Imran Khan & The Future of Pakistan-India Relations

[Pakistani E]

To a businessman money is the only thing that counts. Money is his god. He is a greedy capitalist who has no honor or principles.

Things like Pakistan's borders, religious distinctions, plight of Kashmiris, etc are non-issues for businessmen. They want to make their money. And if Indian tourism will contribute to increased profits then so be it. To hell with Kashmir & two-nation theory.

That is the nature of capitalism.

I'm not sure what IK's agenda is and why he is bending so low to placate Indians while Kashmir's women are being raped and their men being executed and dumped in unmarked mass graves.
But its looking more and more that he is under the influence of circles who are concerned with only making money.

I agree with you. I don't want Indian money in exchange for Jammu and Kashmir and Kashmiris. I don't personally know any Pakistani who would accept such a condition either. If IK thinks he can fool us by saying our economy is crap just because we're not trading with India, then he is quite deluded. India and Pakistan can never have a normal relationship until and unless the Kashmir issue is resolved to the satisfaction of all three major stakeholders.

I honestly don't know whether IK is naive, or he's really starting to believe the nonsense that Pakistan's salvation lies in accepting Indian hegemony. Because that's what will happen once the Kashmir issue is put in the back burner, and our economies become intertwined.

All I see from him is constant appeasing and bending over backwards. India is not even serious about resolving this issue. Every time the government talks about Kashmir, India hits back saying Jammu and Kashmir is an internal issue.

Imran Khan should concentrate on the economy and fixing our country. The Indians only respect strength, look at their dealings with China for example. They are far more cautious in their approach, and more amiable in their responses to the Chinese. IK does not need to go out of his way to make overtures to the Indians, he was elected to make Pakistan corruption free, and bring in FDI etc. These things do not need require extending a hand of friendship to India in the current circumstances. I am still baffled by his approach to India.

No Pakistan PM has any freedom or role in India policy. It is futile to expect anything from Imaran who is not capable of going against PA's wish.

PA comes from the people. The PA can't really make any decisions regarding India without taking in to considerations the will of the people. You can continue to think what you like. But IK or even PA, cannot change their policy regarding India on their own whims.

 

[Desert Fox]

I don't personally know any Pakistani who would accept such a condition either.

Unfortunately there's some even on this forum who would.

Social media generation, they live for social media, Bollywood and other tamasha and kanjarkhana. They don't identify with Pakistan ideologically but only as some fad for when jashn-e-Azadi celebrations take place. It's all about having fun, but when the going gets tough these people will be more concerned about their Indian followers on social media, or their business potential from Indian tourism.

I honestly don't know whether IK is naive, or he's really starting to believe the nonsense that Pakistan's salvation lies in accepting Indian hegemony

I wonder the same.

Because that's what will happen once the Kashmir issue is put in the back burner, and our economies become intertwined.

This is what people don't understand. Once economies become intertwined then so will other factors as well, only separated by a border that would be rendered superficial by then, and at that point we might as well become one united country again with Indians.

All I see from him is constant appeasing and bending over backwards. India is not even serious about resolving this issue. Every time the government talks about Kashmir, India hits back saying Jammu and Kashmir is an internal issue.

Its embarrassing to say the least as they continue to throw them back in his face.

If only he could put that much effort in resolving the dam issue which actually does affect every Pakistani. But he's more concerned for some business class.

IK does not need to go out of his way to make overtures to the Indians, he was elected to make Pakistan corruption free, and bring in FDI etc. These things do not need require extending a hand of friendship to India in the current circumstances. I am still baffled by his approach to India.

There's so many better alternatives. We can get tourism from East Asian countries like Japan, Korea, Indonesia, Malaysia, from Central Asian Republics, from Arab countries like Lebanon, Morocco, Algeria, from Russia and Western/Eastern Europe. All that's required is relaxation of visa process for these countries and an aggressive PR campaign for tourism in these countries.

You can continue to think what you like. But IK or even PA, cannot change their policy regarding India on their own whims.

I wouldn't be too sure of that because this is being done in small dosages:

First it will be non-resident Indians. Then they will extend it to resident Indians, and then finally straight up visa-free travel and cross border travel. All in the name of "but it's good for the economy, we need the money from tourism, wer're all just the same people".

 

[shahbaz baig]

Here is what IK wants

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/imra...n-india-relations.598946/page-4#post-11129748

And decide either we should give a chance in order to normalize relation with india especially while presenting occupied kashmir's issues, problems, atrocities at international forums. (This is what IK is doing right now). OR we should accept international border controversy, accept Indian hegemony blab blah that OP is smoking in this thread.

