IDEAS 2018/New Fighter Induction

[BHarwana]

There seems to be just wish list of every Air chief to induct something cool. But no $s are there. They no doubt have best intentions, but progress in thunder programme hampers more funds availablability. For any new induction we need a 2-3 billion dollars payment schedule which this government atleast now cannot commit.

So we better enjoy with the Toys in Hand.

Hmm so you think all those jf-17 which Pakistan has inducted are for free? Like 25 are coming in every year and there are no dollars being spent on them? Do you math and tell me how much jf-17 program is costing per year. I think it will show you we are spending good so dollars is not the issue but we are buying what we need. Plus jf-17 blk III R&D is also not free. All these things take money.

Now on toys in hand. What is that other jets offer better than JF-17 BLK III can you list plz?

 

[Goku-kun]

Hmm so you think all those jf-17 which Pakistan has inducted are for free? Like 25 are coming in every year and there are no dollars being spent on them? Do you math and tell me how much jf-17 program is costing per year. I think it will show you we are spending good so dollars is not the issue but we are buying what we need. Plus jf-17 blk III R&D is also not free. All these things take money.

Now on toys in hand. What is that other jets offer better than JF-17 BLK III can you list plz?

What happened to JF-17B version it's being test flighted twice and its been long since its first test flight so isn't it being getting inducted? we can produce around 50-60 units of it and it's our requirement too and was that news geniune that last purchase/delivery of jf-17s consist of 2 B-versions?

 

[BHarwana]

What happened to JF-17B version it's being test flighted twice and it's bin long since it's first flight test so isn't it being getting inducted? we can produce around 50-60 units of it and it's our requirement too and was that news geniune that last purchase/delivery of jf-17s consist of 2 B-versions?

Jf-17B has advanced from flight testing and I think it is in weapons integration phase and production line phase.

 

[Goku-kun]

Jf-17B has advanced from flight testing and I think it is in weapons integration phase and production line phase.

they are saying that i don't have sufficient previlages to contribute in this thread? any reason?
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/why-...in-kashmir-robert-frisk.589937/#post-10991729

 

[HRK]

they are saying that i don't have sufficient previlages to contribute in this thread? any reason?
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/why-...in-kashmir-robert-frisk.589937/#post-10991729

I think only senior members are allowed to post in Kashmir section

 

[JohnWick]

No #FAKENEWS

 

[RangeMaster]

this is called Google effect ....

We Stand Against Digital Amnesia
Step up and help these people. Your little contribution can change their lives.
Say no to 'money sucking' filthy corporations.

 

[salman-1]

Hmm so you think all those jf-17 which Pakistan has inducted are for free? Like 25 are coming in every year and there are no dollars being spent on them? Do you math and tell me how much jf-17 program is costing per year. I think it will show you we are spending good so dollars is not the issue but we are buying what we need. Plus jf-17 blk III R&D is also not free. All these things take money.

Now on toys in hand. What is that other jets offer better than JF-17 BLK III can you list plz?

Where have I said Jf17 programme is being run for free or not enough dollars being spent on it.
What I've said that any new procurement is curtailed as Jf17 production or new research for it Hampers the new procurement.

 

[BHarwana]

Where have I said Jf17 programme is being run for free or not enough dollars being spent on it.
What I've said that any new procurement is curtailed as Jf17 production or new research for it Hampers the new procurement.

My friend your whole comment was about Pakistan not having money. Now if we don't buy 2 jf-17 we can buy one J-10 with that money. Defence procurement is not done on wishes but on strategy and jf-17 currently fits our strategy. We are buying fighters jets worth some where near $1 billion yearly and doing it for so many years so think before you type. We have inducted some where near 170 jets ever since the whole project started. If you make one jet worth $30 million then we have already crossed $5 billion on jf-17 that is near the amount of Indian Rafale deal.

 

[amardeep mishra]

I am talking about developing semiconductor fabrication infrastructure and starting independent R&D in that area. No excuse can be made about equipment becoming obsolete then. Further research should be performed.

