IAF might get upto 300 FGFA

[Defence Expert]

^^^^ upgraded Mirage

as i know mirage upgradation has been cancelled due to it's higher cost.please correct me if i am wrong.

 

[jagjitnatt]

You have missed big time

- 126 MMRCA
- 50 Mirage 2000-5 Mk 2
- 139 SEPECAT Jaguar
- 150-200 AMCA

+ 100s of UCAVs

I think IAF will have 1100 to 1250 Fighter Aircraft + 100s of UCAVs

He hasn't missed much.

Mirages would be there, but Jaguars would be phased out by 2020, and AMCA won't come before 2030.
So in 2030 we would have:

126 MRCA
280 Su30MKI
250 FGFA (At least 200 delivered)
51 Mirage 2000-5 Mk II
69 Mig 29 SMT
40 LCA Mk I
120 LCA Mk II

Mig 21/27 would be phased out along with the Jaguars. And we won't get any separate PAKFAs. All our 5th gen aircraft would be FGFA.

Our inventory in 2030 would be around 930 combat aircraft

---------- Post added at 11:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:36 PM ----------

as i know mirage upgradation has been cancelled due to it's higher cost.please correct me if i am wrong.

It hasn't been canceled, just that some people believe its not worth.

 

[notorious_eagle]

The deal for FGFA includes the order of 250 FGFA, so those numbers are not unreal and I do expect China to have at least comparable numbers, but Pakistan? Btw, the MKI will reach 270 around before FGFA induction is planned (2017).

In my opinion China will be fielding more than 250 fighters, as their economy grows so do their ambitions and i am willing to bet their inventory would be greater than that of India. As far as Pakistan is concerned, PAF has never had the intention of matching India's bullet for a bullet. They will induct the necessary number of fighters they feel are necessary for a deterrent, a ratio of 1:3 has always been followed and i believe in this case PAF will try to maintain the ratio.

 

[blain2]

since when is Pakistan going to get 5th generaton aircraft from china? I have not heard about this. Please enlighten.

By the time the 300 FGFA come into service in the IAF, there will be considerable # of FGFA proliferated around the world by various suppliers. Pakistan, of any country aligned with China, tends to get insights into Chinese hardware much before most others do so getting FGFA from China is a distinct possibility, no different than us going for JF-17 and FC-20s. Things look odd at this time since its early, however after a while an FGFA would be no different than the 4/4.5 gen. aircraft of the day.

Lastly, PAF does not need 300 FGFAs to match the IAF. There are certain roles that non-stealth aircraft will perform with upgraded avionics etc. Where we need stealth strike platforms, we will acquire enough to maintain our deterrence (as NE has suggested). All the talk of 300 stealth fighters is relative to time and the posture of the other side. As you acquire certain capability, PLAAF and PAF will respond accordingly.

 

[Storm Force]

Blain

WITH REGARDS to PAF and FGFA have you not considered PAFS current doctrine of buying budget platforms and only single engined fighters.

PAF works on a budget of 1/5th to Indian MILITARY so have maintained a sizeable air force by playing smart ie single engine MRCA cheaper to buy and cheaper to maintain.

JXX is huge twin engined monster and will cost the earth to buy and maintain.

FGFA are typical going to be 6 x the cost of a Single Thunder or 3 x the cost of a F16/52...

I think a single engined FGFA maybe PAFS long term requirement from china in the future

 

[blain2]

Blain

WITH REGARDS to PAF and FGFA have you not considered PAFS current doctrine of buying budget platforms and only single engined fighters.

PAF works on a budget of 1/5th to Indian MILITARY so have maintained a sizeable air force by playing smart ie single engine MRCA cheaper to buy and cheaper to maintain.

JXX is huge twin engined monster and will cost the earth to buy and maintain.

FGFA are typical going to be 6 x the cost of a Single Thunder or 3 x the cost of a F16/52...

