IAF to HAL: Build Swiss trainer aircraft, don't develop your own

[vivINDIAN]

Indian Air Force (IAF) chief, Air Chief Marshal N A K Browne, has sugarcoated his bid to import 106 basic trainer aircraft from Pilatus Aircraft Co, by proposing that Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) build the trainers in Bangalore to blueprints supplied by the Swiss company.

HAL, which is designing its own basic trainer for the IAF - the Hindustan Turbo Trainer-40 (HTT-40) - has flatly rejected the proposal. The company has allocated Rs 130 crore of its own money to continue developing the HTT-40, which is projected to fly by 2015.

Browne's new ploy follows Defence Minister A K Antony's cold-shouldering of a letter from the IAF chief, demanding an over-the-counter purchase of 106 PC-7 Mark II trainers from Pilatus. Such a purchase would be a windfall for the Swiss company worth at least Swiss Francs 750 million (Rs 5,000 crore).

Last year, the IAF purchased 75 PC-7 Mark II trainers for 557 million Swiss Francs (Rs 3,725 crore). Pilatus has delivered at least 15 of those trainers.

When the purchase of 75 trainers from the global market was approved in 2009, it was decided that HAL would simultaneously design and build 106 trainers. But, in July, as reported first by Business Standard (July 29, 'Indian Air Force at war with Hindustan Aeronautics; wants to import, not build, a trainer') the IAF chief wrote to Antony, savaging HAL's proposal and recommending this order be handed to Pilatus.

In his unprecedented attack on HAL, which builds a range of aircraft for the IAF, Browne alleged the HTT-40 trainer would cost Rs 43.59 crore per aircraft, which inflation would raise to Rs 64.77 crore in 2020. Arguing for Pilatus, Browne's letter falsely claimed the PC-7 Mark II costs just Rs 30 crore per aircraft when, in fact, India was already paying Pilatus about Rs 40 crore (Swiss Francs 6.09 million) for each trainer supplied.

The IAF confirms it approached HAL to build 106 PC-7 Mark IIs under license from Pilatus, even while rubbishing HAL's ability to design and build the HTT-40. An IAF statement to Business Standard says, "IAF had invited HAL to manufacture the balance PC-7 Mk II required by IAF under license in India. However, in their own interest HAL declined to participate in license manufacture of the PC-7 Mk II."

Turned away by HAL, Browne bizarrely claimed during the Air Force Day functions on October 8 that the IAF's base repair depots (BRDs) - set up to maintain and overhaul aircraft and engines - could also build aircraft. The IAF chief declared, "The 14 base repair depots (BRDs) have grown in both capability and capacity in a manner that the day is not far when it will be able to develop its own medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA)."

A reality check was quickly provided by the IAF's maintenance chief, Air Marshal

P Kanakaraj, who admitted that assembling aircraft "(would) be a quantum jump in the working of the maintenance command… We are bound to make mistakes initially, so pilot-less aircraft are an ideal platform to start off."

Asked to comment on whether BRDs would now build Pilatus trainers, the IAF responded: "No decision has been taken on manufacturing the trainer aircraft in Base Repair Depot. As and when any decision is taken at a later stage, you would be informed."

Meanwhile, the IAF is squeezing HAL to reflect a higher price for the HTT-40. At a recent meeting in HAL Bangalore, Air Marshal Fernandes flew down from Air Headquarters in New Delhi to demand that a slew of inputs, including the cost of development, be factored into the cost.

Ironically, the IAF glosses over the most compelling argument for an indigenous trainer - the cost of spares, maintenance, overhauls and upgrades during 40 years of operational service. These "life-cycle costs", which add up to at least thrice the procurement cost of an aircraft, would be significantly higher in the case of Pilatus, also creating a dependency on the continuation of the Pilatus manufacturing line.

Business Standard has also highlighted (July 30, 'IAF diluted at least 12 benchmarks for trainer aircraft') the murkiness around the decision to award Pilatus the contract. A range of crucial performance benchmarks were diluted by the IAF after it was decided to buy 75 trainers from the global market, even as HAL developed 106 trainers. Diluting these benchmarks made the PC-7 Mark II eligible for purchase.

The IAF, which pushed through the proposal to import 75 trainers while HAL designed and built 106 HTT-40s now argues that operating two different types of trainers would complicate administration and logistics.

source:Business standard

 

[Skull and Bones]

If HAL is spending own money then there shouldn't be any issues with it, unless it slows down other ongoing projects.

 

[Tshering22]

If HAL is spending own money then there shouldn't be any issues with it, unless it slows down other ongoing projects.

What own money? It is public money that HAL wastes around without getting any results.

I for once support ACM Browne for having the guts to warn a defense PSU.

Even if we are making a foreign trainer, HAL better get upto it or suffer IAF's displeasure.

Enough is enough.

 

[janon]

If HAL is spending own money then there shouldn't be any issues with it, unless it slows down other ongoing projects.

When their only customer will not buy their product, it is stupidity to spend public money on developing it. Will Tata or Mahindra spend thousands of crores to build a car that they know will never be marketed?