Hi @CriticalThought
Quite an interesting discussion I must confess. You see, the main problem with FABs is that they are very capital intensive! Just to give you a perspective, a FAB producing chips for industrial automation, automobiles etc cost in the vicinity of ~$2.5bn to establish, whereas it takes ~$5bn to set up a fab dealing with top of the line 10-14nm process. Also the data generated by Taiwanese FABs clearly show that the yearly "profit" is hardly in the range of ~$100mn only. So, unless and until Pakistan doesnt have a huge demand of these micro chips, it makes no financial sense to set up a high end fab. By demand I strictly mean that the local vendors should find Pakistani manufactured chips to be more affordable than the one sourced from singapore, Taiwan FABs. The best for Pakistan would be something like setting up 180nm process that can produce ICs for applications ranging from basic industrial automation, routers and other basic stuff like how India did in early 2000s. Then progressively new processes can be incorporated with political will and lots of dollars.
Other area that can be exploited is the GaAs or GaN FABs that find direct application in AESA radars. But then again the main challenge here is the "demand". Pakistani armed forces should have an adequate demand of AESA radars--all kinds right from LLTRs, MPRs, HPRs, AEWCs to fighter borne radars. Although not as expensive as microprocessor manufacturing, these FABs still cost something like $300-500mn to erect(as India is doing at IISc Bangalore). But FABs are just the one piece of puzzle in AESA game. Modern AESA radars are bottlenecked by their processing capabilities and algorithms than by hardware as modern experience shows. Although not strictly AESA, I have indeed worked on PESA for a short stint as a internee. Once you have mastered the hardware, the real challenge of making an AESA, a proper AESA starts. The research trend is heading towards developing novel algorithms for stuff like adaptive beam forming leverging the capabilities of a digital beam former in modern AESA radars. Concluding my post, I wish to highlight that hardware is just one piece of the puzzle, the main challenge these days lie on the algorithm side!

 

[CriticalThought]

Hi @CriticalThought
Quite an interesting discussion I must confess. You see, the main problem with FABs is that they are very capital intensive! Just to give you a perspective, a FAB producing chips for industrial automation, automobiles etc cost in the vicinity of ~$2.5bn to establish, whereas it takes ~$5bn to set up a fab dealing with top of the line 10-14nm process. Also the data generated by Taiwanese FABs clearly show that the yearly "profit" is hardly in the range of ~$100mn only. So, unless and until Pakistan doesnt have a huge demand of these micro chips, it makes no financial sense to set up a high end fab. By demand I strictly mean that the local vendors should find Pakistani manufactured chips to be more affordable than the one sourced from singapore, Taiwan FABs. The best for Pakistan would be something like setting up 180nm process that can produce ICs for applications ranging from basic industrial automation, routers and other basic stuff like how India did in early 2000s. Then progressively new processes can be incorporated with political will and lots of dollars.
Other area that can be exploited is the GaAs or GaN FABs that find direct application in AESA radars. But then again the main challenge here is the "demand". Pakistani armed forces should have an adequate demand of AESA radars--all kinds right from LLTRs, MPRs, HPRs, AEWCs to fighter borne radars. Although not as expensive as microprocessor manufacturing, these FABs still cost something like $300-500mn to erect(as India is doing at IISc Bangalore). But FABs are just the one piece of puzzle in AESA game. Modern AESA radars are bottlenecked by their processing capabilities and algorithms than by hardware as modern experience shows. Although not strictly AESA, I have indeed worked on PESA for a short stint as a internee. Once you have mastered the hardware, the real challenge of making an AESA, a proper AESA starts. The research trend is heading towards developing novel algorithms for stuff like adaptive beam forming leverging the capabilities of a digital beam former in modern AESA radars. Concluding my post, I wish to highlight that hardware is just one piece of the puzzle, the main challenge these days lie on the algorithm side!

The real issue is security. Pakistani manufacturers need to own security from the bottom up. A secure design provided to external party can be maliciously enhanced. Even if the design is perfectly replicated, knowledge of atomic behavior within individual transistors can be used to skew the output.

The problem is, our defence personnel do not appreciate all the possibilities through which they can be attacked. So when faced with a sophisticated attack, they become absolutely dumbfounded and throw in the towel. From here, the mystique of American superiority takes root and complete mental subjugation follows. By investing in actual fabtech, hopefully they will start to appreciate the nuances of EW.

 

[amardeep mishra]

The real issue is security. Pakistani manufacturers need to own security from the bottom up. A secure design provided to external party can be maliciously enhanced. Even if the design is perfectly replicated, knowledge of atomic behavior within individual transistors can be used to skew the output.

