If Pakistan Fails

[gogbot]

Do I have to sing vande mataram every day in school after that

Whats wrong with vande matarm ?

 

[Gin ka Pakistan]

Whats wrong with vande matarm ?

And What Is My Issue With Vande Mataram? | Indian Muslims

And What Is My Issue With Vande Mataram? by by Mohib Ahmad

Vande Mataram issue is again hogging the limelight and political denominations of all hue are palnning to make a killing. I have nothing to say of them. Such people have been squarely criticized at this blog and elsewhere. For me the issue is that of an individual’s right to practise his religion and be a patriotic citizen at the same time. Suppose I don’t sing Vande Mataram because it clashes with my religious beliefs. Would that make me any less Indian? Would that weaken my resolve to fight and die for the country? More importantly, as a citizen of a democratic society, do I have a choice to to say no to things that are not mandatory, and by not doing them I am not causing any harm to others? We talk about freedom of religion and secularism all the time but still have a blinkered view of them. Why do I need to adhere by somebody else’s benchmark of patriotism. If we are still thinking in terms of society and not individuals and expect everyone to submerge into some greater-common-patriotism then how different are we from let’s say China or Saudi Arabia. Does an individual has the space to stand alone and be different in our society? Would we have that in 10-20 years?

As an Indian Muslim I have to prove my patriotism to others, many times and many times over. A bomb blast, no Sir, please believe us, we did not do it, we condemn it in strongest terms. Does anyone asks hard questions about the failure of our intelligence apparatus, about how many people have ran away to other countries after selling sensitive information, about how it has compromised the security of the common citizen? Vir Sangvi writes about our amazing ability to gloss over facts in lieu of our anti-terror paranoia. Oh and these guys are not singing Vande Mataram. Didn’t I tell you, they are unpatriotic. There loyalties lie elsewhere. Come on, let us make them sing Vande Mataram.

Pankaj Vohra, political editor of Hindustan Times has written a piece on the Vande Mataram issue. He seems to have presumed a lot. I would like to address some of the issues he raises in his article.

1.) Debate over the issue is settled:
No, it is not. Had it been so, Vande Mataram would have been our national anthem and not national song. Muslims have had genuine issues with the text of the song and the context in which it was originally written and consquently used in Anand Math. The committee under Nehru in 1937 which Pankaj cites in his article has this to say of the issue:

“Taking all things into consideration, therefore, the Committee recommend that, wherever Bande Mataram is sung at national gatherings, only the first two stanzas should be sung, with perfect freedom to the organisers to sing any other song of an unobjectionable character, in addition to, or in the place of, the Bande Mataram song.”

The Constituent Assembly reached a compromise decision to accord it the status of national song. Gandhi ji advised Muslims to appreciate its historic association but counselled against any imposition. “No doubt, every act… must be purely voluntary on the part of either partner,” he said at Alipore on August 23, 1947. Now, we have the President of the largest opposition party in India saying that it would be made mandatory in the BJP ruled states.

Bottomline: Vande Mataram can’t and shoudn’t be enforced, neither on an individual nor on a community.

2.) It is AIMPLB and mad mullahs again:
Now we are increasingly seeing educated Muslims that do not toe the line of either All India Personal Law Board (AIMPLB) or rent-a-fatwa-mullahs and are willing to stand up and speak out for themselves. I am totally against mullahs rendering fatwas on the issue. Forcing someone not to sing Vande Mataram is akin to forcing someone to sing the song. Individuals should be able to decide for themselves. I have had my differences with both these groups. This is not about them, this is about me.

Bottomline: I don’t really care what is their stand on the issue.

3.) Vande Mataram is secular:
It is not. Had it been so, there was no need to expunge the last three stanzas of the song. People are acting as if the first two stanzas were written by someone else for a totally different purpose than the last three stanzas. It was basically a song meant to arouse the sentiments of Bengali Hindus against the ruling Muslims by using religious imagery. Nirad C. Chaudhuri writes, “The historical romances of Bankim Chatterjee and Ramesh Chandra Dutt glorified Hindu rebellion against Muslim rule and showed the Muslims in a correspondingly poor light. Chatterjee was positively and fiercely anti-Muslim. We were eager readers of these romances and we readily absorbed their spirit.��? It is true that the song acquired a nationalistic tone during the freedom struggle. It still does not absolve it of its history. For the right-wing backers of the song, this is just a start. Already there are talks of why only two stanzas, why not the entire song? And Rajeev Srinivasan is arguing “mohammedans in india should follow indian norms. after all, they expect indians in saudi arabia to follow saudi norms.” Not many years ago, BJP government in Uttar Pradesh tried to make the recital of Saraswati Vandana compulsory in schools.

