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I'm disenchanted with India: Zardari

That almost sounded like a threat! :lol:

Though Zardari is "disenchanted" I don't think he has magical powers to bring about change, the issue of "terrorism" will take time to be solved. Afterall change does take time! :)

Yes ofcourse 8 plus years and the world is waiting for Pakistan to solve...

Thanks....
 
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I'm disenchanted with India: Zardari

Reasons in front of media:

:blah: :blah: :blah: :blah:

Real reason:

Indians are not paying me 10% commission even after I allowed some business between two hostile countries. My other resources are also drying (deduction in Pres. authority)

:whistle: :agree:


Novice if you dont have a point than shut up instead of coming up with this sort of rubbish
 
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The problem is that as the Pakistani President, Zardari is not paid to make comments sympathizing with the Indian POV.
This is the first time since he has been in office as President that he has been critical of India. Indians appear to be conveniently forgetting all his 'India loving' comments like 'I don't consider India an enemy, India does not wish to harm Pakistan, open borders between India and Pakistan' etc. If he was paid to 'not make comments sympathizing with India' then what explains all of that early 'love for India'?

It is quite possible that he has, like many other Pakistanis, simply grown tired of Indian games to isolate and sanction Pakistan internationally and Indian stall tactics on resolving disputes.
We have been down this road many times and every single time, India has burnt it's fingers. So you can understand India being a bit cautious in dealing with Pakistan.

Zardari will just have to bear the burden of his predecessors' actions.
One could argue that Pakistan has burnt its fingers equally with India in pursuing a normalized relationship, so that works both ways. Zardari and Musharraf were both willing to overlook past Indian treachery and intransigence and think 'outside the box' for a solution, only to be met with yet more Indian intransigence and excuses to stall progress.
 
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This is the first time since he has been in office as President that he has been critical of India. Indians appear to be conveniently forgetting all his 'India loving' comments like 'I don't consider India an enemy, India does not wish to harm Pakistan, open borders between India and Pakistan' etc. If he was paid to 'not make comments sympathizing with India' then what explains all of that early 'love for India'?

It is quite possible that he has, like many other Pakistanis, simply grown tired of Indian games to isolate and sanction Pakistan internationally and Indian stall tactics on resolving disputes.

Open borders is not an India-loving comment. It is one of the more feasible solutions out there. Sympathy with Indian POV would be condemnation of all those who train in Pakistan and continuously attack the Indian establishment.

And if I may, sir, growing tired is not an option for an international leader. What would happen if India grows tired of Pakistan's continuous support of those who attack Indian establishment? We wouldn't be even talking about discussions then. Patience is a virtue that has to be inherent in any leader.

Regarding international sanctions, couldn't one argue that Pakistan at this moment holds greater weightage internationally due to it's closeness to China and strategic relations with the US? I have been discussing this 'paranoia' with another member here, which seems to be inherent in every Pakistani whom I've talked to. Sorry for stereotyping but it's my personal experience,

One could argue that Pakistan has burnt its fingers equally with India in pursuing a normalized relationship, so that works both ways. Zardari and Musharraf were both willing to overlook past Indian treachery and intransigence and think 'outside the box' for a solution, only to be met with yet more Indian intransigence and excuses to stall progress.

And that is why both parties need to be sure of the intentions of the other. And that takes time and patience from both sides.
 
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This is the first time since he has been in office as President that he has been critical of India. Indians appear to be conveniently forgetting all his 'India loving' comments like 'I don't consider India an enemy, India does not wish to harm Pakistan, open borders between India and Pakistan' etc. If he was paid to 'not make comments sympathizing with India' then what explains all of that early 'love for India'?

It is quite possible that he has, like many other Pakistanis, simply grown tired of Indian games to isolate and sanction Pakistan internationally and Indian stall tactics on resolving disputes.

One could argue that Pakistan has burnt its fingers equally with India in pursuing a normalized relationship, so that works both ways. Zardari and Musharraf were both willing to overlook past Indian treachery and intransigence and think 'outside the box' for a solution, only to be met with yet more Indian intransigence and excuses to stall progress.

Can you give me one reason why India should adopt stall tactics on resolving disputes. India desires normalization of relations with all neighboring countries including Pakistan. India is preoccupied with other important things than get hyphenated with Pakistan.
 
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Can you give me one reason why India should adopt stall tactics on resolving disputes. India desires normalization of relations with all neighboring countries including Pakistan. India is preoccupied with other important things than get hyphenated with Pakistan.

India wishes to adopt stall tactics because it wishes to retain the existing territorial boundaries and convert the LoC to IB. Accepting the LoC as the IB is not going to be accepted by Pakistan, and therefore India wishes to drag things out in the hope that Pakistan will accept the Indian viewpoint on the issue.

