Featured IAF's Fanciful Ambitions Now Risk Exceeding India's Declining Defence Budget

[manga]

The wire ?
That very desperate.

 

[Kabira]

In real terms Pak defence budget been decreasing, learn facts before shooting off mouth.

You don't know shit. Pakistan spend higher % of GDP on defence. Pakistan spend higher share of tax revenues on defence then India.

Now India will have to reallocate their budget because CHina is no Pakistan. While china is providing comfy rooms in Ladakh which can withstand -40 degrees, while India is sending their soldiers in donkey carts. India will need to spend huge amount just to match China infrastructure in Ladakh.

 

[paritosh]

This kid really has no idea who he is dealing with

I am dealing with a loud mouth babu from the Indian postal service am I not?
Your trying to pull rank on a Pakistani Internet forum shows how weak the content of your posts is. You use irrelevant factors like age, articulation capacity in the English language and the office you hold to troll with reckless abandon in your arguments.
Nobody gives a rat’s *** to what you do in your dayjob, look to your family and your peons for positive validation.

Thanks god my tax rupees are no longer paying your salary.

 

[paritosh]

Can we move on? I don't think anyone was 'pulling rank'; I think we agree that there is an awful lot that has to be done before there is any substantial improvement in the economy.

This is not a long thread, go through the pages. Your minion is definitely pulling rank in almost all his posts. Give him a pat on the back, he needs hugs and kisses before he implodes.

 

[letsrock]

This had to happen, to shake off the death-grip of the unions on defence production establishments. The infrastructure that played a significant role and armed the allies in the Second World War is now unable to meet the volumes needed for the Army, Navy and Air Force.

Part of this is due to a downward spiral of expectation and capacity building setting each other off; as the men in uniform lose faith in the availability of materiel from these plants, the plants see their orderbooks shrinking and plan downwards accordingly; that leads to a further downturn in production and a further loss of faith, and so on.

There are signs of major change. Major artillery and armoured vehicle offerings have been made, there is a sense among the very competent Indian private sector that changes are coming, and that these will be permanent, and there is serious capacity being built up. But again, it will take time for these initiatives to replace the really current technologies that are needed here and now, and our own designs coming to mass production is going to happen only over some years. When it does happen, it will be a serious headache for our 'friends', but that's a different paracetamol requirement.


Why is it that a class of Pakistani cannot refrain from the coarsest racism when trying to show that their country, their services and their competitive capability is on par with anyone else?


You have taken into account that the post has been made by someone for whom acne is possibly a greater world issue than aggression?




LOL. This question was inevitable, T90 Bhai. Just to remind you, none of these gentry have even the slightest interest in defence; they are here to be insolent and aggressive towards the designated object of hatred, and to fill the columns with acid comments on anything and any post. This member is a classic of the kind. He has probably never come across you before, and is wondering how someone who depends on the grapevine much as he does knows so much more than he does. Have you found a stronger vine, he wonders to himself, and finally cannot bottle up the curiousity.

This is what comes of posting so rarely.


WHAT?

Am I dreaming or something? You are aware of how much the Centre owes the States in GST share that should have been distributed but has not been done?

Blaming unions for production woes is typical worker bashing. Everywhere in the world arms and munitions are produced by govt especially when poor. Inviting "competent" private sector will really do nothing - private sector in india is not really that competent and more fraudelent than govt sector.

The situation being different for other nationalities?

A classic "problems?what problems? look over there we are no worse"

 

[Yasser76]

You don't know shit. Pakistan spend higher % of GDP on defence. Pakistan spend higher share of tax revenues on defence then India.

Now India will have to reallocate their budget because CHina is no Pakistan. While china is providing comfy rooms in Ladakh which can withstand -40 degrees, while India is sending their soldiers in donkey carts. India will need to spend huge amount just to match China infrastructure in Ladakh.

Easy on the language, a simple internet search will prove you wrong and me right in terms of real terms decrease in defence spending. Getting rude does not make your argument more valid.

 

[ShehzadSabzwari1978]

Having money doesnt make any Army stronger. Please dont get demotivated by such negative thoughts. Feeling lucky to serve our country and you would be happy to know that our government is planning to restore some predictability and consistency in funding for major defense programs .We must be proud of it.To me the highest obligation and previleage of citizenship is that of bearing arms for one's country.

 

[Joe Shearer]

This is not a long thread, go through the pages. Your minion is definitely pulling rank in almost all his posts. Give him a pat on the back, he needs hugs and kisses before he implodes.

LOL.