Bottomlime: All this makes me wonder what ‘being Indian’ translates to them and their ‘real’ intentions.

4.) Hey its just Sankritized Bengali, in Urdu it is just fine:
Pankaj Vohra quotes an Urdu translation by none other than Arif Muhammad Khan (messiah of Muslims, beacon of hope, harbinger of glad tidings and a surrendered member to BJP). Being a former Union minister and President of A.M.U. are cited as his qualifications. I have heard about sarkaari poets, we have had our fair share of them. But this is the first time I am hearing about a sarkaari translator. I am not a Sankrit pandit (I read it till class 12th) but I am sure what Vande Mataram would translate to in Urdu. Again, people are trying to take two stanzas, out of text and out of context, and making it appear like well-what’s-the-problem-with-it?

Bottomline: The last thing India needs to progress in the 21st century is sarkaari patriotism.

Amidst all this, I have hope for the future. Many of the popular Indian bloggers on the web have supported the individual freedom position. Many Indians who were not aware of the original text and context of the song and the reason why Muslims are uncomfortable with the song are taking a more nuanced position. The only way forward for our country is the Gandhian position of mutual respect and no imposition. Not singing Vande Mataram does not lessen my committment to my country and I would always fight for the right of my fellow Indians (of whatever religion) to recite the song. Others should respect mine.

P.S. Some quotes have been taken from A.G. Noorani’s article, How secular is Vande Mataram?. If you have not read it, please do so. It is worth it.

 

[gogbot]

BJP will never want that With Pak 170 Million and 160 Million Indian Muslims they will never ever win election again.
Last five election were neck to neck, I wish luck to BJP

Congress is calling the shots today.
And that's who the India people want in power.

The last elect was in clear favor of the Congress coalition.

They almost had full house majority without the need of any of their Coalition partners.
This is the strongest Indian Government we have had since Indira Gandhi

No one is going to vote for the BJP unless, Congress losses PUblic faith to such an extent they would be forced to vote fo rthe only opposition party available

 

[Gin ka Pakistan]

Whats wrong with vande matarm ?

Indian Muslium fatwa against vande mataram
Fatwa issued against 'Vande Mataram' | Mumbai | India

 

[arya-hind]

you know every Indian sing with proud

and Indian means Indian Hindu + Muslim + Sikh + Cristian +all other

for you (Gin ka Pakistan)

first clean ur heart and ur mind brother and you will see the good thing

nervy thing is possible we can join again if we want peace and happy and all the good thing of life

jai hind

 

[Gin ka Pakistan]

Congress is calling the shots today.
And that's who the India people want in power.

The last elect was in clear favor of the Congress coalition.

They almost had full house majority without the need of any of their Coalition partners.
This is the strongest Indian Government we have had since Indira Gandhi

No one is going to vote for the BJP unless, Congress losses PUblic faith to such an extent they would be forced to vote fo rthe only opposition party available

Before the election US twisted Pakistan arms to give statements which went in favor of Congress, any hostility between the neighbors and Congress gets tough time from Pakistan (if USA packs and run from the region and we don't have Mr 10&#37 and being seen as weak to Pakistan in Afghanistan, BJP will be back.

 

[arya-hind]

Before the election US twisted Pakistan arms to give statements which went in favor of Congress, any hostility between the neighbors and Congress gets tough time from Pakistan (if USA packs and run from the region and we don't have Mr 10%) and being seen as week to Pakistan in Afghanistan, BJP will be back.

you know i am sue in your dream you just see one thing

bjp bjp bjp

ahh brother think good and see good if you want to make your life happy


you what is your problem you have just hate and anger in your heart and that hate is distrubbing you

pls wakeup early in the mooring and go for morning walk and see how beautiful is the world just see the birds ,kids , flowers and all the good thing your heart will be clean

jai hind

 

[white_pawn]

There are very less chances of Pakistan being a failed state, bcoz if its not possible for GOP to control the situation in Pakistan then the Military will take over as its has already happen a lots of time. And they know how to do so.

Secondly regarding reunification of India and Pakistan, its never going to happen and should not happen, bcoz it was ment to happen and whatever happened was good for both of us. So let it be that way.

This is my opinion, other may differ it.