For me IK is on Right track & doing excellent job for foreign affairs which you need to understand, he met with Army chief & discussed about visa policy and after green signal, they announced it. But people here are taking this announcement in a wrong direction like OP's unwarranted wishes.

@Desert Fox @Sher Shah Awan @Alternatiiv @MultaniGuy

We have to believe on Govt, Army & agencies.

 

[MultaniGuy]

That's mostly our fault for egging Kashmiris on when in fact they could be living peacefully in India. We gave them false hope.

There's already close to 200 million Muslims in India.

I honestly don't understand why some Pakistanis are still obsessed with Kashmir.

The world is bigger than Pakistan-Kashmir-India situation.

We Pakistanis need to broaden our horizons and look to make money because money is important.

Unfortunately it took until IK to make any progress in this regard. Though I will give credit to Musharraf for the progress this country made under him.

Kashmir is too costly and we are broke. We need money. Kashmiris will have to accept the reality of India.

You do not sound Pakistani. Almost all Pakistanis want to fight for the rights of Kashmiris.

I disagree with you here strongly.

That's mostly our fault for egging Kashmiris on when in fact they could be living peacefully in India. We gave them false hope.

There's already close to 200 million Muslims in India.

I honestly don't understand why some Pakistanis are still obsessed with Kashmir.

The world is bigger than Pakistan-Kashmir-India situation.

We Pakistanis need to broaden our horizons and look to make money because money is important.

Unfortunately it took until IK to make any progress in this regard. Though I will give credit to Musharraf for the progress this country made under him.

Kashmir is too costly and we are broke. We need money. Kashmiris will have to accept the reality of India.

Sorry, but your arguments are absurd.

Even Jinnah tried to be the ambassador of Muslim-Hindu unity.

But the Indian National Congress showed their true lights when it came to the electorates issues.

Do you even know why partition happened? Because Muslims in the majority provinces would have been denied their rights.

@Desert Fox
@Alternatiiv

Your views on @Hassan_Ishtiaq ?

I strongly disagree with him. His views are absurd.

What about all the Ghazis who died in Kashmir? What about them?

Sorry @Hassan_Ishtiaq , but what you are saying is treasonous.

Unfortunately there's some even on this forum who would.

Social media generation, they live for social media, Bollywood and other tamasha and kanjarkhana. They don't identify with Pakistan ideologically but only as some fad for when jashn-e-Azadi celebrations take place. It's all about having fun, but when the going gets tough these people will be more concerned about their Indian followers on social media, or their business potential from Indian tourism.

I wonder the same.

This is what people don't understand. Once economies become intertwined then so will other factors as well, only separated by a border that would be rendered superficial by then, and at that point we might as well become one united country again with Indians.

Its embarrassing to say the least as they continue to throw them back in his face.

If only he could put that much effort in resolving the dam issue which actually does affect every Pakistani. But he's more concerned for some business class.

There's so many better alternatives. We can get tourism from East Asian countries like Japan, Korea, Indonesia, Malaysia, from Central Asian Republics, from Arab countries like Lebanon, Morocco, Algeria, from Russia and Western/Eastern Europe. All that's required is relaxation of visa process for these countries and an aggressive PR campaign for tourism in these countries.


I wouldn't be too sure of that because this is being done in small dosages:

First it will be non-resident Indians. Then they will extend it to resident Indians, and then finally straight up visa-free travel and cross border travel. All in the name of "but it's good for the economy, we need the money from tourism, wer're all just the same people".

I too want good relations with Republic of India. But the Kashmir dispute needs to be resolved first.

Till then we should not trade with India, or at least keep it to a minimum.

@Hassan_Ishtiaq

I disagree with you again, Pakistanis and Indians are not the same peoples.

Unfortunately there's some even on this forum who would.

Social media generation, they live for social media, Bollywood and other tamasha and kanjarkhana. They don't identify with Pakistan ideologically but only as some fad for when jashn-e-Azadi celebrations take place. It's all about having fun, but when the going gets tough these people will be more concerned about their Indian followers on social media, or their business potential from Indian tourism.

I wonder the same.

This is what people don't understand. Once economies become intertwined then so will other factors as well, only separated by a border that would be rendered superficial by then, and at that point we might as well become one united country again with Indians.

Its embarrassing to say the least as they continue to throw them back in his face.

If only he could put that much effort in resolving the dam issue which actually does affect every Pakistani. But he's more concerned for some business class.

There's so many better alternatives. We can get tourism from East Asian countries like Japan, Korea, Indonesia, Malaysia, from Central Asian Republics, from Arab countries like Lebanon, Morocco, Algeria, from Russia and Western/Eastern Europe. All that's required is relaxation of visa process for these countries and an aggressive PR campaign for tourism in these countries.


