If India is following Israeli model in Kashmir, Pakistan needs to follow the Iranian model

[Silverblaze]

Pakistan needs a strategy that suits itself.

Why not make conscription mandatory for GB and Kashmir? Or Why not have a full corps for at least GB?
Or the least Pakistan can do is to ask OIC countries not to issue visas to non kashmiris in Occupied kashmir and not buy anything from there. Same goes with EU.

If nothing else, deploy existing forces in strike command on LOC.

Or at least fix dawn and tribune. Even a comment critical of india is held in moderation, while comments from hindus abusing the Prophet (SAW) are allowed.

Pakistan's civil bureaucracy with their branded suits and cuff links are brain dead to say it nicely.

Neither the foreign office nor the bureaucrats in it have any real ideas except bickering for posts.

Imran khan's govt (less said the better)

The military should also stop uttering sultan rahi dialogues in press releases and up the ante.

Gentlemen, Kashmir is being wrested away, the cost should be heavy.

Pakistan and India will fight once more over Kashmir. Let covid blow over first, then be ready. Education and prosperity are certainly good things but in our case, they are a means to an end, towards our destiny. Pakistan will not ever abandon its people in Kashmir. We will come for them. If you think otherwise, all the better.

Pakistan will, shall, should, could ...... Hindus are openly deciding to change the demographics and how does one change the demographics considering the hindus have a preconception of mughals having coerced hindu women to conceive their children? I leave the thinking to Pakistan's exceptionally intelligent bureaucracy.

Why didnt Pakistan's civil bureaucracy, and military plan for such a scenario? They had 70 years.

Pakistan military didn't even put existing forces on strike formations let alone raising a new corp in GB as demanded by many for sometime.

All one hears is sultan rahi dialogues from the military and help from 'enternational commoonittee take notus' from the civil bureaucracy.

A strong message to hindus must be conveyed - time is running out!

 

[imadul]

Pakistan and Kashmiris don't accept it. This is illegal and hindu apartheid will be dealt with.
When the war will be? That's the only question!!

 

[Mace]

After India passed their new law to alter the demographics of Kashmir by following the Israeli model of settlements in the West Bank, Pakistan should wake up and follow the Iranian model of hard power, force, and deterrence. Pakistan should create some strong proxies and start surrounding Indian Kashmir. Step up clandestine operations and start launching some missiles and drones to hit key military targets. Pakistan should forget about these hollow press releases and establish some real force and deterrence with missiles and drones to bring an end to Indian impunity in Kashmir. There ought to be consequences for India, the era of Pakistan allowing them to get away must end. Iran has been the most successful at putting pressure on Israel with its proxies and striking key Saudi locations which is exactly what Pakistan should do to India. When Pakistan says India has violated UN resolutions and imprisoned Kashmiris like worse than animals, India doesn't deserve an easy slap on the wrist. That deserves a hard and forceful response, and for that you need credibility on your threats. India currently thinks that Pakistan won't do anything to stop it and they are right. Pakistan needs to establish credibility. If we say we will do something, we should do it. Now is not the time for Pakistan to be afraid. Now is the time to take bold, tough, forceful, aggressive and decisive action and stop India's Israeli settler model in Kashmir in its tracks. When US killed Iran's top general, Iran didn't quietly accept it. They launched dozens of missiles at US bases in hard revenge and made sure US heard their message loud and clear. When Syria killed dozens of Turkish soldiers, Erdogan unleashed hell on Syria by drone striking anything that moved. That is what Pakistan must do to India if we are serious about gaining credibility to deliver our threats and put an end to India's impunity.

FATF regime has been brought into play more seriously recently to exactly prevent such misadventures.

This can only happen when China becomes way more powerful than US and Pak under China’s protection is given a free rein.

Cannot be ruled out completely as China’s strategic calculus includes J&K territories.

 

[Kaniska]

You are talking way too much sense.

Btw, is this really gonna change the demogrpahics in Kashmir ? There must be barely any outsiders in Kashmir Valley who must be there for more than 15 years. At least relative to the native population.

Do you really think any normal Indian is dying to that war torn place where there is no job, employment leaving their own place??? This is the kind of hype that all these Kashmiri separatist patronize in every place...Buddy...if given a chance, people love to go a place which is better than their native place...

