IISc, IIT-Bombay in Top 30 as Indian Universities Move Up in Global Rankings

[Krptonite]

I think I understand what you say. This is quite true but unfortunately at least for Chinese government and education department, they have a lot of people to school and cannot promise high standard for everyone especially in poorer provinces. So they come solve the problem with what you say is one size fits all approach. This really does make most students into valueless individual but good for factory work and smaller duties. While the schooling system looks for promising talent and they do reward them with scholarship and move them to better classes, it is rare and most country side students do not get such privileges even if they have good talents at young age.

Unfortunately this is true more because of money and how to spend money on schooling. While the government knows schooling is important to get right, they do not solve the problem with right procedure even if their attitude is acceptable. A lot of funding does go into schooling but there is a huge difference between schooling quality in high end and low end. This isn't true for western countries where the quality is quite standard and of a decent standard. If China has the luxury of creating an efficient machine for selecting talent and cultivating talents while maintaining decent standard for rest of youngsters, it would. But for many reasons this isn't really done until university level. I feel the government is confident the current system is good enough just because there are so many people anyway. They fail to understand the unrealized potential that still exists and creating new industries maybe can expand these public policies into becoming more open minded about what changes to make in education. It is still thinking in terms of "where to get large population to do the factory work and manufacturing."

I'm not sure how India is like but both countries seem to share the common large population but the difference is India's young are growing in numbers while China's generations are not having as many children anymore. This means in future, there will be diverging directions for both countries. I think Chinese government's plan for this is to wait until same resources can be given to smaller number size and improve quality that way.

Its not entirely about our polity (on both sides) which does not recognise the untapped potential, at the end of the day it boils down to 'needs must'. With such a gigantic population combined with such a large landmass to govern, the number of challenges our respective governments face, they cant really afford to allocate more resources than absolutely needed in one particular sector. Specially if the available reasources are meagre (comparitively).

Now add personal agendas and general greed into the mix and you have an idea as to magnitude of the problem.

As for how each respective governments approach this problem, China seems to have implemented a step wise approach with segments of the populace being pushed up, one at a time, while India has opted to let the market forces decide.

 

[Nilgiri]

@Nilgiri

Dude I never click on anything from TYT just so you know. They are proven prolific liars.

 

[HariPrasad]

Dude I never click on anything from TYT just so you know. They are proven prolific liars.

All right. What you think and believe is true and rest is lie.

 

[Nilgiri]

Exactly same as me. Sometimes I get low and counter troll. I sometimes feel the trolls are done deliberately and some sort of plan going on to create more hate and division. Very sad that this actually works and otherwise normal and rational people can be made into hateful and irrational ones. I can understand these normal people becoming angry and counter trolling. Oh well as long as we remember to try and ignore the trolls and refute claims with reason and good tone. The normal people will also calm down a level and better discussions may be had.



To be honest I think there is many similarity in Asian learning methods for younger people below university. We focus a lot on rote learning and memorization. I think this is good and bad. I don't buy the western blame that all Asians whether Indian, Chinese, or Japanese, use rote learning methods to get to university and onwards. This is good and bad.

Sometimes memorization and information is useful. We are all capable of great intelligence and as long as students are being asked to think outside the normal memorization patterns, the information they get from the memorization can be useful. I'm also an engineer and I can say that Chinese primary and high school has A LOT of memorization methods of learning. This is often so wasteful of time and ability. But it also has certain parts that focus on non-linear thinking and our maths subjects teaching can be very good. It isn't all simply follow methods. Many entrance exam questions test ability to think rather than what a student knows. Similar to maths olympiad questions. But our English curriculum is 100% memorization.

At the beginning of introducing new concepts, Chinese maths and science schools teach memorize info and always say "acceptance before understanding". So A LOT of time is given to rote learning and applying method and using follow the rules. But after that step, they also then focus on understand the rules and think about how and why they exist, then they test higher thinking like how can students apply rules and apply subtle ways to change the rules for different real world problems. People think Chinese school and often all Asian schools only do step 1 because so much time and effort is spent on step 1. Of course our average and below average students can barely handle step 1.

I think many parts of Asia are the same. Koreans also have heavy emphasize on rote learning method especially to create focus and the right attitude to learning in young people. To teach them learning is uncomfortable and hard and often involves trivial exercises and practice practice practice. The smart Indian people I know from my time working overseas, also tell me their teaching is so similar to our's and to be honest both Chinese and Indian engineers were looked down on in Australia but their engineers were the worst and made so many stupid errors. We just looked at each other and rolled our eyes at their arrogance.

