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IISc, IIT-Bombay in Top 30 as Indian Universities Move Up in Global Rankings

China is not a mediocre country in education and research today already. It will not "remain" mediocre. Of course some people will disagree but no UK research paper empirically proved this claim. It is ridiculous claim to make anyway. Of course some people will refute that because of personal hatred and politics. There will be some Neo Nazis saying things like Jews are stupid and all their inventions suck and stolen. They will be very confident too but it doesn't make it true.

Also this thread is quoting a dodgy news article. I'm sure Indian higher education is also improving. But why even involve China into that discussion? Why take something positive and purely Indian related and involve China by saying flaming things. It invites all the trolls and all the other people with opposite political motivations into flaming the thread. Then everyone gets emotional and the whole discussion gets worse.

I studied English in China. Not degree just courses. But maybe my language isn't good still definitely not the example some guy made saying he met someone who can't speak a word of English despite degree. That's one example. And that's if you can believe that guy. So why then say many science accounting etc degrees also worthless? That's the definition of not thinking properly. Using one person's single example to make broad judgements. I guess it's this kind of belief that makes already convinced people believe all Chinese are no good in higher education. This really doesn't matter because reality doesn't agree with these people. But it is kind of offensive to Chinese people who will read this sort of things. And some of them will flame. That's like me saying all dirty Indians are disgusting rapists who smell like curry. No wonder westerners hate them in their country and beat them up. Indians who read that if it is meant seriously will of course be offended. This isn't about being too sensitive because it is directly meant to offend and using arrogant judgements based on half truth or complete exaggerations. Let's ignore the obvious trolls and reactionaries who are reacting purely based from emotion and anger. Get China out of the discussion and refrain from comparisons or saying how one is better or getting better etc.

On topic. India will of course continue to improve education and future will have increasing number of developing world citizens ranking higher and higher. We hold most of the population of the world. Even if 10% of us reach 90% education level held by west, we will start ranking higher up and holding a lot of the proportion of research output. This should only be a good thing for humanity.
It all started from the trolling post #3 by Han Patriot.
 
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China is not a mediocre country in education and research today already. It will not "remain" mediocre. Of course some people will disagree but no UK research paper empirically proved this claim. It is ridiculous claim to make anyway. Of course some people will refute that because of personal hatred and politics. There will be some Neo Nazis saying things like Jews are stupid and all their inventions suck and stolen. They will be very confident too but it doesn't make it true.

Also this thread is quoting a dodgy news article. I'm sure Indian higher education is also improving. But why even involve China into that discussion? Why take something positive and purely Indian related and involve China by saying flaming things. It invites all the trolls and all the other people with opposite political motivations into flaming the thread. Then everyone gets emotional and the whole discussion gets worse.

I studied English in China. Not degree just courses. But maybe my language isn't good still definitely not the example some guy made saying he met someone who can't speak a word of English despite degree. That's one example. And that's if you can believe that guy. So why then say many science accounting etc degrees also worthless? That's the definition of not thinking properly. Using one person's single example to make broad judgements. I guess it's this kind of belief that makes already convinced people believe all Chinese are no good in higher education. This really doesn't matter because reality doesn't agree with these people. But it is kind of offensive to Chinese people who will read this sort of things. And some of them will flame. That's like me saying all dirty Indians are disgusting rapists who smell like curry. No wonder westerners hate them in their country and beat them up. Indians who read that if it is meant seriously will of course be offended. This isn't about being too sensitive because it is directly meant to offend and using arrogant judgements based on half truth or complete exaggerations. Let's ignore the obvious trolls and reactionaries who are reacting purely based from emotion and anger. Get China out of the discussion and refrain from comparisons or saying how one is better or getting better etc.

On topic. India will of course continue to improve education and future will have increasing number of developing world citizens ranking higher and higher. We hold most of the population of the world. Even if 10% of us reach 90% education level held by west, we will start ranking higher up and holding a lot of the proportion of research output. This should only be a good thing for humanity.

Great post buddy. Yes we should all say no to identity politics kind of trolling/generalising. We owe it to the individual, higher thought and overall betterment/progress of all societies.
 
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I noticed the trolling was started by a Chinese member. Or member pretending to be Chinese. Either way, it is done to antagonize Indians so it is trolling against Indian members. Other threads are the reverse. and Others involve Vietnamese or Pakistani members starting the trolling. This forum is so full of this. If we approach all subjects with high respect for each other and ignore the trollers, I think we will realize many of our political problems are not as dire.
 