HAL might do it, because what you call their own money is actually taxpayers' money. If it was to come out of the pockets of the executives there, then you can bet they will not work on a product that they cannot market.

That's the difference between doing business with one's own money, and doing business with somebody else's money. ie, the difference between private enterprise and govt run enterprises.

 

[Black Eagle 90]

Indian Air Force (IAF) chief, Air Chief Marshal N A K Browne, has sugarcoated his bid to import 106 basic trainer aircraft from Pilatus Aircraft Co, by proposing that Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) build the trainers in Bangalore to blueprints supplied by the Swiss company.

HAL, which is designing its own basic trainer for the IAF - the Hindustan Turbo Trainer-40 (HTT-40) - has flatly rejected the proposal. The company has allocated Rs 130 crore of its own money to continue developing the HTT-40, which is projected to fly by 2015.

Browne's new ploy follows Defence Minister A K Antony's cold-shouldering of a letter from the IAF chief, demanding an over-the-counter purchase of 106 PC-7 Mark II trainers from Pilatus. Such a purchase would be a windfall for the Swiss company worth at least Swiss Francs 750 million (Rs 5,000 crore).

Last year, the IAF purchased 75 PC-7 Mark II trainers for 557 million Swiss Francs (Rs 3,725 crore). Pilatus has delivered at least 15 of those trainers.

When the purchase of 75 trainers from the global market was approved in 2009, it was decided that HAL would simultaneously design and build 106 trainers. But, in July, as reported first by Business Standard (July 29, 'Indian Air Force at war with Hindustan Aeronautics; wants to import, not build, a trainer') the IAF chief wrote to Antony, savaging HAL's proposal and recommending this order be handed to Pilatus.

In his unprecedented attack on HAL, which builds a range of aircraft for the IAF, Browne alleged the HTT-40 trainer would cost Rs 43.59 crore per aircraft, which inflation would raise to Rs 64.77 crore in 2020. Arguing for Pilatus, Browne's letter falsely claimed the PC-7 Mark II costs just Rs 30 crore per aircraft when, in fact, India was already paying Pilatus about Rs 40 crore (Swiss Francs 6.09 million) for each trainer supplied.

The IAF confirms it approached HAL to build 106 PC-7 Mark IIs under license from Pilatus, even while rubbishing HAL's ability to design and build the HTT-40. An IAF statement to Business Standard says, "IAF had invited HAL to manufacture the balance PC-7 Mk II required by IAF under license in India. However, in their own interest HAL declined to participate in license manufacture of the PC-7 Mk II."

Turned away by HAL, Browne bizarrely claimed during the Air Force Day functions on October 8 that the IAF's base repair depots (BRDs) - set up to maintain and overhaul aircraft and engines - could also build aircraft. The IAF chief declared, "The 14 base repair depots (BRDs) have grown in both capability and capacity in a manner that the day is not far when it will be able to develop its own medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA)."

A reality check was quickly provided by the IAF's maintenance chief, Air Marshal

P Kanakaraj, who admitted that assembling aircraft "(would) be a quantum jump in the working of the maintenance command… We are bound to make mistakes initially, so pilot-less aircraft are an ideal platform to start off."

Asked to comment on whether BRDs would now build Pilatus trainers, the IAF responded: "No decision has been taken on manufacturing the trainer aircraft in Base Repair Depot. As and when any decision is taken at a later stage, you would be informed."

Meanwhile, the IAF is squeezing HAL to reflect a higher price for the HTT-40. At a recent meeting in HAL Bangalore, Air Marshal Fernandes flew down from Air Headquarters in New Delhi to demand that a slew of inputs, including the cost of development, be factored into the cost.

Ironically, the IAF glosses over the most compelling argument for an indigenous trainer - the cost of spares, maintenance, overhauls and upgrades during 40 years of operational service. These "life-cycle costs", which add up to at least thrice the procurement cost of an aircraft, would be significantly higher in the case of Pilatus, also creating a dependency on the continuation of the Pilatus manufacturing line.

Business Standard has also highlighted (July 30, 'IAF diluted at least 12 benchmarks for trainer aircraft') the murkiness around the decision to award Pilatus the contract. A range of crucial performance benchmarks were diluted by the IAF after it was decided to buy 75 trainers from the global market, even as HAL developed 106 trainers. Diluting these benchmarks made the PC-7 Mark II eligible for purchase.

The IAF, which pushed through the proposal to import 75 trainers while HAL designed and built 106 HTT-40s now argues that operating two different types of trainers would complicate administration and logistics.

source:Business standard

Honestly speaking IAF wants PC-7s made in Swiss not from HAL. we all know that IAF hate HAL made equipment.

 

[kurup]

It is better HAL accepts this offer by IAF and build PC-7 rather than going alone with development of HTT-40 which by all probability will not get a customer .

 

[kurup]

Honestly speaking IAF wants PC-7s made in Swiss not from HAL. we all know that IAF hate HAL made equipment.

Did you even read the first post of this thread even before posting cr@p .

It is a proposal by IAF chief for HAL to build the PC-7 in India .

And please don't post your delusions as some sort of fact .