To enter into negotiations on the J&K dispute at this point in time, given Pakistan objections to the LoC = IB proposal means India has to compromise on its stance and explore some other option in negotiations.
 
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India wishes to adopt stall tactics because it wishes to retain the existing territorial boundaries and convert the LoC to IB. Accepting the LoC as the IB is not going to be accepted by Pakistan, and therefore India wishes to drag things out in the hope that Pakistan will accept the Indian viewpoint on the issue.

To enter into negotiations on the J&K dispute at this point in time, given Pakistan objections to the LoC = IB proposal means India has to compromise on its stance and explore some other option in negotiations.

Pakistan has been on the Kashmir issue since 1947 and hasnt moved a bit. Wont you call that rigid too ? Accepting anything except the LOC as the IB is the only solution that India favors and the only solution that can lead to a peaceful neighborhood. If Pakistan has any other plans or dreams in mind, this battle will go on endlessly and will further weaken the already shaken democratic and economic structure of Pakistan. The ball is in your court and it for you to decide what future would you like.
 
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Open borders is not an India-loving comment. It is one of the more feasible solutions out there. Sympathy with Indian POV would be condemnation of all those who train in Pakistan and continuously attack the Indian establishment.
'Open borders' has its detractors in Pakistan as well, namely in the economic sense given indirect and direct GoI subsidies to various sectors and restrictions on imports, so it may be a feasible solution in an ideal world, but not necessarily the way the Indian tarrif and subsidy structure is set up currently.

And Zardari, along with many others in Pakistan, have expressed sympathy with India on the issue of terrorism. The GoP and the average Pakistani did not dance on the streets when Mumbai happened - they condemned it. Zardari was offering joint investigations and what not. Even now there are offers of intelligence sharing etc. So I believe my point is valid.
And if I may, sir, growing tired is not an option for an international leader. What would happen if India grows tired of Pakistan's continuous support of those who attack Indian establishment? We wouldn't be even talking about discussions then. Patience is a virtue that has to be inherent in any leader.
I think adjusting to reality is important for an international leader, and Zardaris comments indicate that adjustment. Pakistan only supports the right of Kashmiris to exercise self-determination, and it only supports certain groups because of Indian occupation of the territory - Pakistan has grown tired of Indian intransigence over resolving J&K.

And as for 'Indian growing tired', lets not forget the international diplomatic campaign India initiated to isolate and sanction Pakistan after the Mumbai attacks, despite Pakistani condemnation of the attacks and offers for joint investigation and cooperation. India did not send Pakistan the evidence (dossiers) till months later, despite sharing it with other nations much earlier, and in the meantime attacked Pakistan non-stop, and blamed it for not acting against XYZ, when it was India herself that was not sharing evidence!

I think with the display of malicious Indian intent, which continues to this day in the Indian opposition to the Sino-Pak civilian nuclear cooperation agreement (with no military connotations), Pakistani leadership is rightfully 'disenchanted with India'.

It is India that can change this impression by changing its behavior, for one on unequivocally supporting the peaceful acquisition of nuclear technology by Pakistan for civilian purposes if under IAEA safeguards, and by ending its campaign of maligning Pakistan internationally and cooperating on terrorism instead of playing a blame game.
Regarding international sanctions, couldn't one argue that Pakistan at this moment holds greater weightage internationally due to it's closeness to China and strategic relations with the US? I have been discussing this 'paranoia' with another member here, which seems to be inherent in every Pakistani whom I've talked to. Sorry for stereotyping but it's my personal experience,
I did not say that Indian attempts to isolate and sanction Pakistan succeeded (Pakistan played its cards well in difficult circumstances to neutralize Indian moves in that context), but that India acted to isolate and sanction Pakistan internationally. It is Indian efforts in that regard that betray an Indian intent of hostility towards Pakistan and why Zardari may be tiring of it after two years of praising India.
And that is why both parties need to be sure of the intentions of the other. And that takes time and patience from both sides.
Negotiations and dialog on dispute resolution do not weaken one side or the other. Just because the composite dialog was going on did not mean that India was also simultaneously withdrawing forces from J&K or weakening its defences anywhere along the LoC or IB. Negotiations and dialog set up a roadmap of dispute resolution and once the roadmap is made clear, there are probably going to be certain conditions that have to be satisfied for progress to be made on the ground. It is dialog and negotiations that develop trust.
 
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Pakistan has been on the Kashmir issue since 1947 and hasnt moved a bit. Wont you call that rigid too ?