Except some few thousands central govt employees, no one will go to Kashmir by their own will.. People go to cities like Delhi, Mumbai, Bangalore and other places...No one goes to Kashmir for settling down leaving aside their own native place...

Pakistan needs a strategy that suits itself.

Why not make conscription mandatory for GB and Kashmir? Or Why not have a full corps for at least GB?
Or the least Pakistan can do is to ask OIC countries not to issue visas to non kashmiris in Occupied kashmir and not buy anything from there. Same goes with EU.

If nothing else, deploy existing forces in strike command on LOC.

Or at least fix dawn and tribune. Even a comment critical of india is held in moderation, while comments from hindus abusing the Prophet (SAW) are allowed.

Pakistan's civil bureaucracy with their branded suits and cuff links are brain dead to say it nicely.

Neither the foreign office nor the bureaucrats in it have any real ideas except bickering for posts.

Imran khan's govt (less said the better)

The military should also stop uttering sultan rahi dialogues in press releases and up the ante.

Gentlemen, Kashmir is being wrested away, the cost should be heavy.



Pakistan will, shall, should, could ...... Hindus are openly deciding to change the demographics and how does one change the demographics considering the hindus have a preconception of mughals having coerced hindu women to conceive their children? I leave the thinking to Pakistan's exceptionally intelligent bureaucracy.

Why didnt Pakistan's civil bureaucracy, and military plan for such a scenario? They had 70 years.

Pakistan military didn't even put existing forces on strike formations let alone raising a new corp in GB as demanded by many for sometime.

All one hears is sultan rahi dialogues from the military and help from 'enternational commoonittee take notus' from the civil bureaucracy.

A strong message to hindus must be conveyed - time is running out!

Those tactics will practically not workable. Pakistan Govt is well aware of it.
The only practical scenario where India will lose Kashmir, is either by full-scale war or if Pakistan makes a deal with West, make them win at any cost and in Afganistan and in return get Kashmir from India...

Except for these 2 options, another option is China. You have to wait for China to be strong enough or Indo China relation to be so bad, that China openly supports Pakistan in war and fascilitate you in winning Kashmir...

 

[Meengla]

OP is ignoring the fact that israel is outnumbered by its opponents. India has 900,000 troops in Kashmir alone.

I would actually argue that Pakistan should have been using the Israeli doctrine for keeping a numerically superior foe at bay, by establishing political influence and maintaining a technological edge as a means of leverage against that foe.

Right intentions but not based on ground realities. Israel is a sordid extension of the West--actually a product of expulsion from the West (WW II)--into a land which some of them had the rightful right to go back to. BUT Israelis are Europeans with superior technology, educated, rational, and were (and are) backed by the might of the West, which is now because of more of the work of the Lobbies then anything else.

Numbers don't matter at all in this debate! One man with a machine gun is far more powerful against 100 men with swords charging at him. Israel has NEVER been militarily at disadvantage against the Bedouin armies!! To confirm that you should read a Merseihmer and S. Walt paper from 2006....

In contrast, both Pakistan and India are 3rd world countries. Overpopulated, resource starved because of the populations, under-educated, and militarily weak. Pakistan can't do the things Israel did and neither can India. Two apples compared with one orange.

BUT.. on the whole I agree with the OP's sentiments: The loss of Indian Occupied Kashmir if India gets away with the demographic changes is a strategic blow to Pakistan. I think gloves should come off in Pakistan, FATF or not, if (and maybe 'when') the situation comes to that...

 

[skyshadow]

Exactly, look how strong Iran is in Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, Yemen.

Iran has cornered their enemies Israel and Saudi from every direction. Pakistan needs to corner India like that.

For that, Pakistan needs innovative and creative new ideas and technologies. Pakistan should get China's help to start building artificial islands in the Indian Ocean and station missiles there pointed at India. Get 1 or 2 aircraft carriers and load them up with JF-17's and do naval exercises in Indian Ocean on Pakistani aircraft carriers with Turkey, Russia, China, and Iran. And if Indian jets dare to come close, shoot them down like Turkey last month. Turkish F-16's used sophisticated new technology to shoot down Syrian Su-24 by launching AMRAAM AIM-120C and then going invisible by turning radar off and sending datalink to the missile to a nearby 737 AWACS aircraft that guided missile towards its target. Then F-16 turned radar back on just seconds before missile impact when it was too late for the enemy. An Indian enemy aircraft would not even have a chance against us to detect what was happening if Pakistan used this new strategy.