 

[Gin ka Pakistan]

you know i am sue in your dream you just see one thing

bjp bjp bjp

ahh brother think good and see good if you want to make your life happy


you what is your problem you have just hate and anger in your heart and that hate is distrubbing you

pls wakeup early in the mooring and go for morning walk and see how beautiful is the world just see the birds ,kids , flowers and all the good thing your heart will be clean

jai hind

Sorry Sir don't Use hate label for me I love BJP and they are Indians
I may not agree with you but will never hate you (Thats the promise I made to all my girl friends)

 

[gogbot]

And What Is My Issue With Vande Mataram? | Indian Muslims

And What Is My Issue With Vande Mataram? by by Mohib Ahmad

Vande Mataram issue is again hogging the limelight and political denominations of all hue are palnning to make a killing. I have nothing to say of them. Such people have been squarely criticized at this blog and elsewhere. For me the issue is that of an individual’s right to practise his religion and be a patriotic citizen at the same time. Suppose I don’t sing Vande Mataram because it clashes with my religious beliefs. Would that make me any less Indian? Would that weaken my resolve to fight and die for the country? More importantly, as a citizen of a democratic society, do I have a choice to to say no to things that are not mandatory, and by not doing them I am not causing any harm to others? We talk about freedom of religion and secularism all the time but still have a blinkered view of them. Why do I need to adhere by somebody else’s benchmark of patriotism. If we are still thinking in terms of society and not individuals and expect everyone to submerge into some greater-common-patriotism then how different are we from let’s say China or Saudi Arabia. Does an individual has the space to stand alone and be different in our society? Would we have that in 10-20 years?

As an Indian Muslim I have to prove my patriotism to others, many times and many times over. A bomb blast, no Sir, please believe us, we did not do it, we condemn it in strongest terms. Does anyone asks hard questions about the failure of our intelligence apparatus, about how many people have ran away to other countries after selling sensitive information, about how it has compromised the security of the common citizen? Vir Sangvi writes about our amazing ability to gloss over facts in lieu of our anti-terror paranoia. Oh and these guys are not singing Vande Mataram. Didn’t I tell you, they are unpatriotic. There loyalties lie elsewhere. Come on, let us make them sing Vande Mataram.

Pankaj Vohra, political editor of Hindustan Times has written a piece on the Vande Mataram issue. He seems to have presumed a lot. I would like to address some of the issues he raises in his article.

1.) Debate over the issue is settled:
No, it is not. Had it been so, Vande Mataram would have been our national anthem and not national song. Muslims have had genuine issues with the text of the song and the context in which it was originally written and consquently used in Anand Math. The committee under Nehru in 1937 which Pankaj cites in his article has this to say of the issue:

“Taking all things into consideration, therefore, the Committee recommend that, wherever Bande Mataram is sung at national gatherings, only the first two stanzas should be sung, with perfect freedom to the organisers to sing any other song of an unobjectionable character, in addition to, or in the place of, the Bande Mataram song.”

The Constituent Assembly reached a compromise decision to accord it the status of national song. Gandhi ji advised Muslims to appreciate its historic association but counselled against any imposition. “No doubt, every act… must be purely voluntary on the part of either partner,” he said at Alipore on August 23, 1947. Now, we have the President of the largest opposition party in India saying that it would be made mandatory in the BJP ruled states.

Bottomline: Vande Mataram can’t and shoudn’t be enforced, neither on an individual nor on a community.

2.) It is AIMPLB and mad mullahs again:
Now we are increasingly seeing educated Muslims that do not toe the line of either All India Personal Law Board (AIMPLB) or rent-a-fatwa-mullahs and are willing to stand up and speak out for themselves. I am totally against mullahs rendering fatwas on the issue. Forcing someone not to sing Vande Mataram is akin to forcing someone to sing the song. Individuals should be able to decide for themselves. I have had my differences with both these groups. This is not about them, this is about me.

Bottomline: I don’t really care what is their stand on the issue.

3.) Vande Mataram is secular:
It is not. Had it been so, there was no need to expunge the last three stanzas of the song. People are acting as if the first two stanzas were written by someone else for a totally different purpose than the last three stanzas. It was basically a song meant to arouse the sentiments of Bengali Hindus against the ruling Muslims by using religious imagery. Nirad C. Chaudhuri writes, “The historical romances of Bankim Chatterjee and Ramesh Chandra Dutt glorified Hindu rebellion against Muslim rule and showed the Muslims in a correspondingly poor light. Chatterjee was positively and fiercely anti-Muslim. We were eager readers of these romances and we readily absorbed their spirit.��? It is true that the song acquired a nationalistic tone during the freedom struggle. It still does not absolve it of its history. For the right-wing backers of the song, this is just a start. Already there are talks of why only two stanzas, why not the entire song? And Rajeev Srinivasan is arguing “mohammedans in india should follow indian norms. after all, they expect indians in saudi arabia to follow saudi norms.” Not many years ago, BJP government in Uttar Pradesh tried to make the recital of Saraswati Vandana compulsory in schools.

Bottomlime: All this makes me wonder what ‘being Indian’ translates to them and their ‘real’ intentions.