I think a single engined FGFA maybe PAFS long term requirement from china in the future

There is nothing either in the PAF doctrine or elsewhere that rules out twin engined platforms for use by the PAF. F-6, easily the most numerous of the aircraft in service with the PAF, was a twin-engined aircraft.

As far as cost goes, it is also relative to time and threat. Israelis have never paid $100 million before but now are for their ~30 F-35s. Pakistan had never paid the amount of money it paid for blk-52s yet the need makes the financing and induction possible.

You should let us worry about how we are going to pay for the platforms that we feel we need.

" JXX is huge twin engined monster and will cost the earth to buy and maintain."

As if the Russian FGFA won't cost immense amounts for India to induct.. When you spend just as much on your civvies in India as you would on the FGFA, then let me know, otherwise it just sounds silly for you to make this case for Pakistan only.

Since Pakistan does not get money from the US to spend on Chinese platforms, we will have to manage that on our own and we will.

 

[Storm Force]

With due respect your a moderator so i will be careful.

Israel purchased and maintained 100 F15 eagles. These are very expensive to buy and maintain. Israel is USA no 1 ally and receives over $5 billion in aid annuly since its inception. They can afford F35s easily. Its not a good example.

The F6 you referrd to was a Chinease copy of a MIG19 that came 2 decades after the MIG19 and was nearly obselete upon arrival compared to world class fighters.

FGFA esp JXX & PAK FA are world class cutting edge weapons. They will cost the earth to buy and even more to maintain.

I,m not convinced that the FGFA will be as widely used as you suggested earlier.

I think they will be for the MAJOR big budget players only for at least 2 decades.

Of course if China or Russia where to build a single engined FGFA at half the cost by 2020 0r 2025 this could change and be more widely affordable

 

[blain2]

With due respect your a moderator so i will be careful.

Israel purchased and maintained 100 F15 eagles. These are very expensive to buy and maintain. Israel is USA no 1 ally and receives over $5 billion in aid annuly since its inception. They can afford F35s easily. Its not a good example.

There was no disrespect meant in my post, so please write in a straightforward manner, so nothing punitive to worry about there.
What Israel manages with the US, we tend to do quite alright in a similar vein with China. This is the point that needs to be understood. Obviously nothing is for free, however with Chinese, we can work out financing and secondly, if Chinese also feel that sharing such technology helps bring stability into the region then we will be alright.

The F6 you referrd to was a Chinease copy of a MIG19 that came 2 decades after the MIG19 and was nearly obselete upon arrival compared to world class fighters.

Sorry to say but my friend you really need to go back and visit/revisit with those who have flown and against the F-6. It was a dog-fighter par-excellence of its time! This would be attested to by many who have flown the aircraft and in the PAF service gave the F-16 the run for its money up until the F-7PGs arrived. When it was deployed by PAF from 1968 and onwards, it was a fairly current aircraft for the time given that other countries were inducting Mig-21s which it took on and got the better of on more than a few occasions during the 1971 war. Pakistani F-6s were as or more potent than the IAF Mig-21s because not only were they more maneuverable than the delta Mig-21, they also had AIM-9 sidewinders integrated. So the gist of my post here is that airframes do not become obsolete so easily. There are things that can be done that allow older aircraft to perform specific tasks quite well.

FGFA esp JXX & PAK FA are world class cutting edge weapons. They will cost the earth to buy and even more to maintain.

Let the aircraft deploy and be evaluated before you can claim cutting-edge. Its one thing to claim something on paper, and another to have that capability translated and functional. Neither JXX nor PAKFA are there yet. Maintenance does not necessarily have to be more expensive. Part of the benefit of leveraging new technologies is that they make troubleshooting and maintenance easier.

I,m not convinced that the FGFA will be as widely used as you suggested earlier.

It will be quite common because F-35 will be sold in a manner similar to the F-16.

I think they will be for the MAJOR big budget players only for at least 2 decades.