Pot and kettle? If you hadn't jumped in without thinking, you might have realised what was going on. As it is, your posts are now more about your offended amour propre than anything to do with the topic.

 

[paritosh]

LOL.

Pot and kettle? If you hadn't jumped in without thinking, you might have realised what was going on. As it is, your posts are now more about your offended amour propre than anything to do with the topic.

I was trying to move away from the topic till your buddy wrote another condescending post referring to me as a kid. The level of obnoxiousness is of epic proportions with this one, which is the reason why I 'jumped' into this thread. My point has been his throwing his imaginary weight around on a freaking internet website all along.
Here's the sequence of events, since you are being lazy...

Post 1 - Mr. GoI in his spat with another member, literally pulls rank when they are discussing economic policies and their impact

Buddy just chill. If you knew my designation you would not be saying that , stop whats app learning , start reading the news .

Post 2 - I call out the stupidity of doing so to Mr. GoI

Why pontificate? What you wrote sounded like a Delhi boy whining when stopped for not wearing his seat belt.
No one's anyone on a forum, macroeconomic assessment doesn't require a lot of insider information in a democracy.

Which is when Mr. GoI deems me as a bhakt in the thread, we continue the sabre rattling and you jump in for some reason.

Now, Mr. GoI may be your buddy, but to me he is the personification of the obnoxious, arrogant Indian these Pakistanis portray everyone this side of the Indus to be. Tell me Joe Shearer are you interested in knowing how much power I wield in the world? How many dollars I make a year? How many investment funds I contribute to? I am sure no one's interested, and if I bring these stupid factors into how I conduct myself anywhere, you know the kind of reaction I'd get.

This stunt is a good example of how hierarchy has ruined our PSUs and the mindset of our nation.

 

[paritosh]

Blaming unions for production woes is typical worker bashing. Everywhere in the world arms and munitions are produced by govt especially when poor. Inviting "competent" private sector will really do nothing - private sector in india is not really that competent and more fraudelent than govt sector.

If the objective of the organisation is to add value (produce cutting-edge weapons that provide value to the armed forces and give them a combat edge against other technologically advanced armies) then the focus has to be effectiveness, efficiency and research as organisational principles. These concepts result in darwinian concepts coming into play as you need more for less. Hence not all jobs can be made secure. Unionisation hence destroys the core principles of a weapons manufacturing organisation's ability to add value.

You can have unionised PSUs operate in commoditised sectors where the level of value add (and hence skills required) is very low, to ensure universal employment, but you can't do that in an organisation that's supposed to add a tremendous amount of value in goods and services that have to be produced in a very challenging environment (demands far exceed the value chain's capabilities).

Agree with your point on the private sector in India being fraudulent. I think the level of corruption should go down over a period of time with the right checks and balances, but we still get better products and services out of the private sector when compared to the public sector.

 

[letsrock]

If the objective of the organisation is to add value (produce cutting-edge weapons that provide value to the armed forces and give them a combat edge against other technologically advanced armies) then the focus has to be effectiveness, efficiency and research as organisational principles. These concepts result in darwinian concepts coming into play as you need more for less. Hence not all jobs can be made secure. Unionisation hence destroys the core principles of a weapons manufacturing organisation's ability to add value.

You can have unionised PSUs operate in commoditised sectors where the level of value add (and hence skills required) is very low, to ensure universal employment, but you can't do that in an organisation that's supposed to add a tremendous amount of value in goods and services that have to be produced in a very challenging environment (demands far exceed the value chain's capabilities).

Agree with your point on the private sector in India being fraudulent. I think the level of corruption should go down over a period of time with the right checks and balances, but we still get better products and services out of the private sector when compared to the public sector.

So your argument is that indian govt run organizations can never improve but indian corporate sector can ? do you realize that indian armed forces are run by indian govt ? ofcourse they still have the racist british caste based regiments and racist policies(racism and india just fit like a T) but it is still run by govt of india.

Moreover you seem to confuse de-unionization with private sector. There are unions in private sector too. Basically you want indian arms to be produced by corporate banias with hordes of non-union workers without any assurance of permanent employment. Good luck with that - i know indian govt run organizations are no good but in all likelihood these are worse.

 

[paritosh]

So your argument is that indian govt run organizations can never improve but indian corporate sector can ? do you realize that indian armed forces are run by indian govt ? ofcourse they still have the racist british caste based regiments and racist policies(racism and india just fit like a T) but it is still run by govt of india.