 

[Nisha]

IAF and Army Brass in India are totally corrupt......its quite obvious....but no political party will do anything as they are corrupt as well.....

 

[janon]

IAF and Army Brass in India are totally corrupt......its quite obvious....but no political party will do anything as they are corrupt as well.....

And what has this unconstructive rant got to do with the topic?

From the PDF rule book:

RANTING IS PROHIBITED
A rant is a post which is long-winded, redundant and filled with angry, non-constructive comments.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/forum-book/92653-forum-rules-regulations.html#ixzz2hi2y68JP

It is a general tendency of Indians to rant about corruption, no matter what the topic. Without even bothering to explain how it is related to corruption.

 

[Killswitch]

Im with the IAF on this. Get 100% TOT and build the PC7 here. Have 1 basic trainer not 2.

If HAL cant do it, find someone else. HAL has been letting down the IAF for some time now.

 

[faithfulguy]

When their only customer will not buy their product, it is stupidity to spend public money on developing it. Will Tata or Mahindra spend thousands of crores to build a car that they know will never be marketed?

HAL might do it, because what you call their own money is actually taxpayers' money. If it was to come out of the pockets of the executives there, then you can bet they will not work on a product that they cannot market.

That's the difference between doing business with one's own money, and doing business with somebody else's money. ie, the difference between private enterprise and govt run enterprises.

Totally agree with you. Hal should be privatized.

 

[sankranti]

Actually there is a 2nd option that the IAF chief did not comment on.

Have the 106 PC-7 Mark II trainers get built by private players in India like Tata Technologies or Tata Advanced Systems or Reliance.

It is time India kick started a private Aerospace Industry. What better way to do this than a Trainer plane ?

The private player can then take up manufacturing of the LCA as they mature.

That is the way forward.


HAL can grow by building Rafael, PAK-FA & Dhruv.

 

[Sergi]

If HAL is spending own money then there shouldn't be any issues with it, unless it slows down other ongoing projects.

Dude its public money !!!

And why on earth use the money on Basic trainer which is already in service. Why not use this fund and manpower on IJT ??? That is still nowhere. Or are they waiting for IAF to select another IJT to fast track indigenous project ???????

HAL and our other PSUs should keep aside the egos and work for the forces and not for the pride of the organisation.

How can anybody justify the denial of licence producing Swiss plane ??? You failed to work on the same variant all these years and now you want to work on it when IAF got one ?????? Why not work on what they need ???

 

[Abingdonboy]

Dude its public money !!!

And why on earth use the money on Basic trainer which is already in service. Why not use this fund and manpower on IJT ??? That is still nowhere. Or are they waiting for IAF to select another IJT to fast track indigenous project ???????

HAL and our other PSUs should keep aside the egos and work for the forces and not for the pride of the organisation.

How can anybody justify the denial of licence producing Swiss plane ??? You failed to work on the same variant all these years and now you want to work on it when IAF got one ?????? Why not work on what they need ???

The ONLY time HAL actually started getting any momentum behind the HTT-40 was AFTER this PC-7 deal had been signed!! It actually beggars belief that they had this bird on the drawing boards for so long and seemingly devoted almost no attention or resources to it for so long. Where was HAL fast-tracking the design and testing of the HTT-40 after the Deepaks had been grounded? Or god knows how many crashes on the HPT-32s had occurred??


The HJT-36 actually went from initial design to first flight in an impressive 22 months AFAIK so HAL could quite easily IMHO got the HTT-40 off the ground many, MANY years ago.

Actually there is a 2nd option that the IAF chief did not comment on.

Have the 106 PC-7 Mark II trainers get built by private players in India like Tata Technologies or Tata Advanced Systems or Reliance.

It is time India kick started a private Aerospace Industry. What better way to do this than a Trainer plane ?

The private player can then take up manufacturing of the LCA as they mature.

That is the way forward.


HAL can grow by building Rafael, PAK-FA & Dhruv.

It's not up to the IAF to grow the pvt aerospace industry in India. They are merely customers, they want good quality and timely delivery.


It is up to the MoD and GoI to formulate polices that promote pvt sector investment in this arena.

 

[MilSpec]

The ONLY time HAL actually started getting any momentum behind the HTT-40 was AFTER this PC-7 deal had been signed!! It actually beggars belief that they had this bird on the drawing boards for so long and seemingly devoted almost no attention or resources to it for so long. Where was HAL fast-tracking the design and testing of the HTT-40 after the Deepaks had been grounded? Or god knows how many crashes on the HPT-32s had occurred??


The HJT-36 actually went from initial design to first flight in an impressive 22 months AFAIK so HAL could quite easily IMHO got the HTT-40 off the ground many, MANY years ago.


It's not up to the IAF to grow the pvt aerospace industry in India. They are merely customers, they want good quality and timely delivery.


It is up to the MoD and GoI to formulate polices that promote pvt sector investment in this arena.

Pilatus PC7 is sold o US for roughly 3.9 million dollars, which translates to 24cr rupees.... now do you see why IAF wants to hardsell this and why HAL wants to offset another hole in the defence budget... you be the judge.....