What do you think companies that make F-22/F-35/PAKFA/J-10 will do after selling a few hundred here and there? The aircraft will be sold with modular options in various versions (something that has been done all along, and a model that works well from the standpoint of any enterprise involved in money making and increasing the value for its shareholders...Lockheed Martin et-al are no exceptions).

Of course if China or Russia where to build a single engined FGFA at half the cost by 2020 0r 2025 this could change and be more widely affordable

Single engine vs. twin engined argument is a secondary one. F-35 would be available on the market and is a single engine option. Why do you assume that the US aircraft manufacturers would give up their market share of the military aircraft by letting Russians and Chinese take business away from them?

 

[vidyanshu]

well fgfa will be in service from 2017 time frame and not 2035..
by 2020 iaf will have :-
fgfa--250-300
amca(by 2020)-- 250
sukhoi 30mki-- 270
mmrca-- 126-200
mig 29 smt upgraded-- 69
mirage 2000-5 mk.2-- 51
hal tejas mk.1- 40
hal tejas mk.2- 180-200

more thatn 1200 fighters. all very advance..



by 2020 paf will have:-
f16- 63
j10- 36-150
jf-17 thunder- 250...


Any one can see the number and technology gap... INDIA >>>>>> pakistan..

 

[vidyanshu]

Indian Military Future Procurements

Indian Air Force


* Transport aircraft -

1. Boeing C-17 Globemaster III - purchase of 10 aircrafts plus option for 10 more aircrafts.

2.Lockheed Martin C-130J Super Hercules - purchase of 6 aircrafts plus option for 6 more.
3.Alenia C-27J Spartan - IAF looking to purchase 16 of this aircraft. 2 more for BSF Air Wing.

4.UAC/HAL Il-214 Multirole Transport Aircraft (MTA) - Indo-Russian joint venture.The Indian Air Force plans to acquire 45 MTAs.

5.NAL Saras - Indian Air Force intends to place an order for up to 45 aircraft.

*Fighter aircraft -

1. (MMRCA) - 126 aircraft . There is an option for an additional 74 aircraft.Bidders - Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet,Dassault Rafale,Eurofighter Typhoon,Lockheed Martin F-16IN Super Viper,Mikoyan MiG-35,Saab Gripen NG.

2. HAL TEJAS - The IAF is reported to have a requirement for 200 single-seat and 20 two-seat conversion trainers.
3.Sukhoi/HAL FGFA - Indo-Russian joint venture.Indian Air Force will get 200 twin-seated and 50 single seated FGFAs.The option for further orders will be kept open.

4. Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft - IAF has a requirement of at least 250 AMCAs.

*Trainer aircraft -

1.Tender For 181 basic trainer aircraft - bidders : Grob G-120TP, Embraer EMB 314 Super Tucano, Korean Aerospace Industries KT-1, Finmeccanica M-311 and Pilatus PC-7 .

2.HAL HJT-36 Sitara - The Indian Air Force has placed placed an order for 73 aircraft, of which the first 12 are in production.The order by the Indian Air Force could eventually grow to 250 aircraft.

3.HAL HTT-40 - will replace HAL HPT-32 Deepak as basic trainer in IAF.
4. BAE HAWK - 123 Ordered.

*Airborne early warning aircraft -

1. DRDO AEW&CS - 4 system on order plus additional 20 systems .

2.Beriev A-50 [ PHALCON AWACS ] - 3 operational , order for additional 3 likely.
* Attack helicopter -

1.LCH - Order of 65 LCH to IAF.
2. Tender for 22 attack helicopters - Bidders : AH-64D Apache Longbow,Mi-28.

* Transport and utility helicopters -

1. Tender for 15 heavy lift helicopters - Bidders : CH-47 Chinook,Mi-26.

2. Mi-17 V-5 - order for 80 plus additional 59 placed .

3. AgustaWestland AW101 - order for 12 helicopters placed . will be used for VIP transport.

4.Tender for 125 light transport helicopter Along with 197 for Army aviation.