The problem is, our defence personnel do not appreciate all the possibilities through which they can be attacked. So when faced with a sophisticated attack, they become absolutely dumbfounded and throw in the towel. From here, the mystique of American superiority takes root and complete mental subjugation follows. By investing in actual fabtech, hopefully they will start to appreciate the nuances of EW.

I feel you're unnecessarily paranoid since Pakistan can always source those from China and I'm sure China will have no interest in spying on Pakistani radar infrastructure, or maybe I'm too naive. I fully share your concern of Pakistan having an R&D base but the cost to establish even a mid tier FAB is ginormous for a country like Pakistan. And if there is no sufficient demand then it'll sink even more money to operate.
In my humble opinion the question you should rather be concerned with is how can Pakistani design capabilities be enhanced? First there should be enough R&D activity to even warrant a FAB. Design is the key! Pakistani universities should come up with their own RISC processors and have then manufactured in China etc. Here at IITM, they designed their own RISC V utilising a 20nm process. They got it manufactured at an American FAB. Similarly they designed a low level processor for industrial automation and got it manufactured here in India using our 180nm process. So my point is, instead of jumping a ladder up, you should first focus on design. A lot of these components can be sourced from China

 

[CriticalThought]

I feel you're unnecessarily paranoid since Pakistan can always source those from China and I'm sure China will have no interest in spying on Pakistani radar infrastructure, or maybe I'm too naive. I fully share your concern of Pakistan having an R&D base but the cost to establish even a mid tier FAB is ginormous for a country like Pakistan. And if there is no sufficient demand then it'll sink even more money to operate.
In my humble opinion the question you should rather be concerned with is how can Pakistani design capabilities be enhanced? First there should be enough R&D activity to even warrant a FAB. Design is the key! Pakistani universities should come up with their own RISC processors and have then manufactured in China etc. Here at IITM, they designed their own RISC V utilising a 20nm process. They got it manufactured at an American FAB. Similarly they designed a low level processor for industrial automation and got it manufactured here in India using our 180nm process. So my point is, instead of jumping a ladder up, you should

You misunderstand me by surmising I am advocating a blind import of a fabrication plant without supporting industrial utilization. But we need to plan with the ultimate aim of indigenous fabtech in mind.

I am not paranoid. Security exploits based on low level characteristics have been published.

 

[amardeep mishra]

You misunderstand me by surmising I am advocating a blind import of a fabrication plant without supporting industrial utilization. But we need to plan with the ultimate aim of indigenous fabtech in mind.

I am not paranoid. Security exploits based on low level characteristics have been published.

I'm not into security as such so can't really comment. FABs are indeed good provided you've your own designs that you can mass produce. Besides being a new comer the new FAB would have to compete with the old guys in Singapore and TAIWAN. They have optimized their operations through decades of running. The main point being who will utilise Pakistani FABs when they can get the job done effectively in Singapore and China. In fact that is one of the reasons why our own(India's) 10-14nm FAB could never really take off. Kindly note, unlike Pakistan India does have designed various RISC micro processors and have been operating a 180nm FAB for sometime now, yet we couldn't setup a 10-14nm plant.
So in order to make Pakistani FAB even meaningful(let alone profitable), there should be enough R&D activities pertaining to design of ICs first. Once Pakistan has breached that threshold then they can go for a mid tier FAB something on the lines of 180nm process. But even that is realistically decades away. Don't take me wrong, itz just the financial reality.

 

[CriticalThought]

I'm not into security as such so can't really comment. FABs are indeed good provided you've your own designs that you can mass produce. Besides being a new comer the new FAB would have to compete with the old guys in Singapore and TAIWAN. They have optimized their operations through decades of running. The main point being who will utilise Pakistani FABs when they can get the job done effectively in Singapore and China. In fact that is one of the reasons why our own(India's) 10-14nm FAB could never really take off. Kindly note, unlike Pakistan India does have designed various RISC micro processors and have been operating a 180nm FAB for sometime now, yet we couldn't setup a 10-14nm plant.
So in order to make Pakistani FAB even meaningful(let alone profitable), there should be enough R&D activities pertaining to design of ICs first. Once Pakistan has breached that threshold then they can go for a mid tier FAB something on the lines of 180nm process. But even that is realistically decades away. Don't take me wrong, itz just the financial reality.

In a recent press conference, Information Minister Fawad Chauhdry hinted at mobile phones produced in Pakistan. Thankfully, the security apparatus is awakening to the threat posed by millions of foreign devices.