I wouldn't be too sure of that because this is being done in small dosages:

First it will be non-resident Indians. Then they will extend it to resident Indians, and then finally straight up visa-free travel and cross border travel. All in the name of "but it's good for the economy, we need the money from tourism, wer're all just the same people".

lol economies are not made on tourism.

Economies are made on manufacturing and services.

Tourism is just a bonus.

We seriously need to fix our country.

 

[khansaheeb]

To a businessman money is the only thing that counts. Money is his god. He is a greedy capitalist who has no honor or principles.

Things like Pakistan's borders, religious distinctions, plight of Kashmiris, etc are non-issues for businessmen. They want to make their money. And if Indian tourism will contribute to increased profits then so be it. To hell with Kashmir & two-nation theory.

That is the nature of capitalism.

I'm not sure what IK's agenda is and why he is bending so low to placate Indians while Kashmir's women are being raped and their men being executed and dumped in unmarked mass graves.
But its looking more and more that he is under the influence of circles who are concerned with only making money.

@Psychic @LeGenD @Metanoia @Sher Shah Awan @Sami Ansari


This is the iPhone generation. They only care about social media statuses and latest Bollywood trends.


Well said.


IK, PTI and some of their supporters, or rather many of their supporters, are certainly acting like they are more concerned about money than the plight of Kashmiris.

We need to find out who is behind the rise of IK and whether there is a hindjew connection.

 

[shahbaz baig]

We need to find out who is behind the rise of IK and whether there is a hindjew connection.

This is exactly what enemy wants you think about by using fake News, funded media.

Israel airplane = fake News
Pakistani Jew News = fake news
IOk as IB = controversy

Pakistanis don't trust the fake news media

 

[Corona]

I'm sure you can figure it out.

Hmmm not really. We're pretty alright in my opinion. Enlighten me.

 

[Lincoln]

You do not sound Pakistani. Almost all Pakistanis want to fight for the rights of Kashmiris.

I disagree with you here strongly.



Sorry, but your arguments are absurd.

Even Jinnah tried to be the ambassador of Muslim-Hindu unity.

But the Indian National Congress showed their true lights when it came to the electorates issues.

Do you even know why partition happened? Because Muslims in the majority provinces would have been denied their rights.

@Desert Fox
@Alternatiiv

Your views on @Hassan_Ishtiaq ?

I strongly disagree with him. His views are absurd.

What about all the Ghazis who died in Kashmir? What about them?

Sorry @Hassan_Ishtiaq , but what you are saying is treasonous.


I too want good relations with Republic of India. But the Kashmir dispute needs to be resolved first.

Till then we should not trade with India, or at least keep it to a minimum.

@Hassan_Ishtiaq

I disagree with you again, Pakistanis and Indians are not the same peoples.


lol economies are not made on tourism.

Economies are made on manufacturing and services.

Tourism is just a bonus.

We seriously need to fix our country.

He is simply delusional who is telling us to see beyond Pakistan-Kashmir-India Spectrum but himself cannot see beyond tourism from India, maybe if he had any brain cells left, he would've bothered to check how little India contributes to international tourism anyways, so his shameless anything-for-money argument dies there too.

 

[Psychic]

To a businessman money is the only thing that counts. Money is his god. He is a greedy capitalist who has no honor or

principles.

Things like Pakistan's borders, religious distinctions, plight of Kashmiris, etc are non-issues for businessmen. They want to make their money. And if Indian tourism will

contribute to increased profits then so be it. To hell with Kashmir & two-nation theory.

That is the nature of capitalism.

I'm not sure what IK's agenda is and why he is bending so low to placate Indians while Kashmir's women are being raped and their men being executed and dumped in unmarked mass

graves.
But its looking more and more that he is under the influence of circles who are concerned with only making money.




PTI and some of their supporters, or rather many of their supporters, are certainly acting like they are more concerned about money than the plight of Kashmiris.

Ik supporters, and many others most of whom are liberal but some are religious as well do not support any form of resistance to Indian hegemony. Some are hypnotized by bollywood, many are mental slaves of the Indian narrative, while others have deluded themselves into believing that partition was unnecessary and that they'd have been chums with likes of Jogi Adityanath while the religious ones who criticize Kashmiri struggle were perfectly described by Iqbal as "Mullah ko hai Hind mein sajday ki ijazat, naadaan ye samajhta hai k Islam hai azad".

We are not man enough to proudly own the Kashmiri freedom struggle---
Our apologetic tone is in a stark contrast to how Iran openly supports anti-Israel groups

Can you imagine a country allowing her enemy to fence a territory she considers rightfully as her own? Well our coward leaders allowed the Indians to fence the LOC which choked mujahideen supply lines---and the armed struggle which was at it's peak was effectively killed by our own leaders in 2003 cease fire. Could Musharraf have been any more shameless than that?

