In boost for 'Make in India', Dassault may manufacture Rafale fighter aircraft in India

[anant_s]

Lets consider FGFA for naval variant, but then which ORG optimize the FGFA for naval operations/EMALS?

Americans never touch a Russian tech., neither Russians touch the EMALS. So, its upto Indians & HAL, if FGFA become possible by 2020, then also start to make a naval version of this solution that can operate from American EMALS.

that is correct assumption and as lot of us tend to believe that EMALS might come with an offer of F 35 as well.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

In India, Dassault Aviation advance gently on the Rafale contract

Published on 11/27/2015 at 7:04

(loosely translated)

(Boursier.com) - The negotiations continue between France and India in an attempt to finalize the contract 'Rafale', which dragged on for months and even years if we integrate all the vicissitudes of what should have become the first export contract of fighter jet, since sold to other nations. Discussions now focus on the part of the contract to be performed locally, or at least on industrial offsets that could benefit the country as part of its "Make in India", which requires foreign companies which sign agreements scale of benefiting up the local economy.

In this case, the situation is complicated by the lack of aerospace industrial fabric necessary advanced for the realization of such a contract. The latest information obtained by the daily 'Economic Times' suggest that Dassault Aviation could propose installing in India an assembly line Gust, in addition to the two already existing in France. It could also be used for a version "low cost" business jet Falcon, which would reflect the industrialist. Anyway, this line would be operational for the 36 aircraft ordered by New Delhi, but it could be later concentrated on export versions of the jet.

Meanwhile, the French team has already identified the major manufacturers who will accompany him in his projects on site: local business daily quoted Reliance Defence Systems, Bharat Electronics and Samtel. The device could be supplemented by technology transfer for the benefit of the jet Tejas, late development by India.

En Inde, Dassault Aviation avance doucement sur le contrat Rafale

 

[Mike_Brando]

O yes we could afford that.......the gap for the time being will be filled by LCA tejas a year from now and 2022 is not that far away , is it ?
Just imagine a force that will operate the best of French(Rafale) and Russian technology(Pak FA) in 2020's...........and i'm not even getting into the current inventory

Hi man,wazzup!!

 

[Blue Marlin]

this is a win win for both sides.

• its a win for france as they finally conclude a deal which took long.
• also they don't have to build up their own production line in order to build indian planes.and would only have to build kits to be sent to india for assembly. which saves money
• it would count as the 50% investment in india so no extra money is required.
• second line to build the falco in india to maintain a steady rate of manufacture at France.

good for india because:

• finally get the jets
• contribute to 'make in india' scheme
• comes with some tot to build industry and ability
• helps with development of the lca in future variants
• experience building high tech jets will help when it come to building the amca
• possibility for building the falco and the rafale for export if more orders arrive

 

[Manindra]

this is a win win for both sides.

• its a win for france as they finally conclude a deal which took long.
• also they don't have to build up their own production line in order to build indian planes.and would only have to build kits to be sent to india for assembly. which saves money
• it would count as the 50% investment in india so no extra money is required.
• second line to build the falco in india to maintain a steady rate of manufacture at France.

good for india because:

• finally get the jets
• contribute to 'make in india' scheme
• comes with some tot to build industry and ability
• helps with development of the lca in future variants
• experience building high tech jets will help when it come to building the amca
• possibility for building the falco and the rafale for export if more orders arrive

Current tranche of 36 (I assume more) would be all assembled in France.

 

[Abingdonboy]

NEW DELHI: India's largest-ever military deal is likely to bring in big business for the private sector with the French side looking to set up a production centre for the Rafale fighter aircraft as well as a low-cost executive jet in India, besides sharing vital aircraft technology for the indigenous Tejas project.
View attachment 275177
Officials familiar with the project have told ETthat major partners for this 'Make in India' project are currently being identified by the French side and are likely to include Anil Ambani's Reliance Defence Systems, Noida-based Samtel and Bharat Electronics. These officials, both Indian and French, spoke on the condition they not be identified.
View attachment 275176
Spokespersons of the Anil Ambani-led Reliance Group told ET "there is no development". Officials on the French side told ET, on condition of anonymity, that the agreement between Rafale and an Indian partner will be on the lines of the 2012 agreement between the French company and the Mukesh Ambani-led Reliance Industries.
The NDA government had reformatted the UPA government deal and ordered 36 aircraft, instead of 126. The Rafale fighter deal, which will bring in at least $4.5 billion into 'Make in India' projects as per the contract being negotiated, is set to involve a third production line for the aircraft in India, French officials have told ET.

