If Pakistan had money would the western countries sell their weapons to us?

[SABRE]

For Pakistan becoming a nuclear power. What else? Are we even arguing on this? Damn, we got a long way to go in realising who our friend and enemies are.

I mean, yeah, I can argue a little bit ... but only if you want to. But in summary, yes, nukes were the issue. Who actually fanned the issue is a different story.

 

[Dalit]

I mean, yeah, I can argue a little bit ... but only if you want to. But in summary, yes, nukes were the issue. Who actually fanned the issue is a different story.

There was no fanning. What is so difficult to understand about Westerners not approving any Muslim country becoming a nuclear power. This is not about Pakistan. It is about any Muslim country acquiring nuclear capability. It is that simple really. There is no rocket science here.

You know very well what Western diplomatic enclaves do in Pakistan. They are not in Pakistan for charity. Their primary job here is to gather intel on our nukes. Let's not kid ourselves.

The Western countries discourage their citizens to travel to Pakistan, but are present in full force in their embassies. Some Western countries are building mega embassies in Pakistan. They keep an army of spies and soldiers in their embassies. Why? Isn't this contradictory you ever wonder? It is contradictory, but it has a reason. You are smart enough to fill the dots.

 

[HttpError]

Absolutely! LM would have been offering to set up an assembly line in Pakistan.

Would be amazing if we could assemble F16 Block 70/72 in Pakistan. It would have sent shivers down the spines of our enemies but our corrupt leaders have looted the wealth of this nation. Just look at our Jahil awam they are busy feeding steroids to our cows and are competing who has the biggest cow for Qurbani while Elon Musk is busy sending Starlink to the upper-atmosphere.

 

[LeGenD]

India is trying to benefit from all sides. They can do it for the time being. The Americans and Europeans know this. They remain mum because right now they need India. India will get S-400 and the so-called principled Westerners will look the other way. As if nothing happened. These are the same Westerners that were throwing fits at Turkey acquiring S-400.

Bro,

Understand a few things.

Deep down, Americans and Indians do not love each other. They are not best buddies or anything of the sort. It is just that American interests align with that of Indian vis-a-vis China, and US wish to keep India in QUAD. However, Indians being Indians, will not buy into American promises just like that. Indians continue to SHOP in all markets including Western.

Now; Pakistan and US have reached an understanding of sorts vis-a-vis Afghanistan, and this development alarmed Indians. You see why I mentioned that things are not so cut-and-dry in foreign diplomacy?

Pakistan - US relationship have a dynamic of its own. In spite of so much propaganda in the air, US remains largest EXPORT destination for Pakistani goods? Why is this? Why American embassy exist in Pakistan?

Pakistan and US have bilateral channels of communication. Do no underestimate Pakistani CARDS and OPTIONS in this matter.

WE have our share of 'problems' with USA but not to the extent of being sheer ENMITY unless WE are desperate for it which is something WE are not equipped to deal with. Pakistan just need to PLAY its cards, right. World does not end at US - India dealings. Foreign diplomacy is not conducted with kind of mindset.

There are ample hints of potential offers made to Pakistan in this very thread. Go through them all again.

 

[fhk86khan1]

I fully agree with the above. The Westerners became very sour after Pak nuclear adventure. Not to even mention the terrorism charges over the past decades.

We became the punching bag the moment we went nuclear. LOL we laughed it off. Even if the Americans offered us thousands of F-16s it couldn't equal our nuclear status.

Respectfully disagree.

In the 1990s the Americans knew our economy was broke and that the F-16 was our only reliable delivery system for a nuclear bomb.

Western companies are not stupid...they forecast your economic growth and potential future deals you can do with them....we frankly at the time had nothing to offer.

When you have purchasing power...and demonstrate that your your economy is growing...you are in a much better position to leverage favorable conditions within contracts...and to actually enforce punishment on a supplier or a country should they break those contracts.

When the U.S halted our F-16 deliveries...they knew damn well we had no options but to ask nicely and hope for a different answer. We had no means to enforce our contract. We did not have an alternative because we could not afford an alternative!

 

[Dalit]

Respectfully disagree.