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I noticed the trolling was started by a Chinese member. Or member pretending to be Chinese. Either way, it is done to antagonize Indians so it is trolling against Indian members. Other threads are the reverse. and Others involve Vietnamese or Pakistani members starting the trolling. This forum is so full of this. If we approach all subjects with high respect for each other and ignore the trollers, I think we will realize many of our political problems are not as dire.

Yeah I'm hoping to wind down on the counter-trolling I do (which I never would have done in first place if there weren't so many gosh darn trolls around having free reign in even the most highest/humble of subjects)....because its just silly in the end given it looks like they are just going to be sticking around...and I only sully myself in the end.

Hopefully more quality members (like you) from all sides interacting more with each other will solve this issue more broadly (and negate the trolls)....because it will give less reason (I hope) for general members to go after trolls if they see better quality use of their time etc.
 
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It needs to start at primary level. Too much potential is laid to waste, just look at recent ASER report, still so terrible.
Our primary educations scores are abysmal, I blame greater focus on rote learning and next to nothing on critical thinking. Why is it, that despite 60+ years and prevalent options (teaching methodologies) across the globe, we still cannot improve such a vital section of our education sector.
 
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Yeah I'm hoping to wind down on the counter-trolling I do (which I never would have done in first place if there weren't so many gosh darn trolls around having free reign in even the most highest/humble of subjects)....because its just silly in the end given it looks like they are just going to be sticking around...and I only sully myself in the end.

Hopefully more quality members (like you) from all sides interacting more with each other will solve this issue more broadly (and negate the trolls)....because it will give less reason (I hope) for general members to go after trolls if they see better quality use of their time etc.

Exactly same as me. Sometimes I get low and counter troll. I sometimes feel the trolls are done deliberately and some sort of plan going on to create more hate and division. Very sad that this actually works and otherwise normal and rational people can be made into hateful and irrational ones. I can understand these normal people becoming angry and counter trolling. Oh well as long as we remember to try and ignore the trolls and refute claims with reason and good tone. The normal people will also calm down a level and better discussions may be had.

Our primary educations scores are abysmal, I blame greater focus on rote learning and next to nothing on critical thinking. Why is it, that despite 60+ years and prevalent options (teaching methodologies) across the globe, we still cannot improve such a vital section of our education sector.

To be honest I think there is many similarity in Asian learning methods for younger people below university. We focus a lot on rote learning and memorization. I think this is good and bad. I don't buy the western blame that all Asians whether Indian, Chinese, or Japanese, use rote learning methods to get to university and onwards. This is good and bad.

Sometimes memorization and information is useful. We are all capable of great intelligence and as long as students are being asked to think outside the normal memorization patterns, the information they get from the memorization can be useful. I'm also an engineer and I can say that Chinese primary and high school has A LOT of memorization methods of learning. This is often so wasteful of time and ability. But it also has certain parts that focus on non-linear thinking and our maths subjects teaching can be very good. It isn't all simply follow methods. Many entrance exam questions test ability to think rather than what a student knows. Similar to maths olympiad questions. But our English curriculum is 100% memorization.

At the beginning of introducing new concepts, Chinese maths and science schools teach memorize info and always say "acceptance before understanding". So A LOT of time is given to rote learning and applying method and using follow the rules. But after that step, they also then focus on understand the rules and think about how and why they exist, then they test higher thinking like how can students apply rules and apply subtle ways to change the rules for different real world problems. People think Chinese school and often all Asian schools only do step 1 because so much time and effort is spent on step 1. Of course our average and below average students can barely handle step 1.

I think many parts of Asia are the same. Koreans also have heavy emphasize on rote learning method especially to create focus and the right attitude to learning in young people. To teach them learning is uncomfortable and hard and often involves trivial exercises and practice practice practice. The smart Indian people I know from my time working overseas, also tell me their teaching is so similar to our's and to be honest both Chinese and Indian engineers were looked down on in Australia but their engineers were the worst and made so many stupid errors. We just looked at each other and rolled our eyes at their arrogance.

