Important for each other – Pakistan and Israel

[Peaceful Civilian]

India broke us in 1971 war, they have occupied kashmir, but we still recognize india as country . Why not Israel Now??
Even we Never have direct conflict with Israel instead we cooperated each other during soveit afghan war, then f16s spare parts during sanction times when we were unable to fly.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

For anyone interested, statements concerning Palestine and Israel from Allama Iqbal and Quaid e Azam.

http://www.allamaiqbal.com/publications/journals/review/oct91/5.htm

 

[Solomon2]

I don’t have to prove the assertion, as it is a well known statement given by him.

Now you're backtracking.

You don't need to call me names - that demeans you, not I. Just come up with the reference - if you really have one.

 

[Peaceful Civilian]

I have no personal vendetta with Israel. My problem with them is this;

1. The Occupation of the third holiest site in Islam. The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) talked about the site of Al Aqsa and referred to it on parity with Makkah and Medinah. Islam does not have two holy sites, it has three. For as long as there has been Islam Muslims have fought for control of that site - just because we have faced defeat recently, doesn't mean we have faced defeat forever.

2. The inhumanity of the treatment of Palestinians at the hands of Israel. I will speak up for injustice everywhere it occurs, as an individual that is my right. If I was the leader of our country, I would of course balance that with the right my people had over me (a leaders duty is to serve his people and their interests). However I'm just a normal person, as such I am thankfully free to stand up to injustice. So I do. I would have done the same with Nazi Germany had I been alive at that time.

I honestly believe if the majority of the worlds countries put people ahead of profits for a moment and just supported the BDS movement - Israel would make peace with the Palestinians. There is no need for the loss of lives, just the loss of money. Unfortunately as we know - in our time, humanity has no value.

If Israel would withdraw to the Pre-67 borders, then I have no problem with Israel. Some people will argue that India is also occupying Muslim lands, yet we recognise India. To them I say - we do not recognise the illegal occupation of India. Furthermore India has been a reality for millennia, this is just it's latest form. Israel came about recently and it's borders are disputed. Our nation has agreed to recognise the borders it agrees with the Palestinian people, who's land it currently occupies.

As for the great talk of diplomatic rivers of honey and milk once we recognise Israel - anyone who believes that needs to dip their head in a river for a moment to help them wake up.

Remember the treatment they displayed to Musa (AS) who freed them from the tyranny of Pharoah. They worshipped a calf when he climbed a mountain. Remember the way they behaved with Isa (AS) who told them not to practice Riba. Remember the promises they broke with the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Remember how they treated the Palestinian people who gave them shelter as the Nazi's drove them out of Europe. They are no different than their Hindu partners in crime across the border.

Lets talk real-politik what advantage has any Muslim nation had by recognising Israel? Would the Gulf Arabs enjoy the favours and protection of the USA, if they were not petrol pumps? What have Morocco and Jordan gained that was not through the efforts of their own hard work? Turkey has been its closest partner in the region for decades - what have they had in return?

What would we stand to gain? We trade in next to nothing anyway - we're broke so we can't import any of the fancy tech the Israeli's develop, not that they'd sell any of it to us anyway. Do you think they'd suddenly stop selling hi-tech weaponry to India? Do our relations with France, Russia, USA or Britain prevent them from selling to India? Of course not. The only nation who doesn't sell is China because they consider the Indian an adversary.

Is Israel capable of doing any real harm to us? No. Are we capable of doing any real harm to Israel? No. The likeliness of any harm either way is extremely unlikely.

What else could we gain from recognising Israel? Favour with the USA? What do you think will change suddenly? They'll back you over the Indians? Every single Pakistani leader has bent over backwards to please the USA and gain their favour. It's always been temporary whilst the US had something to gain. After they they reverted to type. This is how they treat every non white nation who isn't subservient to them. It's high time we stopped thinking like slaves. Stop trying to get into good books and write your own damn book.

