In boost for 'Make in India', Dassault may manufacture Rafale fighter aircraft in India

[Mamsalaphala]

It not about money. Basically India lack the sophisticated industries to produce production line to support the whole Rafale production. If you want to be 100% made in India. That will include set up of supplier chain line industries, not just ask Dassault to produce a production line will do. It is something money cannot buy in short time.

Oh you meant can IAF afford to wait till 2022 to get more Rafale. I misunderstood.

The initial production line will be Assembly and that should not take more than a few years. my guess will be 2019 for the first Rafale to roll out from India if all goes well.

You do realize India has been Manufacturing fighter jets from 1950's, right ?

 

[PARIKRAMA]

@anant_s Thank You for tagging me. Indeed its a nice development. @Abingdonboy
I have written in the rafale sticky about finally DM MP agreeing to talk with PM Modi and FM Jaitley on MII part as now its clear that IAF and IN both are wanting Rfale deals. @halloweene had said the deal murmurs was about some Neuron UCAV tech transfer to Indian UCAV program. Now its more as even some tech for LCA will be shared. That is indeed a very good development as we are marching to make Tejas a far more potent bird beyond already strong Mark1 version.

As we all have said 36 is the beginning, this article points in that direction. I am very happy and delighted the way in last 6 months post PM modi announcement of 36 jet purchase intentions, the way Indian negotiators are bargaining hard for a good deal.

People can still criticise and say high price but a quick review we see,
1. 50% offset for initial 36
2. 2 bases of operations for initial 36
3. Whole infrastructure set up
4. Total cost of ownership for 40 years
5. Indian weapons Astra BVR assimilation
6. Potential Third line of production (first 2 in Merignac)in India under MII
7. Falcon jet parts or whole jet production
8. Tech transfer for LCA and Indian UCAV program
9. Setups with Reliance Defense systems, Samtel and Bharat Electronics & others as partners in the MII project
10. Weapon maker MBDA could also transfer some key works to Indian production

If we can successfully get this deal through, we are clearly putting a benchmark for other deals in IA/IN/IAF to have something better as package as India wont sign a contract if terms benefiting her are inferior. This itself is a very big win and showcases our arrival in global arena with power of buyer versus power of supplier negotiations tactics.

See these for example

"It will not be possible to roll out any of the 36 fighters being acquired by India from the production line as it would take time to set up but future orders, including exports, will be fulfilled with the new line," a person involved in the discussions has told ET. "At most, the final painting of the last ten aircraft to be delivered to India could be carried out at the Indian assembly line. This itself is a very high technology process as the fighter has a special anti-radar coat," the person added.

Besides the joint production facilities in India, the French side is also set to transfer some key technologies to DRDO that would benefit the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) project. A complete list of the technology to be transferred is being finalised but would include several systems to make the LCA more effective.

Technology to be transferred includes the air intake system for the fighter, an undercarriage for the naval variant of the LCA, cutting edge radar absorbing painting technology as well as an integrated production line software and management system for the fighter aircraft.

While the main Rafale contract is likely to be signed this financial year, as was reported by ET, a separate contract for armament systems will be signed at a later date with French company MBDA. A partnership for transfer of technology and production could be inked with the Defence Research and Development Laboratory (DRDL) that specialises in advanced armaments.

Engineer-General Stephane Reb, Director of the International Directorate of the DGA (General Directorate for Armament) of the French Ministry of Defence is in New Delhi this week to finalise the inter-governmental agreement draft that is likely to be signed before January 26 when French President Francois Hollande will visit India as the Chief Guest at the Republic Day Parade.

Excellent news finally.

Tagging few more folks with the interesting development news
@zebra7 @Taygibay @Ind4Ever @MilSpec @AUSTERLITZ @kurup @GURU DUTT @SR-91 @kaykay

 

[Srinivas]

Are you asking if the IAF can afford Rafale in 2022 ?

Indian GDP will be between 5 - 7 Trillion $ by then.

His worry is if India knows the technology it can challenge china !

So he is advising us to only buy Rafales, Chinese

 

[Mamsalaphala]

His worry is if India knows the technology it can challenge china !

So he is advising us to only buy Rafales, Chinese

Of late the Chinese attacks on India by 50 cent soldiers have come down considerably.

I suspect they have orders from the top to tone down the attacks. This means Indo-China is working towards a common goal.

