chapter.pdf

 

[xeuss]

If India and Pakistan agrees to the third option, UNSC does not have a role. If India or Pakistan do not agree to the third option, UNSC can't do anything. UNSC is basically irrelevant now. We have to solve this between ourselves.

The problem is this....

On the international stage, India says it is a bilateral problem.
With Pakistan, India says it is an internal issue.
With the Kashmiris, India says it is a law and order issue

I think it is safe to say, India does not want to "solve" the problem. It is happy to maintain the status quo, because at the end, it has endless soldiers to sacrifice (mostly poor anyway), and Kashmiris are suffering.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

If India and Pakistan agrees to the third option, UNSC does not have a role. If India or Pakistan do not agree to the third option, UNSC can't do anything. UNSC is basically irrelevant now. We have to solve this between ourselves.

What if the majority do not want independence? A UN Plebiscite with all 3 options addresses all concerns.

Even if the proposed solution was to agree bilaterally on giving the Kashmiris independence, a UN monitoring and security force would be necessary in a newly independent territory with no military of her own and the UNSC still has to sign off on the solution given that the pending UNSC Resolutions are still applicable.

 

[ChennaiDude]

The 'criteria' was updated after the first resolution, in which the UNSC did not even recognize the presence of actual Pakistani military forces in J&K, which demolishes the ludicrous excuse Indians trot out, of 'Pakistan unilaterally withdrawing from the territory first'.

If you wish to argue this further, read the thread on the UNSC Resolutions:

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-kashmir-resolutions-explanations.7904/

Like I said, your disingenuousness and dissemblance only breeds contempt.

Pakistanis have seen this Bollywood song and dance from Indians enough to call out BS when we see it.

Your wish- Take it as you please- Like I said Agree to disagree- Thanks for the link - I already have all the details on the UNSC resolution from my end - Thanks.

What if the majority do not want independence? A UN Plebiscite with all 3 options addresses all concerns.

Even if the idea was to give the Kashmiris independence, a UN monitoring and security force would be necessary in a newly independent territory with no military of her own and the UNSC still has to sign off on the solution given that the pending UNSC Resolutions are still applicable.

Without trying to be rude- did you not just tell everyone here to go visit the link below for furthet discussion on the same?

If you wish to argue this further, read the thread on the UNSC Resolutions:

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-kashmir-resolutions-explanations.7904/

 

[xeuss]

You wont find me supportive of the way we are handling our own people in Kashmir. I wish we could go there, talk to them and wish Ramzan Mubarak.

Cool. That's a start. Hopefully we have more of you.

Empathy for the common people is what is lost in this jingoism.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Without trying to be rude- did you not just tell everyone here to go visit the link below for furthet discussion on the same?

Since I did not bring up discussions on the minutiae of the UNSC Resolutions - YOU and @IMARV did, yes, that is what I told both of you to do.

And yes, you're continuing to be flippant, rude and disingenuous.

 

[Soumitra]

It's simple - instead of hiding behind all these excuses of Pakistan withdrawing unilaterally and mumbo jumbo of India's own laws passed to justify it's own occupation (essentially the criminal passing laws to justify his/her crimes), just admit the truth, that Indians know in their hearts the reality that a majority of the residents of J&K WILL NOT choose India in a plebiscite, and that is why India does not want a plebiscite.

That is what I mean by being honest in your engagement with Pakistanis, instead of dancing around in circles trying to argue the minutiae of the UNSC Resolutions on J&K or the Simla Agreement.

@Joe Shearer

I'm going to address this to you as well, not because you fall in the category of @ChennaiDude & @IMARV, but because I think you're already at a point where you are honest with yourself and Pakistanis.

We can all be honest with ourselves and with the other side on what we believe & what we desire. All these circular arguments we have are pointless when we all know the TRUE motivations driving the positions on each side. Pakistanis support the UNSC Resolutions and a UN plebiscite because we believe the majority of residents of J&K will choose Pakistan. Indian's oppose the same because they believe that the majority will likely choose independence or Pakistan before choosing India.

Honesty with oneself and others brings respect, not this dance we do where everyone knows whats what but refuses to acknowledge it (as if such acknowledgement would change the status quo), which in turn only breeds contempt and loathing, especially in the context of something so emotional as the Jammu & Kashmir dispute.

OK I will be honest. Are you ready to be?

1. India knows that plebiscite has a high probability of going against it
2. The current status quo favours India. It can easily overcome small pinpricks of militancy
3. When you are in a position of strength you do not voluntarily give up that position in favour of the enemy. - this means that India will never voluntarily agree to conduct a plebiscite that it may lose
4. The current militancy is nothing but an irritant and it will NOT force India to give up Kashmir or conduct a plebiscite
5. Pakistan does not have the strength to take Kashmir militarily from India
6. For 70 years Pakistan has spoken in UN, OIC, and other forums but it has not yeiled a result and it will not yield a result
7. Pakistan may think that it has a moral high ground but in a world of might is right a moral high ground means nothing
8. Just like Pakistan, India cannot militarily take over Pakistani Kashmir but as the status quo favours us we are not in a hurry
9. Pakistan's alliance with China has indirectly forced the west to align with India
10. After 9/11 even if there is a trace of Islamic tinge in any situation, the world's opinion becomes against that situation

 

[xeuss]

OK I will be honest. Are you ready to be?

1. India knows that plebiscite has a high probability of going against it
2. The current status quo favours India. It can easily overcome small pinpricks of militancy
3. When you are in a position of strength you do not voluntarily give up that position in favour of the enemy. - this means that India will never voluntarily agree to conduct a plebiscite that it may lose
4. The current militancy is nothing but an irritant and it will NOT force India to give up Kashmir or conduct a plebiscite
5. Pakistan does not have the strength to take Kashmir militarily from India
6. For 70 years Pakistan has spoken in UN, OIC, and other forums but it has not yeiled a result and it will not yield a result
7. Pakistan may think that it has a moral high ground but in a world of might is right a moral high ground means nothing
8. Just like Pakistan, India cannot militarily take over Pakistani Kashmir but as the status quo favours us we are not in a hurry
9. Pakistan's alliance with China has indirectly forced the west to align with India
10. After 9/11 even if there is a trace of Islamic tinge in any situation, the world's opinion becomes against that situation

All 10 points could be summed up in three words - MIGHT IS RIGHT

You could have saved tiring out your teeny weeny fingers by typing all that up.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

OK I will be honest. Are you ready to be?

1. India knows that plebiscite has a high probability of going against it
2. The current status quo favours India. It can easily overcome small pinpricks of militancy
3. When you are in a position of strength you do not voluntarily give up that position in favour of the enemy. - this means that India will never voluntarily agree to conduct a plebiscite that it may lose
4. The current militancy is nothing but an irritant and it will NOT force India to give up Kashmir or conduct a plebiscite
5. Pakistan does not have the strength to take Kashmir militarily from India
6. For 70 years Pakistan has spoken in UN, OIC, and other forums but it has not yeiled a result and it will not yield a result
7. Pakistan may think that it has a moral high ground but in a world of might is right a moral high ground means nothing
8. Just like Pakistan, India cannot militarily take over Pakistani Kashmir but as the status quo favours us we are not in a hurry
9. Pakistan's alliance with China has indirectly forced the west to align with India
10. After 9/11 even if there is a trace of Islamic tinge in any situation, the world's opinion becomes against that situation

There you go.

See, that wasn't so hard was it?

When it comes to discussions on the UNSC Resolutions, Indians that oppose a plebiscite should just stick with this:

1. India knows that plebiscite has a high probability of going against it
2. The current status quo favours India. It can easily overcome small pinpricks of militancy