The way I see it, if we recognise Israel we gain nothing and to be honest lose nothing either. It's a matter of principle and we know the Pakistani state has a habit of selling principles for dollars. This push to "recognise" Israel that we see in some dark corners, is nothing more than Israel trying to further buy global legitimacy - one insignificant country at a time. It's branding for the zionists - nothing more.

My stance for not recognising it is entirely based on principle. We do know that morality has been sold for dollars in Pakistan before and will be sold again. It's a daily transaction really - just on different scales. If there was any real tangible benefit to be had - our sell out leaders would have done it long ago.

Muslims also conquered the world and even we ruled it. There are thousands of battles to conquer land and spread Islam. If we go in history, it never ends. We should move on.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Now you're backtracking.

You don't need to call me names - that demeans you, not I. Just come up with the reference - if you really have one.

It wasn’t found in the book you mentioned as it was not a speech, but an official telegram.

“It is a knife driven into the heart of the Muslim world. Israel is an illegitimate child of the West.”

That was the statement which he gave at that time.

It was printed in all the major newspapers and most importantly transmitted on written and radio media to all of Pakistan.

Imran Khan recently alluded to it in a speech he gave criticizing the idea of relations with Israel.

 

[Solomon2]

It was printed in all the major newspapers and most importantly transmitted on written and radio media to all of Pakistan.

Then it counts as a statement and should be found in the collection of Jinnah's statements. But it's not there.

Find the quote. Otherwise it's like a false hadith scandal. I understand that Muslims treated the propagation of false hadiths by hanging some of the authors. Find the quote!

Imran Khan recently alluded to it in a speech he gave criticizing the idea of relations with Israel.

That doesn't make it any more genuine. The Ben Gurion/Pakistan quote was repeated by many before it was debunked. Find the quote!

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Then it counts as a statement and should be found in the collection of Jinnah's statements. But it's not there.

Lol. That book does not even contain the majority of the Quaid’s speeches.

Unfortunately for Pakistan, our English medium books and newspapers have always been second to Urdu.

Don’t trust Dawn, ET, or even Jang, there is a reason no one in Pakistan reads them. They invent falsehoods all the time.

You are dishonest and inventing lies to perpetuate your point.

Quaid e Azam was thoroughly against Israel, you will find those statements in the book you mentioned in the section about Palestine and Jordan.

 

[Solomon2]

Lol. That book does not even contain the majority of the Quaid’s speeches.

Unfortunately for Pakistan, our English medium books and newspapers have always been second to Urdu.

Don’t trust Dawn, ET, or even Jang, there is a reason no one in Pakistan reads them. They invent falsehoods all the time.

You are dishonest and inventing lies to perpetuate your point.

Quaid e Azam was thoroughly against Israel, you will find those statements in the book you mentioned in the section about Palestine and Jordan.

So, let's review where we're at:

The thread started as a response to two Pakistanis' dispute about relations with Israel. I affixed an article by a third Pakistani who asserts it's up to Pakistan to make the next move and that "It is essential for Pakistan to recognize Israel and start a new chapter."

At #27 you piped up to assert that Pakistan "would gain absolutely nothing. We would lose our soul...legitimacy...be humiliated and left in tatters" and invoked a prayer that "Pakistani people would never agree to normalize Israel."

In response to @OsmanAli98 you cited "the path of Muhammad Rasulullah" and the "Quaid and Allama Iqbal not for any reciprocation from anyone, but because Allah swt orders us to support justice and peace" - as reasons for maintaining Pakistani hostility to Israel, and finished with the broad, no-proof-presented assertion, "Israel is illegal down to its foundations" adding "which our Quaid referred to as 'the illegitimate child of the West.'"

That last - the invocation of the authority of the founder of the nation, practically akin to citing Mohammed himself - interested me enough to do an internet search which revealed no references - none at all - to Jinnah employing that phrase before an obscure website popped up with it in 2008. No newspaper records. Nothing in the standard texts of Jinnah's collected speeches and statements and writings. I asked you for your reference.