Either that or the PDF Admins have been strict on 50 cent trolls, but that seems unlikely.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

This is great news

So we will have MORE Rafales after all and Technology Transfer for LCA

 

[egodoc222]

It not about money. Basically India lack the sophisticated industries to produce production line to support the whole Rafale production. If you want to be 100% made in India. That will include set up of supplier chain line industries, not just ask Dassault to produce a production line will do. It is something money cannot buy in short time.

As the article says...all the 36 will be bought off the shelf...the production line or assembly will be for only future orders of rafale or dassault falcon!!!

 

[GURU DUTT]

NEW DELHI: India's largest-ever military deal is likely to bring in big business for the private sector with the French side looking to set up a production centre for the Rafale fighter aircraft as well as a low-cost executive jet in India, besides sharing vital aircraft technology for the indigenous Tejas project.
View attachment 275177
Officials familiar with the project have told ETthat major partners for this 'Make in India' project are currently being identified by the French side and are likely to include Anil Ambani's Reliance Defence Systems, Noida-based Samtel and Bharat Electronics. These officials, both Indian and French, spoke on the condition they not be identified.
View attachment 275176
Spokespersons of the Anil Ambani-led Reliance Group told ET "there is no development". Officials on the French side told ET, on condition of anonymity, that the agreement between Rafale and an Indian partner will be on the lines of the 2012 agreement between the French company and the Mukesh Ambani-led Reliance Industries.
The NDA government had reformatted the UPA government deal and ordered 36 aircraft, instead of 126. The Rafale fighter deal, which will bring in at least $4.5 billion into 'Make in India' projects as per the contract being negotiated, is set to involve a third production line for the aircraft in India, French officials have told ET.

While two lines for the fighter are currently active in France at the same facility, a third line in India would take care of export orders for the fighters and also possible future orders by the Indian Navy and Air Force. The line would also support the production of a low-cost variant of the 'Falcon' executive jet for the Indian and Asian markets.

"It will not be possible to roll out any of the 36 fighters being acquired by India from the production line as it would take time to set up but future orders, including exports, will be fulfilled with the new line," a person involved in the discussions has told ET. "At most, the final painting of the last ten aircraft to be delivered to India could be carried out at the Indian assembly line. This itself is a very high technology process as the fighter has a special anti-radar coat," the person added.
Besides the joint production facilities in India, the French side is also set to transfer some key technologies to DRDO that would benefit the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) project. A complete list of the technology to be transferred is being finalised but would include several systems to make the LCA more effective.
Technology to be transferred includes the air intake system for the fighter, an undercarriage for the naval variant of the LCA, cutting edge radar absorbing painting technology as well as an integrated production line software and management system for the fighter aircraft.
While the main Rafale contract is likely to be signed this financial year, as was reported by ET, a separate contract for armament systems will be signed at a later date with French company MBDA. A partnership for transfer of technology and production could be inked with the Defence Research and Development Laboratory (DRDL) that specialises in advanced armaments.

Engineer-General Stephane Reb, Director of the International Directorate of the DGA (General Directorate for Armament) of the French Ministry of Defence is in New Delhi this week to finalise the inter-governmental agreement draft that is likely to be signed before January 26 when French President Francois Hollande will visit India as the Chief Guest at the Republic Day Parade.

In boost for 'Make in India', Dassault may manufacture Rafale fighter aircraft in India - The Economic Times
@Abingdonboy @Taygibay @PARIKRAMA

Proof of the pudding is in eating it ..... lets see when it happens too early to say anything yet

 

[Echo_419]

It not about money. Basically India lack the sophisticated industries to produce production line to support the whole Rafale production. If you want to be 100% made in India. That will include set up of supplier chain line industries, not just ask Dassault to produce a production line will do. It is something money cannot buy in short time.

That is why we have a offset clause so that a % of the contract value is invested back into the Indian industry

 

[nik141993]

This deal is a long nightmare hope it end in next few months

 

[Ind4Ever]

@anant_s Thank You for tagging me. Indeed its a nice development. @Abingdonboy
I have written in the rafale sticky about finally DM MP agreeing to talk with PM Modi and FM Jaitley on MII part as now its clear that IAF and IN both are wanting Rfale deals. @halloweene had said the deal murmurs was about some Neuron UCAV tech transfer to Indian UCAV program. Now its more as even some tech for LCA will be shared. That is indeed a very good development as we are marching to make Tejas a far more potent bird beyond already strong Mark1 version.