While two lines for the fighter are currently active in France at the same facility, a third line in India would take care of export orders for the fighters and also possible future orders by the Indian Navy and Air Force. The line would also support the production of a low-cost variant of the 'Falcon' executive jet for the Indian and Asian markets.

"It will not be possible to roll out any of the 36 fighters being acquired by India from the production line as it would take time to set up but future orders, including exports, will be fulfilled with the new line," a person involved in the discussions has told ET. "At most, the final painting of the last ten aircraft to be delivered to India could be carried out at the Indian assembly line. This itself is a very high technology process as the fighter has a special anti-radar coat," the person added.
Besides the joint production facilities in India, the French side is also set to transfer some key technologies to DRDO that would benefit the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) project. A complete list of the technology to be transferred is being finalised but would include several systems to make the LCA more effective.
Technology to be transferred includes the air intake system for the fighter, an undercarriage for the naval variant of the LCA, cutting edge radar absorbing painting technology as well as an integrated production line software and management system for the fighter aircraft.
While the main Rafale contract is likely to be signed this financial year, as was reported by ET, a separate contract for armament systems will be signed at a later date with French company MBDA. A partnership for transfer of technology and production could be inked with the Defence Research and Development Laboratory (DRDL) that specialises in advanced armaments.

Engineer-General Stephane Reb, Director of the International Directorate of the DGA (General Directorate for Armament) of the French Ministry of Defence is in New Delhi this week to finalise the inter-governmental agreement draft that is likely to be signed before January 26 when French President Francois Hollande will visit India as the Chief Guest at the Republic Day Parade.

In boost for 'Make in India', Dassault may manufacture Rafale fighter aircraft in India - The Economic Times
@Abingdonboy @Taygibay @PARIKRAMA

Do you see the level of garbage floating around about this deal? It was last week I was being tagged and taunted by numerous Pakistani members when the BS news about 36 being the final figure was reported (was it TOI? I can't remember...).


There is SO much more going on behind the scenes that we aren't aware of as outsiders.

Advanced tech for the LCA and possible Neuron tech for the AURA UCAV- now this is groundbreaking stuff. There was zero scope for this under the MMRCA framework but it seems the PM has seen the enourmous benefits one can get from govt-govt deals. I think a major difference between this Govt/PMO and the last is that this Govt/PMO is clearly thinking about the bigger picture and there actually some strategy at work. The last GoI's approach was rather formulaic and pretty disinterested. Sure they intiated the MMRCA but it was basically just another deal- they weren't trying to leverage it for strategic benefits which nations with light footed, proactive and foreward thinking foriegn policies do do.

Current tranche of 36 (I assume more) would be all assembled in France.

No question about it- those 36 will 100% be off the shelf purchases from France and delviered by late 2017/early 2018.

 

[Blue Marlin]

Current tranche of 36 (I assume more) would be all assembled in France.

well if they do build them in France then they would have to increase production to maintain the desired output. and they would have to maintain the output as it would be costly to increase the output and then to decrease it. meaning they would have to find more orders. making it in india is best for France and for india.

but the question of quality lingers in my thoughts. during the mcra negotiations Dassault did not want responsibility for the planes hal builds where as india did want Dassault to have responsibility. i fear this may be a problem. but in the end Dassault will bend. as if anything does happen Dassault's reputation will be hindered not hals.

i would make sense to have a full dedicated line in india to build more [72+jets] but i dont see this happening as the mki is filling in the void until the t-50 and the amca is inducted.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Hope a Reliance-Dassault plant happens.

Wasn't Reliance planning to set up some sort of "Aerospace valley/corridor" emulating Touloise in France?

Still it will take 5-6 years to properly setup whole infrastructure in india

My friend is aviation engineer in Airforce deployed in one of Northern command AFS tell me that things are not moving that fast what we are seeing in articles he said that air force bound to fly Migs till 2030.

No offence to your friend but it will only be the top echelons of the IAF, MoD and PMO who are aware of the details of the plans so he can't really give much more of an insight than any of us.