Pakistan should also get serious about cyber warfare like Iran and start hacking and disrupting critical Indian IT and gov't infrastructure. Asymmetric warfare is the key. Use any means at your disposal to hit India where it hurts.

agreed 10000% PK in no Syria, in air you are 1 on 1 you need to be sneaky as we like to say do play the game by your adversary rules, if you want to win play it by your own rule, Iran kept off its enemy from its main land for 40 years, but its enemies are getting hit in their own soil, when revolution started we had nothing we saw an opportunity in lebanon and Iran took it they helped Hezbollah dass began a new era of allies and the rest is history i think PK should starts to move some agents around in kashmir find some fighters that are in line with you then move little weapons here little bet over there then, weapones that can not be traced back to you then boom your alias will have ballistic missile before india even find out what happened, i'm afraid you lost a good 30 years but never is too late.

you need a unit like Quds forces of IRGC they are every where in middle east in Africa in Asia in Europe in south and north America they are highly trained they go in and they get the job done you do not see IRGC generals in Yemen or lebanon or Africa but they are they building ballistic missiles and training new forces.

 

[Kaniska]

Right intentions but not based on ground realities. Israel is a sordid extension of the West--actually a product of expulsion from the West (WW II)--into a land which some of them had the rightful right to go back to. BUT Israelis are Europeans with superior technology, educated, rational, and were (and are) backed by the might of the West, which is now because of more of the work of the Lobbies then anything else.

Numbers don't matter at all in this debate! One man with a machine gun is far more powerful against 100 men with swords charging at him. Israel has NEVER been militarily at disadvantage against the Bedouin armies!! To confirm that you should read a Merseihmer and S. Walt paper from 2006....

In contrast, both Pakistan and India are 3rd world countries. Overpopulated, resource starved because of the populations, under-educated, and militarily weak. Pakistan can't do the things Israel did and neither can India. Two apples compared with one orange.

BUT.. on the whole I agree with the OP's sentiments: The loss of Indian Occupied Kashmir if India gets away with the demographic changes is a strategic blow to Pakistan. I think gloves should come off in Pakistan, FATF or not, if (and maybe 'when') the situation comes to that...

So can we get a peace between India and Pakistan if there is no demographic change in Kashmir??
For a moment, think about a perspective from normal Indian citizen and tell me some good reason, why any one will go to a war torn place rather than going to Bangalore, Mumbai or Chennai for work...

 

[Meengla]

So can we get a peace between India and Pakistan if there is no demographic change in Kashmir??
For a moment, think about a perspective from normal Indian citizen and tell me some good reason, why any one will go to a war torn place rather than going to Bangalore, Mumbai or Chennai for work...

Bolded Part: Yes, we can. India and Pakistan had made good progress: Under Vajpayee-Musharraf and then under Musharraf-Manmohan Singh. Kashmir is far more easy to solve then many many other geopolitical issues of the world.

As for your argument about 'worn torn' place: Maybe your personal inclination is for peace but I think there is a chunk of your population which wants to undo what was done centuries ago by Muslim invaders of the Subcontinent. That historic baggage is a heavy baggage, especially under Modi. And so, there is going to be a sustained desire toward changing the demographics of Indian Occupied Kashmir with an eye out toward Azad Kashmir; your strategic (and over-ambitious) planners know that you have to reach to Central Asia without Pakistan in between and the importance of cutting off the land route between Pakistan and China.

Also, I am almost certain, your nationalist elements are copying the Israeli tactics, utilizing the Israeli Lobbies in America, and perhaps even being directly counseled by the Israelis about how to gobble up some prized real estate... But you guys don't know how risky that is, if not impossible, to duplicate Israel's land-theft in Kashmir: Neither Pakistan is Palestine nor India has America's back like Israel has.