To this you responded it was in a book you have of Jinnah's speeches. You did not cite the title of the book, publisher, or page number. (And you claimed I was lying, though you didn't say what I could possibly be lying about.)

You did provide a link to speeches from Iqbal and Jinnah about Palestine. Jinnah never used the "illegitimate" phrase there, either.
Nevertheless, read it carefully. The motive Jinnah cited for opposing the Jewish National Home in Palestine in the 1930s was not hostility to Jews but hostility to British Imperialism at a time when the Brits were adamantly opposed to giving up their empire in India - a factor that didn't exist for him a decade later, when Jinnah, as Governor-General, had switched to supporting the Brits. In 1948 one can read his call for a "united front" as an appeal for outside help, "that every Mussalman should serve Pakistan honestly, sincerely and selflessly" - check out Jinnah's FULL 8/27/48 speech here - since Jinnah's main concern then was maintaining a comparatively-defenseless Pakistan's independence against India. (In that call, Jinnah failed. Arab Muslims did not flock to the subcontinent to defend Pakistan. Rather, under Jinnah's successor Liaquat Ali Khan "Zionist" America became the main supporter of Pakistan's defense efforts.)
So from the reference you cite a strong argument can be made that anti-Zionism was only useful to Jinnah as a means to create and sustain Pakistan's independence - not as an end in itself. Why, once Pakistan was secure, would Jinnah not then have supported Israel? Especially since the Arabs failed to respond to his appeals, while Israel-supporting America did?

I urged you to try again. You said you didn't have to because it was "well-known" and implied it was in Urdu. (Did you think Jinnah gave fluent speeches in Urdu?) And again you claimed without foundation that I was lying.

I asked again for the reference and suggested you leave off the name-calling.

You continued to back-track, claiming the phrase in question wasn't in the collections but in a "telegram" (again, no reference cited) and had appeared in media and was cited by IK.

I pointed out that that meant nothing as to how genuine it was, cited a similar situation where a false quote that had influenced Pakistani policy had been discredited. I compared the situation to the false hadith scandals that had plagued Muslims in the past. I urged you to look again.

You responded by acknowledging the Quaid collection didn't have the phrase (contradicting your prior assertion that it did), claiming it was incomplete, and trashing Pakistani newspapers - not to support MY position (which doing so does, since you, not I, cited them as sources) but in some way to support yours.

Then you claimed that I'm "dishonest and inventing lies to perpetuate your point." Though you couldn't cite even one.

From my point of view, it appears that you, having been caught perpetrating a lie, are responding by calling me an equally bad or worse person rather than acknowledging the situation and withdrawing the Jinnah quote in question.

How is that supposed to be valid? Why should anyone believe in you or what you write? Indeed, why should you?

To escape this trap of prideful lies empowering murder-mongering extremism do you see any course other than what Turyal Azam Khan recommended: that "It is essential for Pakistan to recognize Israel and start a new chapter" ?

Not just the government, Pan-IP, but individual Pakistanis like yourself. Why not start today? IMO the sooner the government senses a popular base of support, however small, the sooner it will feel confident enough to open friendly relations with the Jewish State.

And if you delay, if you let this slip further, will you ever gather the strength to change your mind?

@Burāq OI @Yaseen1 @Wa Muhammada @313ghazi

 

[313ghazi]

So, let's review where we're at:

The thread started as a response to two Pakistanis' dispute about relations with Israel. I affixed an article by a third Pakistani who asserts it's up to Pakistan to make the next move and that "It is essential for Pakistan to recognize Israel and start a new chapter."

At #27 you piped up to assert that Pakistan "would gain absolutely nothing. We would lose our soul...legitimacy...be humiliated and left in tatters" and invoked a prayer that "Pakistani people would never agree to normalize Israel."

In response to @OsmanAli98 you cited "the path of Muhammad Rasulullah" and the "Quaid and Allama Iqbal not for any reciprocation from anyone, but because Allah swt orders us to support justice and peace" - as reasons for maintaining Pakistani hostility to Israel, and finished with the broad, no-proof-presented assertion, "Israel is illegal down to its foundations" adding "which our Quaid referred to as 'the illegitimate child of the West.'"