From contract signature it will take 3 years to set up a produciton line in India with it able to churn out its first Rafale 12 months from then- this is what I have heard from industry experts.

Its better India stick with import Rafale first. I bet the first Made in India Rafale will roll off the line on 2022. Can IAF afford that?

So... More than 100 rafales will be made in India through reliance- dassault partnership.

It won't make sense to invest the enourmous capital it takes to raise an advanced production line for an order less than around 80 units.

It not about money. Basically India lack the sophisticated industries to produce production line to support the whole Rafale production. If you want to be 100% made in India. That will include set up of supplier chain line industries, not just ask Dassault to produce a production line will do. It is something money cannot buy in short time.

A line many Chiense like to parrot again and again but with little (to no) emprical evidence to support this. Every single foriegn giant who has tied up with a private sector partner in India has stated the results have been impressive, the Indian partners have absorbed all the tech and the foriegn entities have actually ramped UP outsourcing/produciton in India (see Boeing, Airbus, Lockhead Martin, Cisco, Thales etc etc).

well if they do build them in France then they would have to increase production to maintain the desired output. and they would have to maintain the output as it would be costly to increase the output and then to decrease it. meaning they would have to find more orders. making it in india is best for France and for india.

Dassualt's CEO has already said thet will ramp up production to meet India's order- the first 36 are coming from France no matter what and will be delivered within 2 years.

but the question of quality lingers in my thoughts. during the mcra negotiations Dassault did not want responsibility for the planes hal builds where as india did want Dassault to have responsibility. i fear this may be a problem. but in the end Dassault will bend. as if anything does happen Dassault's reputation will be hindered not hals.

It's a different game all together now. Forget about the MMRCA and all the issues it faced- it has been taken into the feild and shot in the face by the MoD/PM. Dassualt have, since summer, been given a green light by the MoD to tie up with all the Indian partners it sees fit as per their own critieria to create a Dassualt-Indian parnter consortium churning out Rafales in India. This addresses the issues Dassualt had before as they will now sign up with an Indian private entity (probably Reliance) who will be the lead intergrator of the Rafale in India, HAL and many other Indian companies will of course provide components and sub-assemblies but Dassualt will be okay to take the liability now they have the choice.

@PARIKRAMA
hi!
two things that stand out in this news is

1. it looks IN too is considering Rafales and there is now some merit that government is open to considering IAF demand of more Rafale at later dates. we might end up having a number in vicinity of 190 as @Abingdonboy has maintained.
2. it looks like India is establishing a template for future manufacture of 2-3 types of fighter jets in parallel. i find some similarity with how multiple submarine programs are proposed to be managed by public and private shipyards. with this in practice i suppose it will create a healthy competitions between manufacturers to deliver on time. it will also give government flexibility to decide funding.

interesting times ahead surely.

Yes Sir no doubt about it. I had heard clearly that IN was considering French Dassault Rafale M over F35/F18ASH for IAC2 if applied with EMALS as existing birds wont fit such a system. Rafale M won over due to two points . One being that joint exercises between 2 ACCs have shown the different approaches and missions which had impressed IN who is mighty happy with MIg 29K upgraded ones at present but clearly felt that changing times needs more advanced birds with longer timelines to service us uptill 2060 type timelines. Secondly a MII means local production which is always the first vital interest of IN. Of course barring F35, F18ASH could also be produced in India but the setup cost for Dassault would be done already as IAF is also a customer something which makes more sense and attractive for IN.
The numbers are gonna swell up and will be much beyond 6 squadrons which ACM Raha had said. It will be close to original MMRCA -(126+63=189) types for IAF but in tranches. IN i see them playing with at least 45-60 jets for Rafale M

It will be interesting to see the IAC-2's fighter wing selection process. I think it is safe to assume it is between the Rafale-M and F-35C.

+For the IAC-2 alone the IN will require around 70 units (30-40 for the carrier and a similar number on shore) but the IAC-2 will not be the only one of her class so whatever fighter is selected for the IAC-2 will be present in many more numbers than that to support multiple carriers.

The IAC-2 atleast 12-14 years away from commission, lets see which new solutions become available.

12-14 years? No, the IAC-2 will begin construction in late 2016/early 2017 to be ready for sea trails in 2024/5. The final design is basically complete- it is just a question of EMALS/steam catapults that is consuming the IN's design bureau now and most of that is subject to a govt-govt deal with the US for EMALS tech.