Some good aspects and some bad. But some UK schools apparently have looked at introducing Chinese maths curriculum and textbook to take the useful parts. Indian teaching I feel must be quite similar to rest of Asia where we also place importance on a student's ability to learn and remember many useless knowledge and hoping the process of learning and memorizing can adapt to application and non-linear higher end thinking. This is the Asian way I guess. And has been for many centuries and even millenia. But Indian old philosophy schools and Chinese ones also placed great importance on thought and how to think too. Which shows we are all capable of what westerners say we are not capable of. Otherwise so many Asian and South Asian people in western universities and make up elites of western universities and their organizations. Cannot be possible if we are all stupid robots who only memorize.
 
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First show me the data you are talking about.

Again, US ministry has declared the profession of various ethnicity in US. Indians top in Engineering, Software professionals, doctors etc. Chinese top in Chef in restaurateur followed by clerk and other medicare jobs. In this thread itself, the reference of Income of various ethnicity is cited. you can scroll two pages back and check yourself.
Now do not please tell me that though Chinese are highly qualified, they are chef because they love for cooking and delivering Pizza.
 
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Again, US ministry has declared the profession of various ethnicity in US. Indians top in Engineering, Software professionals, doctors etc. Chinese top in Chef in restaurateur followed by clerk and other medicare jobs. In this thread itself, the reference of Income of various ethnicity is cited. you can scroll two pages back and check yourself.
Now do not please tell me that though Chinese are highly qualified, they are chef because they love for cooking and delivering Pizza.

There are Chinese of various economic strata in US, many of them are doing much better in terms of Science and Engineering than average Indian grad in US. I have been teaching a subject of Semiconductor physics and Microfabrication in my university, and I have met many brilliant and below average Chinese in the class, same is with Indians.

The major disasvantage of Chinese students in the class is their language, so most of them feel shy to interact in the class.
 
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Exactly same as me. Sometimes I get low and counter troll. I sometimes feel the trolls are done deliberately and some sort of plan going on to create more hate and division. Very sad that this actually works and otherwise normal and rational people can be made into hateful and irrational ones. I can understand these normal people becoming angry and counter trolling. Oh well as long as we remember to try and ignore the trolls and refute claims with reason and good tone. The normal people will also calm down a level and better discussions may be had.



To be honest I think there is many similarity in Asian learning methods for younger people below university. We focus a lot on rote learning and memorization. I think this is good and bad. I don't buy the western blame that all Asians whether Indian, Chinese, or Japanese, use rote learning methods to get to university and onwards. This is good and bad.

Sometimes memorization and information is useful. We are all capable of great intelligence and as long as students are being asked to think outside the normal memorization patterns, the information they get from the memorization can be useful. I'm also an engineer and I can say that Chinese primary and high school has A LOT of memorization methods of learning. This is often so wasteful of time and ability. But it also has certain parts that focus on non-linear thinking and our maths subjects teaching can be very good. It isn't all simply follow methods. Many entrance exam questions test ability to think rather than what a student knows. Similar to maths olympiad questions. But our English curriculum is 100% memorization.

At the beginning of introducing new concepts, Chinese maths and science schools teach memorize info and always say "acceptance before understanding". So A LOT of time is given to rote learning and applying method and using follow the rules. But after that step, they also then focus on understand the rules and think about how and why they exist, then they test higher thinking like how can students apply rules and apply subtle ways to change the rules for different real world problems. People think Chinese school and often all Asian schools only do step 1 because so much time and effort is spent on step 1. Of course our average and below average students can barely handle step 1.

I think many parts of Asia are the same. Koreans also have heavy emphasize on rote learning method especially to create focus and the right attitude to learning in young people. To teach them learning is uncomfortable and hard and often involves trivial exercises and practice practice practice. The smart Indian people I know from my time working overseas, also tell me their teaching is so similar to our's and to be honest both Chinese and Indian engineers were looked down on in Australia but their engineers were the worst and made so many stupid errors. We just looked at each other and rolled our eyes at their arrogance.

Some good aspects and some bad. But some UK schools apparently have looked at introducing Chinese maths curriculum and textbook to take the useful parts. Indian teaching I feel must be quite similar to rest of Asia where we also place importance on a student's ability to learn and remember many useless knowledge and hoping the process of learning and memorizing can adapt to application and non-linear higher end thinking. This is the Asian way I guess. And has been for many centuries and even millenia. But Indian old philosophy schools and Chinese ones also placed great importance on thought and how to think too. Which shows we are all capable of what westerners say we are not capable of. Otherwise so many Asian and South Asian people in western universities and make up elites of western universities and their organizations. Cannot be possible if we are all stupid robots who only memorize.
Well put.
However, I would like to point out that with our population size, till higher secondary level there is this one size fits all approach which I was alluding to in my earlier post, this becomes a disadvantage at levels where critical and inquisitive approach are needed. Successful individuals under such systems are testament to their own skills or were suited to it, but a sizable number do not find it easy, it alienates more than accepts. Students today look at critical subjects (majorly maths related) as something to pass in and be done with, those who find joy delving in it are a minority with no space for them to pursue thier passions. This must be changed.