That last - the invocation of the authority of the founder of the nation, practically akin to citing Mohammed himself - interested me enough to do an internet search which revealed no references - none at all - to Jinnah employing that phrase before an obscure website popped up with it in 2008. No newspaper records. Nothing in the standard texts of Jinnah's collected speeches and statements and writings. I asked you for your reference.

To this you responded it was in a book you have of Jinnah's speeches. You did not cite the title of the book, publisher, or page number. (And you claimed I was lying, though you didn't say what I could possibly be lying about.)

You did provide a link to speeches from Iqbal and Jinnah about Palestine. Jinnah never used the "illegitimate" phrase there, either.
Nevertheless, read it carefully. The motive Jinnah cited for opposing the Jewish National Home in Palestine in the 1930s was not hostility to Jews but hostility to British Imperialism at a time when the Brits were adamantly opposed to giving up their empire in India - a factor that didn't exist for him a decade later, when Jinnah, as Governor-General, had switched to supporting the Brits. In 1948 one can read his call for a "united front" as an appeal for outside help, "that every Mussalman should serve Pakistan honestly, sincerely and selflessly" - check out Jinnah's FULL 8/27/48 speech here - since Jinnah's main concern then was maintaining a comparatively-defenseless Pakistan's independence against India. (In that call, Jinnah failed. Arab Muslims did not flock to the subcontinent to defend Pakistan. Rather, under Jinnah's successor Liaquat Ali Khan "Zionist" America became the main supporter of Pakistan's defense efforts.)
So from the reference you cite a strong argument can be made that anti-Zionism was only useful to Jinnah as a means to create and sustain Pakistan's independence - not as an end in itself. Why, once Pakistan was secure, would Jinnah not then have supported Israel? Especially since the Arabs failed to respond to his appeals, while Israel-supporting America did?

I urged you to try again. You said you didn't have to because it was "well-known" and implied it was in Urdu. (Did you think Jinnah gave fluent speeches in Urdu?) And again you claimed without foundation that I was lying.

I asked again for the reference and suggested you leave off the name-calling.

You continued to back-track, claiming the phrase in question wasn't in the collections but in a "telegram" (again, no reference cited) and had appeared in media and was cited by IK.

I pointed out that that meant nothing as to how genuine it was, cited a similar situation where a false quote that had influenced Pakistani policy had been discredited. I compared the situation to the false hadith scandals that had plagued Muslims in the past. I urged you to look again.

You responded by acknowledging the Quaid collection didn't have the phrase (contradicting your prior assertion that it did), claiming it was incomplete, and trashing Pakistani newspapers - not to support MY position (which doing so does, since you, not I, cited them as sources) but in some way to support yours.

Then you claimed that I'm "dishonest and inventing lies to perpetuate your point." Though you couldn't cite even one.

From my point of view, it appears that you, having been caught perpetrating a lie, are responding by calling me an equally bad or worse person rather than acknowledging the situation and withdrawing the Jinnah quote in question.

How is that supposed to be valid? Why should anyone believe in you or what you write? Indeed, why should you?

To escape this trap of prideful lies empowering murder-mongering extremism do you see any course other than what Turyal Azam Khan recommended: that "It is essential for Pakistan to recognize Israel and start a new chapter" ?

Not just the government, Pan-IP, but individual Pakistanis like yourself. Why not start today? IMO the sooner the government senses a popular base of support, however small, the sooner it will feel confident enough to open friendly relations with the Jewish State.

And if you delay, if you let this slip further, will you ever gather the strength to change your mind?

@Burāq OI @Yaseen1 @Wa Muhammada @313ghazi

1. Honestly who cares about history. We are citizens, our opinions matter equally. With all respect, what Muhammad Ali Jinnah wanted, is personal to him now. It would have had more weight when he was in power, and during his lifetime he was a seasoned politician, so his opinion would have mattered more than in the past, but times have moved on. The reality of what Israel is has changed.