 

[Echo_419]

Wasn't Reliance planning to set up some sort of "Aerospace valley/corridor" emulating Touloise in France?


No offence to your friend but it will only be the top echelons of the IAF, MoD and PMO who are aware of the details of the plans so he can't really give much more of an insight than any of us.

From contract signature it will take 3 years to set up a produciton line in India with it able to churn out its first Rafale 12 months from then- this is what I have heard from industry experts.



It won't make sense to invest the enourmous capital it takes to raise an advanced production line for an order less than around 80 units.


A line many Chiense like to parrot again and again but with little (to no) emprical evidence to support this. Every single foriegn giant who has tied up with a private sector partner in India has stated the results have been impressive, the Indian partners have absorbed all the tech and the foriegn entities have actually ramped UP outsourcing/produciton in India (see Boeing, Airbus, Lockhead Martin, Cisco, Thales etc etc).


Dassualt's CEO has already said thet will ramp up production to meet India's order- the first 36 are coming from France no matter what and will be delivered within 2 years.



It's a different game all together now. Forget about the MMRCA and all the issues it faced- it has been taken into the feild and shot in the face by the MoD/PM. Dassualt have, since summer, been given a green light by the MoD to tie up with all the Indian partners it sees fit as per their own critieria to create a Dassualt-Indian parnter consortium churning out Rafales in India. This addresses the issues Dassualt had before as they will now sign up with an Indian private entity (probably Reliance) who will be the lead intergrator of the Rafale in India, HAL and many other Indian companies will of course provide components and sub-assemblies but Dassualt will be okay to take the liability now they have the choice.




It will be interesting to see the IAC-2's fighter wing selection process. I think it is safe to assume it is between the Rafale-M and F-35C.

+For the IAC-2 alone the IN will require around 70 units (30-40 for the carrier and a similar number on shore) but the IAC-2 will not be the only one of her class so whatever fighter is selected for the IAC-2 will be present in many more numbers than that to support multiple carriers.



12-14 years? No, the IAC-2 will begin construction in late 2016/early 2017 to be ready for sea trails in 2024/5. The final design is basically complete- it is just a question of EMALS/steam catapults that is consuming the IN's design bureau now and most of that is subject to a govt-govt deal with the US for EMALS tech.

Are you sure F-35 is the best choice for our carriers,also from what i have heard the nearest service center for F-35 is in Japan or Turkey ?

 

[Abingdonboy]

I dont know DAE even started the work on PWR reactor or not, or when the first land based version will be constructed. 2023 is little pretty highly optimistic.

Nuclear propulsion isn't assured.

The Rafale can be used on US catapult technology. The same can also be applied to the N-LCA.

The N-LCA will be a nice technology demonstrator for future home-grown naval fighters but it isn't suited to be the frontline fighter of the IN's carriers with its single engine and limited range/payload.

Over a period of time, we will see LCA, Rafale and the PakFa. The Rafale and PakFa will come online in 2020. Wait for the Modi Putin meeting.

I'm not so confident about the PAK-FA/FGFA.

Lets consider FGFA for naval variant, but then which ORG optimize the FGFA for naval operations/EMALS?

Rule out a catapult-launchable FGFA right now mate. It will never materilise- the Russians aren't interested and if EMALS comes the American angle will make it all but unworkable. Right now India would be lucky to get the FGFA by 2022, then 2-3 years (probably more) to design,test and certify a possible naval variant able to be launched from EMALS would be cost prohibitive- perhaps not even possible. The FGFA wasn't deisgned to operate in maritime conditions under the high stresses of a catapult take-off, it might be all but impossible to actually make it work.

 

[Blue Marlin]

Dassualt's CEO has already said thet will ramp up production to meet India's order- the first 36 are coming from France no matter what and will be delivered within 2 years.

i guess your right there. i think two years is the earliest when they arrive.