Some good aspects and some bad. But some UK schools apparently have looked at introducing Chinese maths curriculum and textbook to take the useful parts. Indian teaching I feel must be quite similar to rest of Asia where we also place importance on a student's ability to learn and remember many useless knowledge and hoping the process of learning and memorizing can adapt to application and non-linear higher end thinking. This is the Asian way I guess. And has been for many centuries and even millenia. But Indian old philosophy schools and Chinese ones also placed great importance on thought and how to think too. Which shows we are all capable of what westerners say we are not capable of. Otherwise so many Asian and South Asian people in western universities and make up elites of western universities and their organizations. Cannot be possible if we are all stupid robots who only memorize.

Great post again.

Btw, your name choice "serenity" is interesting one. Are you a Firefly fan?

All right. What you think and believe is true and rest is lie.

Not really, just find a better source than TYT (seriously, they have lied way too much for me, mostly on other topics that must be said, but still I just will never click on their content if I can help it).

I already explained the discrepancy between Indian and Chinese in US....Indians are more recent (elite) arrivals so of course they will be doing better overall in income level compared to Chinese who have on average been there lot longer and have longer history inside the US.

This is a trend one sees with immigration in general, the naturalised generations down the road tend to fall back to the mean of the country because of more silver spoon complex etc..... esp. compared to the 1st generation immigrant who moved and have a real drive to succeed to make something of themselves given they fled (or were pushed away by) some harsh realities in home country etc....i.e they have more sense of what the opportunity gave and meant to them.

It is not really that indicative of education system back in the home countries to begin with...given 99+% of the ppl that go through it there do not come to the US/developed 3rd party in first place to settle. Judging everything on the 1% spearhead is only so relevant. Yes obviously expanding what was afforded to the 1% to be this successful to the rest of the 99% is obviously the key issue for the source-country in the end...to better compete with the country that is attracting/pulling away the current 1% elite.

@Skull and Bones also has been over this. You actually have to come and live in North America to understand sometimes...what is the range of diversity one can find amount Chinese and Indians here in academics and socioeconomic profile...and the contexts of it. Both cultures overall put strong emphasis on their children doing well academically and to have a good plan for a well paying job etc...compared to the average I would say (again because of home culture but also because as minority you feel its a good guarantee to succeed since you are somewhat uprooted from your own majority country etc)

Its not apples to apples like you are making it out to be (that it means India will be more successful in education compared to "mediocre" China on basis of their 1% elite performances in other countries)....that is the same kind of concept that Han Patriot troll guy et. al likes to blab from their end too. For one have you looked at the state of our primary and secondary education (pure results wise) compared to China? We need to seriously address that so badly (again look at ASER reports), like a good decade ago or so (and we still are going so slow on it!)....and here you are talking about surpassing China in their "mediocre" education.

I start to get angry (like nothing else really) when Indians push mountain of an issue kind of things under the rug like this...and rather focus on the pretty furniture in the room....just like when we talk high and mighty about the 91 reforms and dont spare a thought to really look (and learn from) what Deng did at the grassroots level for China in comparison in the 80s....that we still have yet to do tbh. It is our collective loss to not learn from the good things that China has done, esp concerning the basics... (of course be cognisant of the bad things too and what we are doing better and what the respective limitations/thresholds of the govt systems are etc..). It should be a much more mature analysis rather than emotional essentially trolling one.

@serenity @GeraltofRivia @Chinese-Dragon @Joe Shearer @jbgt90 @Vibrio @Cookie Monster @Oscar @Jungibaaz @VCheng @rott @The Sandman @Hell hound @Sam. @Ryuzaki @lemurian @kmc_chacko @anant_s
@RabzonKhan @Vergennes @Sher Shah Awan @padamchen @Mage @bluesky

 

[VCheng]

You actually have to come and live in North America to understand sometimes...what is the range of diversity one can find amount Chinese and Indians here in academics and socioeconomic profile...and the contexts of it. Both cultures overall put strong emphasis on their children doing well academically and to have a good plan for a well paying job etc...compared to the average I would say (again because of home culture but also because as minority you feel its a good guarantee to succeed since you are somewhat uprooted from your own majority country etc)

Migrants typically tend to be overdriven in their motivation to succeed, generally speaking, to make up for the losses associated with being uprooted.

 

[HariPrasad]

Great post again.

Btw, your name choice "serenity" is interesting one. Are you a Firefly fan?



Not really, just find a better source than TYT (seriously, they have lied way too much for me, mostly on other topics that must be said, but still I just will never click on their content if I can help it).

I already explained the discrepancy between Indian and Chinese in US....Indians are more recent (elite) arrivals so of course they will be doing better overall in income level compared to Chinese who have on average been there lot longer and have longer history inside the US.