2. Israel of 1948 had a lot more legitimacy than Israel of today. Today Israel is commiting the gravest crimes against humanity in Palestine, no person with a shred of moral decency could support such a regime.

3. Rather than trying to preach at us, you should be trying to pull back your nation from savagery, back into the bounds of humanity and international law. It'd put you on a much better stead to do PR for Israel.

4. What is there to be gained from recognising Israel? Would Israel suddenly stop it's crimes against humanity? Would Israel stop waging war with our neighbour to the west? Would Israel stop supplying weapons used for genocide of Kashmiri's? Of course not.

 

[Solomon2]

...Today Israel is commiting the gravest crimes ...you should be trying to pull back your nation from savagery...

As discussed many, many times Pakistanis are forbidden from being taught by their teachers anything that shows Israel in a positive light and Pakistanis' teachers are implicitly encouraged to tell lies to reinforce the government's anti-Israel policy: link. I do see that you're in Britain, but the virus of antisemitism is very strong there lately, especially in the Labor Party, the Guardian, and the BBC. You're going to have to dig to find out how false such anti-Israel charges are.

If you're really interested, that is. For many antisemites, Jew-hatred seems to serve as a kind of security blanket, perhaps shielding their sense of identity from their own guilty consciences. They hold on to their "reasons" for jew-hatred despite objective facts.

 

[313ghazi]

As discussed many, many times Pakistanis are forbidden from being taught by their teachers anything that shows Israel in a positive light and Pakistanis teachers are implicitly encouraged to tell lies to reinforce the government's anti-Israel policy: link. I do see that you're in Britain, but the virus of antisemitism is very strong there lately, especially in the Guardian and the BBC. You're going to have to dig to find out how false such anti-Israel charges are.

If you're really interested, that is. For many antisemites, Jew-hatred seems to serve as a kind of security blanket, perhaps shielding their sense of identity from their own guilty consciences. They hold on to their "reasons" for jew-hatred despite objective facts.

So this is your defence of your nations endless crimes?

The whole world is talking about them - the only people not reporting them are the zionists themselves. You people can't hide the truth - even though you try really hard.

 

[Solomon2]

The whole world is talking about them - the only people not reporting them are the zionists themselves. You people can't hide the truth - even though you try really hard.

If you aren't willing to dig to find and promote objective facts that may contradict the anti-Zionist norm then doesn't that mean you're trying to hide the truth from yourself?

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Seems this Zionist trolls’ quest for recognition is a far fetched dream as of now.

Keep trying to manipulate history and twist it to your ends.

Pakistanis know our history and our heritage more than you.

Christians in the West and Arabs may be your slaves, but the Pakistani is never a slave of anyone but Allah swt almighty.

We walk the path of Rasulullah saws. We never stand with zalimoon.

 

[Solomon2]

Pakistanis know our history and our heritage more than you.

If that's the case then you're not representative of most Pakistanis, yes? Since I just showed you that I know a bit of Pakistan history better than you do. So you don't have these grounds to speak for Pakistan, do you?

...the Pakistani is never a slave of anyone but Allah swt almighty.

Pakistan's Higher Education Commission says otherwise - that you are to be a slave of the Pakistani government's anti-Israel policy until it decides otherwise. As one Pakistani dissenter put it,

"The directive is a product of a shallow and fascistic mindset that leads to radicalization in the society. It is also an attempt at institutionalizing mass clampdown of fundamental rights such as freedom of expression and assembly. It is unfortunate and condemnable that critical thinking is being banned in universities, instead of being encouraged and inculcated among the youth of Pakistan." link​

If you don't want to be a slave - if you refuse to equate the State with Allah - then you, personally, must be willing to defy this policy rather than endorse it, right?

 

[Fledgingwings]

With all the big trail of troubles and problems,if pakistan can have diplomatic relations with india then why not have with Israel? I mean we dont have any direct conflict with it and by opening up pakistan can help palestinians and Israel in resolving the long time issues.why not give it a shot?