 

[Aspen]

Pakistan don't need Aircraft carriers it will be burden on Pakistani economy unless our economy is like UK and France and as for artificial island will also expensive project, SSBN can do this job more effectively and cheaply

Aircraft carriers are a a force multiplier that can project power far beyond your borders. Artificial islands will be expensive but they are invaluable assets that will be a nightmare for the enemy. In addition to submarines lurking in the Indian Ocean, there are other ideas that could be useful as well. Pakistan should invest in sea skimming missiles because they are almost impossible to detect until you can actually see them when it is too late. This way you can launch them at Indian ships from farther away because they would float giving them a longer range and sea skimming missiles are very difficult to detect against the surface of the water. If India did something really stupid like invading Pakistani Kashmir, we could take the gloves off and start mining the Indian coast. As India gets more provocative, Pakistan could counter in more aggressive ways. Doing direct strikes on Indian military targets is one option. Iran's strike on Saudi Aramco was a great example of how to do it. Iran used fast and very low flying cruise missiles that hugged the ground. The lower to the terrain and ground your missiles fly, the harder it is for enemy defenses to detect until it is too late. This is how all of Iran's missiles managed to fool US Patriot defenses, because Patriot is looking for missiles in the sky, it can't detect missiles flying low near the ground. Pakistan could fool India's S400 with very low flying cruise missiles through rugged mountains in the same manner. Iran also managed to add plausible deniability by angling the impact of the missiles such that people wondered if it came from Iraq or Yemen. Pakistan could also start building underground missile bunkers across the country to make it impossible for India to know where any missiles would be launched from. Drones will also be useful in a variety of ways. If Pakistan follows the Turkish method, we could make so many drones that we could overwhelm Indian defenses with dozens of drones simultaneously and it wouldn't matter if we lose a few of them as long as the target is hit. Pakistan could also fill drones with humanitarian relief packages and hide small listening devices in these packages connected to a Pakistani intelligence station and airdrop these humanitarian relief packages into Indian Kashmir. If India shoots these drones down, then Pakistan can accuse them of obstructing humanitarian aid. If India doesn't shoot them down, then we succeed at violating Indian airspace and can use these special listening devices hidden in humanitarian relief packages all around IOK to intercept communication of Indian army and locals. ISI can gather this intelligence to penetrate and if necessary preempt any Indian operations against Pakistan. If we combine this intelligence with a breach into secure Indian army servers, we could severely cripple any Indian ability to attack or even respond to operations by Pakistan. ISI and SSG should also form an elite new clandestine operations division like Iran's shadowy Quds Force to specialize in operations such as this. Pakistan's aerospace divisions could also be beefed up. PAF could explore the possibility of building high altitude hypersonic aerial reconnaissance spy drones like China's WZ-8 with an infusion of Iranian and Turkish UAV technology on a classified secret joint venture project between Pakistan and these countries. These hypersonic spy drones would fly at altitudes too high and at speeds Mach 6-7 too fast for India to shoot down. Pakistan could keep an eye over all of India with these high altitude reconnaissance spy drones and take high resolution images of sensitive Indian military installations from a safe altitude. In fact I would not be surprised if China is already doing high altitude reconnaissance over India because China's WZ-8 can already do it and India has no way to shoot it down since WZ-8 flies at hypersonic speeds Mach 6-7. So Pakistan may already have this capability from China indirectly. The R&D gained from such projects could be invested into other endeavors of SUPARCO such as improving MIRV's and ICBM's and building a hypersonic glide vehicle. In the short term immediate future, Pakistan could look at other ways to increase the pressure on India by signing defense agreements with Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, and Nepal and supplying them basic export variants of the JF-17. New electronic warfare techniques should also be added to PAF. When Israel had to cross the border into Iraq to strike their nuclear reactor, they used electronic warfare to flood Iraqi radar by jamming it with fake signals on their radar to confuse, distract, and divert attention away from their own planes. Iraqi controllers saw so many fake planes on their radar they had no idea which were the real enemy planes and thus couldn't identify the Israeli planes in Iraqi airspace. Israel did something similar with Syria, but instead of flooding the radar, they disabled Syrian radar for a few seconds to make it look like a glitch while Israeli planes crossed the border into Syrian airspace. These techniques of electronic warfare could be used by Pakistan to infiltrate and violate Indian airspace today if necessary.

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

The simple Answer is that

1. Pakistan can't do anything on Kashmir. It is a lost case.

2. Pakistan has already tried all available options : WAR, terrorism and talks.

Now, possible actions by pak government for next coming years:

1. Tweets on a daily basis
2. Write emails to UN chief on regular basis
3. Cry in UN during then annual conference.
4. Request for talk with India.
5. Common Statements with few others country I.e China, turkey..
6. Abuse OIC for doing nothing
7. Celebrities Kashmir day in Pakistan (annually)

Conclusion : every year again start from point 1.