This is a trend one sees with immigration in general, the naturalised generations down the road tend to fall back to the mean of the country because of more silver spoon complex etc..... esp. compared to the 1st generation immigrant who moved and have a real drive to succeed to make something of themselves given they fled (or were pushed away by) some harsh realities in home country etc....i.e they have more sense of what the opportunity gave and meant to them.

It is not really that indicative of education system back in the home countries to begin with...given 99+% of the ppl that go through it there do not come to the US/developed 3rd party in first place to settle. Judging everything on the 1% spearhead is only so relevant. Yes obviously expanding what was afforded to the 1% to be this successful to the rest of the 99% is obviously the key issue for the source-country in the end...to better compete with the country that is attracting/pulling away the current 1% elite.

@Skull and Bones also has been over this. You actually have to come and live in North America to understand sometimes...what is the range of diversity one can find amount Chinese and Indians here in academics and socioeconomic profile...and the contexts of it. Both cultures overall put strong emphasis on their children doing well academically and to have a good plan for a well paying job etc...compared to the average I would say (again because of home culture but also because as minority you feel its a good guarantee to succeed since you are somewhat uprooted from your own majority country etc)

Its not apples to apples like you are making it out to be (that it means India will be more successful in education compared to "mediocre" China on basis of their 1% elite performances in other countries)....that is the same kind of concept that Han Patriot troll guy et. al likes to blab from their end too. For one have you looked at the state of our primary and secondary education (pure results wise) compared to China? We need to seriously address that so badly (again look at ASER reports), like a good decade ago or so (and we still are going so slow on it!)....and here you are talking about surpassing China in their "mediocre" education.

I start to get angry (like nothing else really) when Indians push mountain of an issue kind of things under the rug like this...and rather focus on the pretty furniture in the room....just like when we talk high and mighty about the 91 reforms and dont spare a thought to really look (and learn from) what Deng did at the grassroots level for China in comparison in the 80s....that we still have yet to do tbh. It is our collective loss to not learn from the good things that China has done, esp concerning the basics... (of course be cognisant of the bad things too and what we are doing better and what the respective limitations/thresholds of the govt systems are etc..). It should be a much more mature analysis rather than emotional essentially trolling one.

@serenity @GeraltofRivia @Chinese-Dragon @Joe Shearer @jbgt90 @Vibrio @Cookie Monster @Oscar @Jungibaaz @VCheng @rott @The Sandman @Hell hound @Sam. @Ryuzaki @lemurian @kmc_chacko @anant_s
@RabzonKhan @Vergennes @Sher Shah Awan @padamchen @Mage @bluesky

You youselef quoted Wikipidea, TYT, US labor department data etc is wrong. You are the only right person. Further, you say that Indians have come recently so they are richer than Chinese. What a logic!!!!! Recent comer are richer than those who are staying there for years!!!!!

I bow down to your logic and except that I have no knowledge on subject matter and ignorant compared to you. So I accept my defeat and leave this discussion by bowing down to you.

 

[Nilgiri]

quoted Wikipidea

Its from US census in the end (wiki certainly doesnt twist things to some larger narrative like TYT likes to do).

If you want to ignore what I am saying about deeper problems in India compared to China or any other country (that we shouldn't be ignoring in some clamour to put down China or any other with 1% spearhead performance comparisons), be my guest.

Honestly I do not much care for the way you go about in other threads trying to push this India-STRONK narrative so blindly and excessively. I tend to despise all STRONK narratives in general....why should an India based one be any different? I am after the truth, not emotion (I get plenty of the latter already here and outside). But you are free to keep going, its your choice in the end....seems this forum loves that stuff.

Again please read the ASER reports over the years (so much so that you can find the faults with their process/recommendations too like I have) before you posture here in some ridiculous 1% = 100% extrapolation. Thats a good 10 times worse on average at raw level when people use USD nominal as be all end all for economic size (taking that to be on average somewhere around 10% to 100% extrapolation).

After that read the PISA tests (both sides of the argument) in as much detail as you care to as well. Same goes for the IQ tests and so on. (They all have merits, they all have faults, that process of good debate will show). This is not a process of theres a fire and you have water to douse it ok? Its not a black and white scenario.

 

[lemurian]

.just like when we talk high and mighty about the 91 reforms and dont spare a thought to really look (and learn from) what Deng did at the grassroots level for China in comparison in the 80s

True. But Deng ran on tracks laid by Mao. Deng's economic reforms would not have been as successful without the social and human development focus from Mao. That healthy, literate workforce made China a world beater. Our current human and social development is still decades behind China.

Literacy

Life Expectancy

 

[Nilgiri]

True. But Deng ran on tracks laid by Mao. Deng's economic reforms would not have been as successful without the social and human development focus from Mao. That healthy, literate workforce made China a world beater. Our current human and social development is still decades behind China.