Yes that is my exact argument.
Security of the state has to be overseen by the state in a democracy and hence the army has to be managed by the state. The armed forces don't operate as a business, they are not expected to make monetary returns for capital invested, I don't know what the confusion is, this is common sense.

Moreover you seem to confuse de-unionization with private sector. There are unions in private sector too.

The degree of bargaining power differs significantly between the unions in public and private sectors. The concept of worker unions in a free market environment doesn't make sense if the regulator for the sector (govt. agencies) has the right checks and balances (anti-trust laws, worker welfare acts, etc.).

Basically you want indian arms to be produced by corporate banias with hordes of non-union workers without any assurance of permanent employment. Good luck with that - i know indian govt run organizations are no good but in all likelihood these are worse.

Are these two the only options available? There are higher benchmarks that we can aspire for.
Why should employment be permanent? An organisation that doesn't value merit based hiring and career progression will produce offerings that will not have any merit. And why should loss making organisations be a permanent drain on the tax payer? You and I pay for sarkari PSU babus and their families to get regular holidays in Singapore, while they literally sleep on the job, produce grossly inferior products and don't have any accountability. Bad organisations should fail just as students who don't study fail exams. In a free market environment, you can choose not to invest in an organisation. In a PSU, you have to.
What metric are you using to make that comparison betweeen public and private sectors?

 

[khansaheeb]

And tell us how this is going to happen with the Indian economy shrinking 25%? I guess India gov will just further increase the budget deficit.

Savings on toilets which means more pooping in the fields and higher yield of crops leading to more guy mutra and a satisfied Indian army.

 

[letsrock]

Yes that is my exact argument.
Security of the state has to be overseen by the state in a democracy and hence the army has to be managed by the state. The armed forces don't operate as a business, they are not expected to make monetary returns for capital invested, I don't know what the confusion is, this is common sense.


The degree of bargaining power differs significantly between the unions in public and private sectors. The concept of worker unions in a free market environment doesn't make sense if the regulator for the sector (govt. agencies) has the right checks and balances (anti-trust laws, worker welfare acts, etc.).


Are these two the only options available? There are higher benchmarks that we can aspire for.
Why should employment be permanent? An organisation that doesn't value merit based hiring and career progression will produce offerings that will not have any merit. And why should loss making organisations be a permanent drain on the tax payer? You and I pay for sarkari PSU babus and their families to get regular holidays in Singapore, while they literally sleep on the job, produce grossly inferior products and don't have any accountability. Bad organisations should fail just as students who don't study fail exams. In a free market environment, you can choose not to invest in an organisation. In a PSU, you have to.
What metric are you using to make that comparison betweeen public and private sectors?

Arms manufacturing is not exactly a monetary business for returns on capital. Maybe if they export - thats a long way off. Also the problem with indian ordinance factories is not so much due to workers but quality check failure etc which is an officer created problems. The real problem is lack of management and admin skills among a lot of indians - whether they are officers in public sector or private sector.

IN india as of now they are only two options - govt brahmins (bureacrats) or coroporate banias - both suck.

 

[paritosh]

Arms manufacturing is not exactly a monetary business for returns on capital. Maybe if they export - thats a long way off.

It 100% is. Inputs and outputs have monetary value, a balance sheet attributes auditable value to assets, which are paid for (in INR or USD) by the customers (IA,IAF, Sri Lanka, etc.)

Also the problem with indian ordinance factories is not so much due to workers but quality check failure etc which is an officer created problems. The real problem is lack of management and admin skills among a lot of indians - whether they are officers in public sector or private sector.

I don't care if it's one cadre that's more at fault than the other, the whole system of not working to make a profit with assured year-on-year tax investments and jobs that are permanent is designed to fail at all levels, whether it's lazy and inept officers or shop-floor workers.
As far as ubiquitous nature of admin skills being absent is concerned, that's a very bad reading of the two sectors. Here's a simple test - Do a comprehensive internet search of the most profitable Indian companies, and then correlate their profit margins with their market position (based on market cap) globally.
What you'd find is a tight correlation between profit margins and global market performance, and that all of these companies would be Indian private firms that hire from IITs and IIMs.

IN india as of now they are only two options - govt brahmins (bureacrats) or coroporate banias - both suck.

Have you ever stepped foot inside a PSU? If you do, the first dominant thing that you'd notice is calendars and posters of OBC and SC/ST group affiliations plastered across cubicles.
I think you are too prejudiced to be objective. What do you mean by corporate baniyas? Is there an entry barrier that stops you from working for Infosys, Tata or Reliance?