 

[Ultima Thule]

Aircraft carriers are a a force multiplier that can project power far beyond your borders. Artificial islands will be expensive but they are invaluable assets that will be a nightmare for the enemy. In addition to submarines lurking in the Indian Ocean, there are other ideas that could be useful as well. Pakistan should invest in sea skimming missiles because they are almost impossible to detect until you can actually see them when it is too late.

And Aircraft carrier need a fleet to defend like 6-12 destroyer equipped with long range SAMs and from underwater, and artificial island is easy target for Indian BMs
we have sufficient sea skimming missiles to cope with the enemy like RA'AD 2/Babur 3/Harba/Zarb/C-802/C-803 (cruise at subsonic,terminal at supersonic) CM-400AKG which terminal hypersonic/ Exocet/Harpoon

The simple Answer is that

1. Pakistan can't do anything on Kashmir. It is a lost case.

2. Pakistan has already tried all available options : WAR, terrorism and talks.

Now, possible actions by pak government for next coming years:

1. Tweets on a daily basis
2. Write emails to UN chief on regular basis
3. Cry in UN during then annual conference.
4. Request for talk with India.
5. Common Statements with few others country I.e China, turkey..
6. Abuse OIC for doing nothing
7. Celebrities Kashmir day in Pakistan (annually)

Conclusion : every year again start from point 1.

Wait for war which will come in near future

 

[Aspen]

agreed 10000% PK in no Syria, in air you are 1 on 1 you need to be sneaky as we like to say do play the game by your adversary rules, if you want to win play it by your own rule, Iran kept off its enemy from its main land for 40 years, but its enemies are getting hit in their own soil, when revolution started we had nothing we saw an opportunity in lebanon and Iran took it they helped Hezbollah dass began a new era of allies and the rest is history i think PK should starts to move some agents around in kashmir find some fighters that are in line with you then move little weapons here little bet over there then, weapones that can not be traced back to you then boom your alias will have ballistic missile before india even find out what happened, i'm afraid you lost a good 30 years but never is too late.

you need a unit like Quds forces of IRGC they are every where in middle east in Africa in Asia in Europe in south and north America they are highly trained they go in and they get the job done you do not see IRGC generals in Yemen or lebanon or Africa but they are they building ballistic missiles and training new forces.

To really take on India, what Pakistan needs is a parallel army system like Iran's Artesh and Sepah. One side for conventional warfare and a new separate division exclusively for asymmetric warfare, like a Pakistani version of IRGC with its own separate asymmetric airforce, army, navy, and a special division for clandestine operations similar to Quds Force with a hybrid ISI+SSG unit. Pakistan's Quds Force equivalent could be called ISG. Then ISG can infiltrate deep inside India and start flipping people to work for Pakistan by coordinating militias and creating a network of proxies across India.

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

Wait war which will come in near future

I don't have problem to wait... Pls take your time.

I m very very practice man. Believed me, Pakistan will never get a single inch of Kashmir and vise versa. India will not get a single inch pak Kashmir.

It is just a political tool now. Pakistan leaders will play cards in Pakistan to gain benefits and Same goes to Indian politicians

 

[Ultima Thule]

I don't have problem to wait... Pls take your time.

I m very very practice man. Believed me, Pakistan will never get a single inch of Kashmir and vise versa. India will not get a single inch pak Kashmir.

It is just a political tool now. Pakistan leaders will play cards in Pakistan to gain benefits and Same goes to Indian politicians

No, you're the problem creator for the peace of subcontinent, if you are not willing to capture our part of Kashmir then why your govt/Military barking to invade our part of Kashmir and capture it, and we want peaceful solution of Kashmir according to UN resolutions

You're the biggest threat/mess for the peace of subcontinent
JAY TERRORIST HIND

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

No, you're the problem creator for the peace of subcontinent, if you are not willing to capture our part of Kashmir then why your govt/Military barking to invade our part of Kashmir and capture it, and we want peaceful solution of Kashmir according to UN resolutions

You're the biggest threat/mess for the peace of subcontinent
JAY TERRORIST HIND

Terrorism in South aisa then people need to learn the history from 1979....1st in Afghanistan and 2nd in indian from 1989.

Only two countries are responsible : Pakistan and USA