In the 1990s the Americans knew our economy was broke and that the F-16 was our only reliable delivery system for a nuclear bomb.

Western companies are not stupid...they forecast your economic growth and potential future deals you can do with them....we frankly at the time had nothing to offer.

When you have purchasing power...and demonstrate that your your economy is growing...you are in a much better position to leverage favorable conditions within contracts...and to actually enforce punishment on a supplier or a country should they break those contracts.

When the U.S halted our F-16 deliveries...they knew damn well we had no options but to ask nicely and hope for a different answer. We had no means to enforce our contract. We did not have an alternative because we could not afford an alternative!

The Americans sold the F-16s as a bribe to fight against the Russians. Even back then we didn't have a super economy. Pakistan wanted F-16s in exchange for fighting the Cold War. This is a well-documented fact. The Americans gave us the F-16s reluctantly. The Americans had no choice.

 

[Dalit]

Bro,

Understand a few things.

Deep down, Americans and Indians do not love each other. They are not best buddies or anything of the sort. It is just that American interests align with that of Indian vis-a-vis China, and US wish to keep India in QUAD. However, Indians being Indians, will not buy into American promises just like that. Indians continue to SHOP in all markets including Western.

Now; Pakistan and US have reached an understanding of sorts vis-a-vis Afghanistan, and this development alarmed Indians. You see why I mentioned that things are not so cut-and-dry in foreign diplomacy?

Pakistan - US relationship have a dynamic of its own. In spite of so much propaganda in the air, US remains largest EXPORT destination for Pakistani goods? Why is this? Why American embassy exist in Pakistan?

Pakistan and US have bilateral channels of communication. Do no underestimate Pakistani CARDS and OPTIONS in this matter.

WE have our share of 'problems' with USA but not to the extent of being sheer ENMITY unless WE are desperate for it which is something WE are not equipped to deal with. Pakistan just need to PLAY its cards, right. World does not end at US - India dealings. Foreign diplomacy is not conducted with kind of mindset.

There are ample hints of potential offers made to Pakistan in this very thread. Go through them all again.

The Americans realise that Pakistan is geographically an important country. They cannot afford to alienate Pakistan. Plain and simple.

After all the accusations during WoT the Americans were very willing to break relations. They simply couldn't for the aforementioned reasons.

 

[LeGenD]

The Americans realise that Pakistan is geographically an important country. They cannot afford to alienate Pakistan. Plain and simple.

After all the accusations during WoT the Americans were very willing to break relations. They simply couldn't for the aforementioned reasons.

Yes. Now you are getting the point.

Now it is up to Pakistani diplomats to do what they are supposed to do; make this dynamic work - this is to our advantage as well.

 

[Dalit]

Yes. Now you are getting the point.

Now it is up to Pakistani diplomats to do what they are supposed to do; make this dynamic work - this is to our advantage as well.

Difficult in my opinion. The US Pakistan relationship is limited. It is transactional. We won't be able to reap any benefits and neither won't the Americans. It is marred by mistrust.

 

[mig25]

Absolutely and my view is exactly the opposite of my fellow member above ;-). Pakistan can buy more F-16s, AH-1Zs etc. if it has the money. This is a simple fact. Pakistan is under no sanctions regime. Pakistan has working ties with all of the EU countries and the United States. In 2005, when the order was placed for the F-16s, the US side was very open to larger numbers (with option to go to 36 for blk52s), however all of it comes down to money.

If the Saudis and Emeratis can buy all the gear they need from the West while waging a war in Yemen, why could Pakistan not do so as long as it had the funds?

We need to stop making victims out of ourselves. The world is not out to get Pakistan. We need to have the fiscal space to make such purchases. All of the defense industry in the West needs this money and they have the clout to push these deals through their governments.

Partly correct.
The size of the militaries and the total amount in dollar purchases matters more. Let us imagine a scenario where India is going to be billed 100billion in USD and Pakistan wants a 25 billion purchase. Since now India and Pakistan are enemies - India protests and threatens to cancel the 100 billion order, will the US take a 75 billion loss?

This is of course a scenario where both want to buy from the same country. 25 billion will still get equivalent tech from another player as long as the player is not heavily influenced by the player making the 100 billion.