A system where a multivariate approach (different methodologies for different student) catered to individual needs must be constructed.

The talent and smarts are there, but what use is a diamond buried 10 feet deep.
 
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Well put.
However, I would like to point out that with our population size, till higher secondary level there is this one size fits all approach which I was alluding to in my earlier post, this becomes a disadvantage at levels where critical and inquisitive approach are needed. Successful individuals under such systems are testament to their own skills or were suited to it, but a sizable number do not find it easy, it alienates more than accepts. Students today look at critical subjects (majorly maths related) as something to pass in and be done with, those who find joy delving in it are a minority with no space for them to pursue thier passions. This must be changed.

A system where a multivariate approach (different methodologies for different student) catered to individual needs must be constructed.

The talent and smarts are there, but what use is a diamond buried 10 feet deep.

I think I understand what you say. This is quite true but unfortunately at least for Chinese government and education department, they have a lot of people to school and cannot promise high standard for everyone especially in poorer provinces. So they come solve the problem with what you say is one size fits all approach. This really does make most students into valueless individual but good for factory work and smaller duties. While the schooling system looks for promising talent and they do reward them with scholarship and move them to better classes, it is rare and most country side students do not get such privileges even if they have good talents at young age.

Unfortunately this is true more because of money and how to spend money on schooling. While the government knows schooling is important to get right, they do not solve the problem with right procedure even if their attitude is acceptable. A lot of funding does go into schooling but there is a huge difference between schooling quality in high end and low end. This isn't true for western countries where the quality is quite standard and of a decent standard. If China has the luxury of creating an efficient machine for selecting talent and cultivating talents while maintaining decent standard for rest of youngsters, it would. But for many reasons this isn't really done until university level. I feel the government is confident the current system is good enough just because there are so many people anyway. They fail to understand the unrealized potential that still exists and creating new industries maybe can expand these public policies into becoming more open minded about what changes to make in education. It is still thinking in terms of "where to get large population to do the factory work and manufacturing."

I'm not sure how India is like but both countries seem to share the common large population but the difference is India's young are growing in numbers while China's generations are not having as many children anymore. This means in future, there will be diverging directions for both countries. I think Chinese government's plan for this is to wait until same resources can be given to smaller number size and improve quality that way.
 
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I think I understand what you say. This is quite true but unfortunately at least for Chinese government and education department, they have a lot of people to school and cannot promise high standard for everyone especially in poorer provinces. So they come solve the problem with what you say is one size fits all approach. This really does make most students into valueless individual but good for factory work and smaller duties. While the schooling system looks for promising talent and they do reward them with scholarship and move them to better classes, it is rare and most country side students do not get such privileges even if they have good talents at young age.

Unfortunately this is true more because of money and how to spend money on schooling. While the government knows schooling is important to get right, they do not solve the problem with right procedure even if their attitude is acceptable. A lot of funding does go into schooling but there is a huge difference between schooling quality in high end and low end. This isn't true for western countries where the quality is quite standard and of a decent standard. If China has the luxury of creating an efficient machine for selecting talent and cultivating talents while maintaining decent standard for rest of youngsters, it would. But for many reasons this isn't really done until university level. I feel the government is confident the current system is good enough just because there are so many people anyway. They fail to understand the unrealized potential that still exists and creating new industries maybe can expand these public policies into becoming more open minded about what changes to make in education. It is still thinking in terms of "where to get large population to do the factory work and manufacturing."

I'm not sure how India is like but both countries seem to share the common large population but the difference is India's young are growing in numbers while China's generations are not having as many children anymore. This means in future, there will be diverging directions for both countries. I think Chinese government's plan for this is to wait until same resources can be given to smaller number size and improve quality that way.

Well said.
 
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The only advantage these Indian unis have is English. If those Chinese top schools teach in pure English, your IT industry would be dead. :D

Well sincerely, who and what is then stopping them from doing that ?? :-)
 
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