We fear Amrika more than we fear Allah---The result is in front of us---The world respects power, not weakness. The world could care less if a hundred thousand more Kashmiris would have been killed or 10000 more women molested, India is a big market for their goods after all, why loose it over a few thousand Muslims...the world doesn't give two hoots to "peaceful campaign for freedom"? Freedom has to be earned through blood, sweat and sacrifice, it is not handed to you on a platter. That is unless you happen to be a Christian living in East Timor or Darfur.

There is no so-called peaceful solution, the only way to liberate Kashmir is through jihad---The Pakistani who thinks that talks will result in the resolution of Kashmir dispute must be really daft to believe that India will ever squander any part of Kashmir without a fight. We have already tried and failed to make India talk about Kashmir
whenever India's military position was strong in the valley. Talks can only be conducted once you hold some sort of bargaining power for a quid pro quo to take place. In this case talks will only happen once Kashmiris have turned Kashmir into a quagmire for the occupying Indian forces, making the price of occupation crushingly high. There is only one solution, that is the gun solution---the sooner we realize this the better. Our conferences, protests, long marches, speeches at UN are not going to free Kashmir, but alas we are too thick to grasp the harsh realities of this world.
In this day and age, it is not unusual for a country to offer cover/overt military assistance to rebel groups operating in areas under enemy control---recent examples are Russian arming of pro-Russians in Ukraine and Syrian groups armed by other nations and the assistance Iran provides to several anti-Israel groups. Even the Western countries were openly arming Kurdish groups which Turkey considers as terrorists.

Take a look at this

Yesterday's terrorists, today's formal party to war. Back in 2001, 196 nations decided that they would end this "terrorist regime".
When the Taliban tried to talk their way out in 2002, they were branded as terrorists and their offer rejected.
The world only respects power. First phase, "terrorists". Second phase, "insurgents". Third phase, "we gotta talk to them they're a legitimate party to this conflict". That's how things work.

And you mentioned LeGend---don't bother. I had conversed with him about a similar topic in another thread. As per his views, armed Kashmiri freedom struggle is terrorism as he wholly accepts US narrative in all such conflicts. He considers droning, CIA assassinations, torture sites, carpet bombings, state suppression of freedom movements etc all as perfectly legitimate methods of waging wars while in the same breath declaring guerrilla warfare as illegal and cowardly. He wants Muslims to abandon those "cowardly" methods of warfare, assemble in an open ground and offer Mubarizat (duel) to enemy champions meanwhile the enemy brings forth an AC-130 as it's champion.

I don't personally know any Pakistani who would accept such a condition either.

There are tons of such Pakistanis---One happens to be a close friend of mine and surprisingly a very practicing Muslim ---strangest thing is that he talks very emotionally about Palestine but on Kashmir, he couldn't care less. He is anti-1947partition and anti-Pak army as well, and believes that Pak army couldn't do jack against Indian army. At one discussion he even labelled IA dead as shaheed, then ammended his statement and labelled the Muslim dead of IA as shaheed...Then said that a large number of IA is Muslim ....He is a lot into bollywood, other than bollywood, he is practicing religious person who never misses a prayer....quite a surprising mentality he has....

And did you forget what Shahid Afridi said not a long time ago? That was not the first time I heard such statements about Kashmir tho.

I honestly don't know whether IK is naive, or he's really starting to believe the nonsense that Pakistan's salvation lies in accepting Indian hegemony. Because that's what will happen once the Kashmir issue is put in the back burner, and our economies become intertwined.

All I see from him is constant appeasing and bending over backwards. India is not even serious about resolving this issue. Every time the government talks about Kashmir, India hits back saying Jammu and Kashmir is an internal issue.

Imran Khan holds a soft corner for India. In fact, all of our celebrities which include cricketers have a soft corner for India as they have many friends there.

There was one interview which he gave to an Indian TV quite some time ago (Zardari era), in which he said that Pakistan should forget Kashmir and focus on internal issues...If some one can dig that up....

First it will be non-resident Indians. Then they will extend it to resident Indians, and then finally straight up visa-free travel and cross border travel. All in the name of "but it's good for the economy, we need the money from tourism, wer're all just the same people".

@Sher Shah Awan SO far, this has been a one-way street....Indian fims screened in Pakistan, Indian channels bieng aired in Pakistan....India on the other hand, denied Pakistani TV channels the permission to broadcast in India. There are some very pro-India Pakistanis who allowed all of this.