It's not very simple but money does buys options which Pakistan needs the most at this moment. It seems to be putting all eggs in one basket with respect to military purchases and strategic decisions.

Russia in this case should be the easiest country to buy for Pakistan. I do not see any thing substantial that they can sell India after the S-400 purchase is completed.

 

[cloud4000]

Let me make this very simple: MONEY TALKS - BS WALKS

Military-to-Military contacts develop on professional grounds, and can have an impact on foreign policy decisions.

If I am not wrong, UK had no issue selling Typhoons to Pakistan.

US will not have issue selling even F-16 Block 70/72 to Pakistan. Even Obama administration which did not see Pakistan in positive light, was willing to sell F-16 Block 52+ to Pakistan but on the condition that these should be PAID FOR and not through AID PACKAGE.

American Military Industrial Complex (MIC) has a BIG HEART, mind you.

A lot would on OFFER to Pakistan if WE show HUGE SUM OF MONEY.

Even joint-venture of sorts would be on the cards.

Business.

You need to define what exactly is "HUGE SUM OF MONEY." Are we talking about Gulf states like amounts? And can you really discount the geo-political realities of South Asia? Yes, US will sell weapons to Pakistan for hard cash, but will it give Pakistan, a Chinese ally, an upper hand against India?

I doubt it. Pakistan's options will be limited.

 

[LeGenD]

Difficult in my opinion. The US Pakistan relationship is limited. It is transactional. We won't be able to reap any benefits and neither won't the Americans. It is marred by mistrust.

Bro,

Of-course; WE are not anglo-saxons. PAK - US engagement cannot be all pinky and rosy - it never was to begin with. This was always a challenging partnership for both camps to maintain with limited people-to-people contact in the mix. But both camps managed to find common grounds to work with from time-to-time. Pakistan has certainly benefited from this dynamic in different ways including being allowed to become a nuclear power (Americans looked the other way) and receiving IMF bailout packages to keep our dysfunctional economy afloat and prevent collapse. They also played a role in improving education, infrastructure, and ICT sectors of Pakistan.

This bilateral dealing is complicated due to issues in our camp as well such as prevalence of corruption in Pakistani bureaucracy, societal imperfections (terrorism), and political sellouts who offer false promises to foreigners in exchange for making properties abroad. I am sure you understand how bad Pakistani political situation has been, and still is. Even in the present, Pakistan is making do with an IMF bailout package and trying to put its house in order.

WE have our share of complaints but so do they.

Pakistan is still a big and powerful country with geopolitical significance of its own. This is a reality which nobody can ignore and/or overlook for long-term.

PAK - US engagement can find new grounds to work with - future is full of possibilities if WE come to believe in ourselves, succeed in putting our own house in order, and hope for the best.

Read this article: https://www.thenews.com.pk/print/681417-marked-improvement-witnessed-in-pak-us-ties

If Pakistan and US could reach an understanding in Afghanistan (to Indian shock), more can be done.

https://www.state.gov/u-s-relations-with-pakistan/

It is easy to disengage and create new enemies. It is difficult to build and manage relationships. Isn't this true in personal capacity as well?

So please broaden your mind and hope. If you are living abroad, try to build connections for Pakistan in there. Pakistani nationals abroad are potential leverage points for Pakistan to build and maintain relationships with numerous foreign countries. Understand this.

And one more thing - Indians will cloud your mind. Do not pay heed. Stick to your guns.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Yes, but -- and @SQ8 may agree -- the reality of Pakistani "leadership" is that if we had GCC-type oil/gas money, we would look a lot like Nigeria and Venezuela than say Qatar or UAE. So, we'll still be broke.

Why?

So if there's a lot of oil/gas around, our elite will siphon it off to Dubai/London, and to keep our population quiet, pay them stipends (which our nation will use to import luxuries they can't afford) until we reach a monetary crisis.

How do I know this? Just look back to how we abused US aid.

 

[alphapak]

It depends on whether they see you as enemy or ally. China has alot of money
can they buy the F35?

It is better for Pak to speed up production of Jf17 thunder block 3 and also go for
HQ9C batteries.

 

[Mrc]

No

But pakistan will lose that money signing contracts like several times before