Literacy

Life Expectancy

I dont really trust a lot of China's stats (esp during the cold war era) in be all-end all (direct numbers apples to apples) way for social development....given the purges going on among the intelligentsia, elite and even govt at various times....and the need for propaganda. But definitely there is/was lot to learn from the basic concept of mass education promotion and large scale rural health drives....that India didn't do so comprehensively (instead invested way much time into fabian socialism experimentation at the higher economic realms which didn't matter so much...i.e like focusing on the icing before you even baked the cake).

The one thing Mao did that ended up (kind of unintended) being pretty useful beyond doubt for Deng (to build upon economically) was really more to do with the erasure of the land owning class (former defacto power) in China and the clean slate it provided for mass mobility/rural businesses as the first kind of SEZ-type process flows in the 80s. Mao did it for completely different kind of reason (and his successors like Hua Guofeng were supposed to continue afterwards...but Deng neatly outmaneuvered them).

That kind of stuff really gums up the works in India politically at a ground level....things took much longer to permeate even to the level they have now. But you visit rural China (even parts left behind by migration to cities etc) and things are very much different because of it. India trying something more top down federal dole for rural work kinda way with NREGA, but its not the same tbh.

True. But Deng ran on tracks laid by Mao. Deng's economic reforms would not have been as successful without the social and human development focus from Mao. That healthy, literate workforce made China a world beater. Our current human and social development is still decades behind China.

Literacy

Life Expectancy

The life expectancy for India also is like 68.5 in 2016, so there seems to be some kinda offset in this graph.

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.LE00.IN?locations=IN

 

[serenity]

Ahhh too much reading hahaha. Sorry Nilgiri I don't know what Firefly is. They chose this name for me and I like it so didn't want to make changes after.

I am surprised US income level highest ethnicity ranking is Indians. To be honest I always thought it would be some east asian countries. And surprised Chinese ethnics are doing better than Japanese, Taiwanese, and Korean. Maybe this has a lot to do with the striving for high education and income in more recent migrants and poorer ones. The other east asian groups are wealthier than Chinese usually especially in the past. So maybe the other asians being richer than Chinese didn't work as hard. If we use this record as evidence one group is smarter than another or that one group has better education, than that means Chinese are smarter and/or have better education system than Japanese, Taiwanese, and Koreans. And that is definitely not true!

Asian work ethic means we all do quite well in migrant groups to western countries. We all force education mentality on our children and work hard. Indians will be same as any other Asian group so perhaps Indians at the top of the list show the migrants to USA from India just worked harder than the other Asian groups who are all above average income. Definitely means Chinese don't all become chefs and pizza delivery boys. That's ridiculous claim. But of course there are unsuccessful Asian migrants and average ones too.

 

[GeraltofRivia]

True. But Deng ran on tracks laid by Mao. Deng's economic reforms would not have been as successful without the social and human development focus from Mao. That healthy, literate workforce made China a world beater. Our current human and social development is still decades behind China.

Literacy

Life Expectancy

Totally agreed. The success of the economical reform in the 80s would not be as successful without the fundamentals that was built solidly in the first decades of the republic, particularly in education and healthcare.

These early measures have turned China from a feudal nation into a reasonably industrial one, and set the stage for the late economical reform and industrialization.

 

[Nilgiri]

I don't know what Firefly is.

Space + Sci-fi "cowboy wild west" opera kind of TV show. Lasted only one season + one movie (to the major resentment of its fans). The name of the spaceship on it was "serenity". The word sometimes reminds me of the theme song heh.

 

[GeraltofRivia]

This topic reminds me one of my favorite movies on education: Hindi Medium. Finding so much commonalities between Indian and Chinese mindsets wrt education.

Rah and wife were lectured by the consultant about the consequence of not getting into a good school.

Raj gets up early with Shyamprakash to catch bus in “harsh” life.

 

[Nilgiri]

Some interesting interviews.

 

[Tauren Paladin]

The only advantage Chinese institution has is huge spending in infrastructure. So far talent is concern, Chinese institutes stands nowhere. Indian institutes produces top CEOs of World's top multinationals, top educationist, top scientist and top economist. Chinese are famous as chefs, accounts clerks and Pizza boys. US reporst om profession of Migrants confirms this. You can jsut calm down and accept the reality.

Those Indian CEOs were educated at the best American univeristies not IITs. Sundar Pichai studied at Standford and Satya Nadella at the University of Chicago. 0% chance they'll get hired at Microsoft or Google with an IIT degree lol

Chinese institutes produced top CEOs that led many Chinese companies into the fortune 500 while Indian companies are barely featured in the fortune 500 lol.

Also, this ranking is based on emerging economies, so universities from USA, UK, Canada, Singapore, and Japan are not included.