It's a different game all together now. Forget about the MMRCA and all the issues it faced- it has been taken into the feild and shot in the face by the MoD/PM. Dassualt have, since summer, been given a green light by the MoD to tie up with all the Indian partners it sees fit as per their own critieria to create a Dassualt-Indian parnter consortium churning out Rafales in India. This addresses the issues Dassualt had before as they will now sign up with an Indian private entity (probably Reliance) who will be the lead intergrator of the Rafale in India, HAL and many other Indian companies will of course provide components and sub-assemblies but Dassualt will be okay to take the liability now they have the choice.

so let me get it straight here. no more hal but private companies? if so then thats good. but i s still do have doubts as a large order is being injected into private companies will little or no experience and it would be risky as hal. if i were to choose then i would say Tata as they have a very good industrial background and are building c295's as well so it would be more of a safer option.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Are you sure F-35 is the best choice for our carriers,also from what i have heard the nearest service center for F-35 is in Japan or Turkey ?

An F-35 buy for India would be very complicated- would India join the program itself? What level of parntership would it be offered/interested in?

For the numbers of future carrier fighters required MRO/service centres would have to be set up in India.

The F-35 program is a bloody mess and India would do well to steer clear of it, the French aren't looking for a 5th gen fighter for the foreseeable future which ensures the Rafale will be upgraded extensively long into the future- India will be hitching itself to the right wagon if it got involved there IMHO.

so let me get it straight here. no more hal but private companies? if so then thats good. but i s still do have doubts as a large order is being injected into private companies will little or no experience and it would be risky as hal. if i were to choose then i would say Tata as they have a very good industrial background and are building c295's as well so it would be more of a safer option.

HAL will still be involved, they are easily India's most capable aviation player and will be providing sub-assemblies and components to the Dassualt-Indian partner consotrium who will be conducting all final assembly and outputting the finished product.

To be honest, the human capital exsists in India that anyone with deep enough pockets can set up any such plant in India and it will be a success (both Dassualt and Reliance have DEEP pockets). Look around to see numerous examples of success. TATA has its hands full with the C-295 production and many other deals on its plate (S-92, 787, P-8, F-18 etc) so it is right to get another giant in the aerospace game set up in India, I would have preffered L&T but Reliance are okay. Dassualt will ultimately be liable for quality of the finished product and timelines so they will ensure any company they tie up with is producing the goods.

 

[anant_s]

Do you see the level of garbage floating around about this deal? It was last week I was being tagged and taunted by numerous Pakistani members when the BS news about 36 being the final figure was reported (was it TOI? I can't remember...).

He who laughs last....

There is SO much more going on behind the scenes that we aren't aware of as outsiders.

if u recall we discussed that the 36 figure makes little sense and now as the report suggests we might end up getting not only more fighters but also critical technology that couldn't be foreseen in original MMRCA deal. it actually would end up benefitting Indian aerospace industry immensely.

 

[khakhi_chaddi]

All the people who think Rafale will be made in India are fools. Dassault can make 36 fighter plane in France per year without any capital investment. And people expect them to make Rafales in India for tiny order of 36 planes. Firm order of 200 planes with budget of USD 50 billion in commitment needed to set up production facility in India.

 

[Blue Marlin]

An F-35 buy for India would be very complicated- would India join the program itself? What level of parntership would it be offered/interested in?

For the numbers of future carrier fighters required MRO/service centres would have to be set up in India.

The F-35 program is a bloody mess and India would do well to steer clear of it, the French aren't looking for a 5th gen fighter for the foreseeable future which ensures the Rafale will be upgraded extensively long into the future- India will be hitching itself to the right wagon if it got involved there IMHO.


HAL will still be involved, they are easily India's most capable aviation player and will be providing sub-assemblies and components to the Dassualt-Indian partner consotrium who will be conducting all final assembly and outputting the finished product.

To be honest, the human capital exsists in India that anyone with deep enough pockets can set up any such plant in India and it will be a success (both Dassualt and Reliance have DEEP pockets). Look around to see numerous examples of success. TATA has its hands full with the C-295 production and many other deals on its plate (S-92, 787, P-8, F-18 etc) so it is right to get another giant in the aerospace game set up in India, I would have preffered L&T but Reliance are okay. Dassualt will ultimately be liable for quality of the finished product and timelines so they will ensure any company they tie up with is producing the goods.

your right on the aspect that another player does need to be introduced, but i just have doubts and they are best left with professionals. BUT im not saying Reliance should not take part but it should be something like Reliance builds sub sections along with HAL whilst Tata completes them and Dassault inspects and signs them off.