As we all have said 36 is the beginning, this article points in that direction. I am very happy and delighted the way in last 6 months post PM modi announcement of 36 jet purchase intentions, the way Indian negotiators are bargaining hard for a good deal.

People can still criticise and say high price but a quick review we see,
1. 50% offset for initial 36
2. 2 bases of operations for initial 36
3. Whole infrastructure set up
4. Total cost of ownership for 40 years
5. Indian weapons Astra BVR assimilation
6. Potential Third line of production (first 2 in Merignac)in India under MII
7. Falcon jet parts or whole jet production
8. Tech transfer for LCA and Indian UCAV program
9. Setups with Reliance Defense systems, Samtel and Bharat Electronics & others as partners in the MII project
10. Weapon maker MBDA could also transfer some key works to Indian production

If we can successfully get this deal through, we are clearly putting a benchmark for other deals in IA/IN/IAF to have something better as package as India wont sign a contract if terms benefiting her are inferior. This itself is a very big win and showcases our arrival in global arena with power of buyer versus power of supplier negotiations tactics.

See these for example

"It will not be possible to roll out any of the 36 fighters being acquired by India from the production line as it would take time to set up but future orders, including exports, will be fulfilled with the new line," a person involved in the discussions has told ET. "At most, the final painting of the last ten aircraft to be delivered to India could be carried out at the Indian assembly line. This itself is a very high technology process as the fighter has a special anti-radar coat," the person added.

Besides the joint production facilities in India, the French side is also set to transfer some key technologies to DRDO that would benefit the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) project. A complete list of the technology to be transferred is being finalised but would include several systems to make the LCA more effective.

Technology to be transferred includes the air intake system for the fighter, an undercarriage for the naval variant of the LCA, cutting edge radar absorbing painting technology as well as an integrated production line software and management system for the fighter aircraft.

While the main Rafale contract is likely to be signed this financial year, as was reported by ET, a separate contract for armament systems will be signed at a later date with French company MBDA. A partnership for transfer of technology and production could be inked with the Defence Research and Development Laboratory (DRDL) that specialises in advanced armaments.

Engineer-General Stephane Reb, Director of the International Directorate of the DGA (General Directorate for Armament) of the French Ministry of Defence is in New Delhi this week to finalise the inter-governmental agreement draft that is likely to be signed before January 26 when French President Francois Hollande will visit India as the Chief Guest at the Republic Day Parade.

Excellent news finally.

Tagging few more folks with the interesting development news
@zebra7 @Taygibay @Ind4Ever @MilSpec @AUSTERLITZ @kurup @GURU DUTT @SR-91 @kaykay

Much expected one. But looks like we got more than we thought out of this deal. Really appreciate France for sharing RAM coating.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Much expected one. But looks like we got more than we thought out of this deal. Really appreciate France for sharing RAM coating.

Look at this bro besides RAM coating which itself is an awesome development.

Technology to be transferred includes the air intake system for the fighter, an undercarriage for the naval variant of the LCA, cutting edge radar absorbing painting technology as well as an integrated production line software and management system for the fighter aircraft.

I hope we upgrade LCA more beyond powerful Mark 1 version as i firmly see it crossing 300 in numbers over years . Also i see dedicated at least 100 such birds for IN role too.The best part is Dassault helping us with N-LCA program too as it has got excellent experience via Rafale - M program.

I think the indian negotiators deserve a honest applause and appreciation . They did negotiate hard and did not leak any information to public/reporters. Thats why finally this Manu Pubby report shows a completely drastic makeover pictures over so much negative portrayal by many media reports which also targeted Russian FGFA (some powers and paid media tried hard to break India away from Russia as well as make good friendship sour over MMRCA with France)

With Putin and Hollande coming together for ISIS bombing, India seems to have got the magical window of opportunity. The shopping bag will be occupied by awesome stuff from Russia and France.

After all its Black Friday Sales !!!