4.) Hey its just Sankritized Bengali, in Urdu it is just fine:
Pankaj Vohra quotes an Urdu translation by none other than Arif Muhammad Khan (messiah of Muslims, beacon of hope, harbinger of glad tidings and a surrendered member to BJP). Being a former Union minister and President of A.M.U. are cited as his qualifications. I have heard about sarkaari poets, we have had our fair share of them. But this is the first time I am hearing about a sarkaari translator. I am not a Sankrit pandit (I read it till class 12th) but I am sure what Vande Mataram would translate to in Urdu. Again, people are trying to take two stanzas, out of text and out of context, and making it appear like well-what’s-the-problem-with-it?

Bottomline: The last thing India needs to progress in the 21st century is sarkaari patriotism.

Amidst all this, I have hope for the future. Many of the popular Indian bloggers on the web have supported the individual freedom position. Many Indians who were not aware of the original text and context of the song and the reason why Muslims are uncomfortable with the song are taking a more nuanced position. The only way forward for our country is the Gandhian position of mutual respect and no imposition. Not singing Vande Mataram does not lessen my committment to my country and I would always fight for the right of my fellow Indians (of whatever religion) to recite the song. Others should respect mine.

P.S. Some quotes have been taken from A.G. Noorani’s article, How secular is Vande Mataram?. If you have not read it, please do so. It is worth it.

Dude hit me with the Summary that article is too long and convoluted.

If you had ever listen to the song. It shows nothing but secular Ideals.
And love for mother India.

Many Muslim organizations in India have declared fatwas against singing Vande Mataram, due to the song giving a notion of worshipping Mother India, which they consider to be shirk (idolatry)

IF people feel Singing the song comprises their Religious ideals so be it. But that does not mean there is something wrong with. IT's not the National anthem of India, its the national Song. The question of weather u have to sing it or not is matter of public debate. I certainly would not force u to sing it. The song only represents the secular ideal of India.

From my point of view as a self declared Atheist. I find any concept of worship tedious( the most polite word i could find). But the song also Teaches secularism So there you have i have to tolerate religion as much as it must me.

Personally i hated the Both "Vande matarm" and "jana gana mana"(national anthem) as i child. i did not understand what they meant or their significance.

If you truly are open minded sir i would suggest you Watch the Two songs played A.R Rahaman.( well that right i onlu like the "Maa Tujhe Salaam" version of the song.sue me if if you have issues. )

 

[gogbot]

Before the election US twisted Pakistan arms to give statements which went in favor of Congress, any hostility between the neighbors and Congress gets tough time from Pakistan (if USA packs and run from the region and we don't have Mr 10%) and being seen as weak to Pakistan in Afghanistan, BJP will be back.

I shall be dammed before that Happens

People trust the congress

I am beggening to see honest people in Politics on the Congress PARTY.

no one trusts the BJP. Enough To vote for them .
With out degrading trust in congress first.
Congress has the support of the youth of India. It shall Prosper.
As long as India prospers.

 

[Gin ka Pakistan]

Dude hit me with the Summary that article is too long and convoluted.

Yaar I believe in Summary too , I don't know why articles r so long , when you can say every thing in few words why to waste Words
Do you think I may have read it all

 

[gogbot]

Yaar I believe in Summary too , I don't know why articles r so long , when you can say every thing in few words why to waste Words
Do you think I may have read it all

well im sorry you feel that way.

But i read the article did not understand what it was trying to prove or its point.

I simply asked for a Summary as to Better Understand it.

 

[Gin ka Pakistan]

well im sorry you feel that way.

But i read the article did not understand what it was trying to prove or its point.

I simply asked for a Summary as to Better Understand it.

Points
1. As an Indian Muslim I have to prove my patriotism to others,
2. Why do I need to adhere by somebody else’s benchmark of patriotism.
Bottom line
Being secular nation don't force Hindu values on me

 

[gogbot]

Points
1. As an Indian Muslim I have to prove my patriotism to others,
2. Why do I need to adhere by somebody else’s benchmark of patriotism.
Bottom line
Being secular nation don't force Hindu values on me

Well ill admit that Summary did help. With Seeing things form Some one eases POV.

But then again i would like to remind you. That i was in favor of not forcing people to sing the song.

And i can see how certain Communities may feel targeted.

But i would not call them Hindu values.Doing so is discriminatory by it self and not true. Not all Muslims feel the same. By own friends never expressed any Apprehension about the song. I my self being an Atheist have no apprehensions singing the song.

If some people do, it not only their right under a secular republic. But also a human right to hold that opinion.

Then again as i have said its a the national Song.
Not the national Anthem.
and as such if someone told be to sing Vande matarm .
I will probably just sing

"Maa Tujhe Salaam"