The Kashmir issue is the major dispute, how can you argue that focusing on the major dispute between the two sides is 'rigid'?
Accepting anything except the LOC as the IB is the only solution that India favors and the only solution that can lead to a peaceful neighborhood.
But that is not a bilateral solution or a compromise, that is imposing the Indian preferred solution on Pakistan, a solution that Nehru committed to back in the early fifties - why do you expect Pakistan to accept a unilateral Indian imposed solution? Surely there must be give and take and a compromise in the Indian position and the Pakistani position of a referendum in the entire State.
 
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This is the first time since he has been in office as President that he has been critical of India. Indians appear to be conveniently forgetting all his 'India loving' comments like 'I don't consider India an enemy, India does not wish to harm Pakistan, open borders between India and Pakistan' etc. If he was paid to 'not make comments sympathizing with India' then what explains all of that early 'love for India'?

It is quite possible that he has, like many other Pakistanis, simply grown tired of Indian games to isolate and sanction Pakistan internationally and Indian stall tactics on resolving disputes.

One could argue that Pakistan has burnt its fingers equally with India in pursuing a normalized relationship, so that works both ways. Zardari and Musharraf were both willing to overlook past Indian treachery and intransigence and think 'outside the box' for a solution, only to be met with yet more Indian intransigence and excuses to stall progress.

treachery and intransigence are words that dont look good coming from Pakistan. Kargil, terrorism, 65, 47, 26/11, etc etc put a huge question mark on any words coming out of the mouths of Pakistani leaders. Im sorry to say but the Indian Government is not ready to look past Pakistan's treachery and intransigence and thinking "Outside the Box" is out of question. India's stance on Kashmir and all outstanding issues is quite clear and it will remain that way. We have burnt much more than fingers trying to normalize things with Pakistan and are not ready to do that again.
 
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The Kashmir issue is the major dispute, how can you argue that focusing on the major dispute between the two sides is 'rigid'?

But that is not a bilateral solution or a compromise, that is imposing the Indian preferred solution on Pakistan, a solution that Nehru committed to back in the early fifties - why do you expect Pakistan to accept a unilateral Indian imposed solution? Surely there must be give and take and a compromise in the Indian position and the Pakistani position of a referendum in the entire State.

By giving and taking you mean giving and taking nation territory ? if that is so then common sense must prevail here. Which government on the Indian or Pakistani side will allow for its territory to be given up to the other side. Doing that will basically wreck its political career and spell the end for most of its leaders. So the only solution that works out is the LOC one for both of us as further rigidness on this issue will only limit both of our potentials. In regards to rigidness on this issue, well its for you to decide where this " Rigidness" has got you, and how clever it is to maintain such a stance.
 
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treachery and intransigence are words that dont look good coming from Pakistan. Kargil, terrorism, 65, 47, 26/11, etc etc put a huge question mark on any words coming out of the mouths of Pakistani leaders.
Nor are they words that look very good coming our of an Indians mouth given the unilateral rejection of the UNSC resolutions by Nehru, occupation of Siachen, support for terrorism in and the breakaway of East Pakistan, the various terrorist attacks in Pakistan, Baluchistan insurgency and terrorist attacks etc.

If you are going to drag in an entire list, some unsubstantiated, then so can I.
Im sorry to say but the Indian Government is not ready to look past Pakistan's treachery and intransigence and thinking "Outside the Box" is out of question. India's stance on Kashmir and all outstanding issues is quite clear and it will remain that way. We have burnt much more than fingers trying to normalize things with Pakistan and are not ready to do that again.
Nor is apparently the Pakistani government willing to overlook past Indian treachery, support for terrorism, reneging on agreements and support for terrorism.

So now that I have flamed you back, either post/discuss constructively, or please refrain from the same old same old.
 
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By giving and taking you mean giving and taking nation territory ? if that is so then common sense must prevail here. Which government on the Indian or Pakistani side will allow for its territory to be given up to the other side. Doing that will basically wreck its political career and spell the end for most of its leaders. So the only solution that works out is the LOC one for both of us as further rigidness on this issue will only limit both of our potentials. In regards to rigidness on this issue, well its for you to decide where this " Rigidness" has got you, and how clever it is to maintain such a stance.
Indians must spread awareness in India about the rights of Kashmiris and end their morally bankrupt position on the issue of denying the Kashmiris a voice in determining their future as promised them under the rules of partition and the UNSC resolutions, both agreed to by India and Pakistan.

Once Indians change their mindset to one that respects the rights of millions of Kashmiris, they can then force the GoI to allow that right to be exercised in some fashion, not necessarily across the entire State or with just one single plebiscite.

The problem is on your end, not on ours.
 
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