 

[anant_s]

@PARIKRAMA
hi!
two things that stand out in this news is

1. it looks IN too is considering Rafales and there is now some merit that government is open to considering IAF demand of more Rafale at later dates. we might end up having a number in vicinity of 190 as @Abingdonboy has maintained.
2. it looks like India is establishing a template for future manufacture of 2-3 types of fighter jets in parallel. i find some similarity with how multiple submarine programs are proposed to be managed by public and private shipyards. with this in practice i suppose it will create a healthy competitions between manufacturers to deliver on time. it will also give government flexibility to decide funding.

interesting times ahead surely.

 

[Mamsalaphala]

Look at this bro besides RAM coating which itself is an awesome development.
I hope we upgrade LCA more beyond powerful Mark 1 version as i firmly see it crossing 300 in numbers over years . Also i see dedicated at least 100 such birds for IN role too.The best part is Dassault helping us with N-LCA program too as it has got excellent experience via Rafale - M program.

I think the indian negotiators deserve a honest applause and appreciation . They did negotiate hard and did not leak any information to public/reporters. Thats why finally this Manu Pubby report shows a completely drastic makeover pictures over so much negative portrayal by many media reports which also targeted Russian FGFA (some powers and paid media tried hard to break India away from Russia as well as make good friendship sour over MMRCA with France)

With Putin and Hollande coming together for ISIS bombing, India seems to have got the magical window of opportunity. The shopping bag will be occupied by awesome stuff from Russia and France.

After all its Black Friday Sales !!!

Lets not get carried away. All of this could still be a rumour.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

@PARIKRAMA
hi!
two things that stand out in this news is

1. it looks IN too is considering Rafales and there is now some merit that government is open to considering IAF demand of more Rafale at later dates. we might end up having a number in vicinity of 190 as @Abingdonboy has maintained.
2. it looks like India is establishing a template for future manufacture of 2-3 types of fighter jets in parallel. i find some similarity with how multiple submarine programs are proposed to be managed by public and private shipyards. with this in practice i suppose it will create a healthy competitions between manufacturers to deliver on time. it will also give government flexibility to decide funding.

interesting times ahead surely.

Yes Sir no doubt about it. I had heard clearly that IN was considering French Dassault Rafale M over F35/F18ASH for IAC2 if applied with EMALS as existing birds wont fit such a system. Rafale M won over due to two points . One being that joint exercises between 2 ACCs have shown the different approaches and missions which had impressed IN who is mighty happy with MIg 29K upgraded ones at present but clearly felt that changing times needs more advanced birds with longer timelines to service us uptill 2060 type timelines. Secondly a MII means local production which is always the first vital interest of IN. Of course barring F35, F18ASH could also be produced in India but the setup cost for Dassault would be done already as IAF is also a customer something which makes more sense and attractive for IN.
The numbers are gonna swell up and will be much beyond 6 squadrons which ACM Raha had said. It will be close to original MMRCA -(126+63=189) types for IAF but in tranches. IN i see them playing with at least 45-60 jets for Rafale M

Future jets for India besides sureshot LCA Mark 1 advancement with newer tech looks like Rafale and FGFA (two phases with first being perhaps an off the shelf purchase of present PAKFA stage 1 with present engine and FGFA which is PAKFA Stage 2 development based, assembled in HAL with 5th Gen engines).
The third project seems to be the mystery. If technology from Dassault can be there for LCA, and same technology can be used in say AMCA with derivatives from FGFA project we are looking at a 5th Gen bird with far advanced capabilities. But timeline will be an issue as both Dassault based tech and FGFA based derivatives needs a bit more time for assimilation into Indian MIC. If we can push AMCA to 2030-2040 timelines we can reap maximum benefits via these 3 program advancements and technologies (LCA, Rafale and FGFA) which can then give synergistic benefits to our AMCA

Lets not get carried away. All of this could still be a rumour.

True words Sir.. Hope all this turns out into a reality.

 

[Gen Padmanabhan]

@PARIKRAMA
hi!
two things that stand out in this news is

1. it looks IN too is considering Rafales and there is now some merit that government is open to considering IAF demand of more Rafale at later dates. we might end up having a number in vicinity of 190 as @Abingdonboy has maintained.
2. it looks like India is establishing a template for future manufacture of 2-3 types of fighter jets in parallel. i find some similarity with how multiple submarine programs are proposed to be managed by public and private shipyards. with this in practice i suppose it will create a healthy competitions between manufacturers to deliver on time. it will also give government flexibility to decide funding.

interesting times ahead surely.

The IAC-2 atleast 12-14 years away from commission, lets see which new solutions become available.