5.HAL light observation helicopter [ LOH ] or Light Utility helicopter [LUH] - Requirement for 384 helicopters including for army and air force.
* Unmanned aerial vehicles -
1.Tender For stealth UCAV - The Indian air force has submitted a request for information to international suppliers for a unmanned combat air vehicle (UCAV) with low radar cross-section, high service ceiling, an expected range of 500nm (925km) and the capability to carry precision-guided weapons in an internal weapons bay.

2.RUSTOM MALE UAV - The Rustom will replace/supplement the Heron UAVs in service with the Indian armed forces
3. AURA UCAV - The AURA UCAV will be a tactical stealth aircraft built largely with composites, and capable of delivering laser-guided strike weapons. It would be a stealthy flying-wing concept aircraft with internal weapons and a turbofan engine.

* Cruise missiles -
1.Nirbhay cruise missile - is a long range, subsonic cruise missile . The missile will have a range of 1,000 km and will arm three services. First test flight by early 2012.

* Surface to air missile systems -
1. SPYDER SAM systems - India to acquire 18 of this system.
2. Maitri (missile) - The Maitri missile project is a next-generation Quick Reaction Surface-to-Air Missile (QRSAM) with a lethal hundred per cent kill probability .

* Air TO Air Missile
1.Astra (missile) BVRAAM .




Indian Navy

* Surface to air missile system -
1. Barak II - Indian - israel joint venture on new generation surface to air missile system deployed on warships.
* Submarine-launched ballistic missile -
1.Sagarika [ k 15 ] - is a nuclear-capable submarine-launched ballistic missile with a range of 700 kilometres .

2. K-4 SLBM - DRDO is working on a Submarine Launched Version of the Agni-III missile, which will provide India with a credible sea based second strike capability.

3. K-5 SLBM - Submarine Launched Version of the Agni-V missile.

NAVAL AIR ARM

* Fighter Aircraft -
1. Mig 29 K - Naval Air Arm has 45 MiG-29K/KUB aircraft on order .

2. NAVAL lCA TEJAS - Navy has requirement of 50 of this aircraft. 6 Ordered.

3. Additional Fighter Aircraft - Indian Navy has issued RFI to various fighter aircraft manufacturers including Boeing for F-18 Super Hornet & Dassault for its Rafale fighters.These aircraft will be used for supplements to MIG29K's operating from Indigenous & Vikramaditya class aircraft carriers.

4. Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft - Indian Navy has shown interest in the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft to operate from future super carriers.

* Long Range Maritime Patrol Aircraft -

1. P-8I Poseidon - 8 + additional 4 on order.
*Medium Range Maritime Reconnaissance Aircraft -
1. Tender for 6 plus additional 6 aircraft - Bidders : ATR-72MP/ ATR-42MP, EADS C-295MPA/C-235MPA, Dassault's Falcon 900MPA and Embraer P-99A platforms.

*Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW&C) -
1.E-2D Advanced Hawkeye - order of 6 aircraft for future carriers.

NAL SARAS - 15 Aircrafts on order.to replace Dorniers.

* ASW Helicopter
1. Tender for 60 helicopters. AgustaWestland, EADS and Sikorsky possible bidders.

* Unmanned aerial vehicles -
1. unmanned helicopter - Joint venture between India - israel .This helicopter is under development and will be based on the HAL-built Cheetah helicopters. requirement for 40 helicopters.

2. Rustom UAV .

* Utility Helicopter -
1. Light Utility helicopter - requirement for 50 helicopters.

* Trainer Aircraft
1. BAE HAWK - 17 on order.
2.HAL HJT-36 SITARA .

WarShips Of Indian Navy

* Aircraft Carriers -
1. INS VIKRAMADITYA

2. Vikrant class aircraft carriers
i. INS VIKRANT - 40,OOO TON to be commisioned by 2014
ii. INS VISHAL - 65,OOO TON to be commisioned by 2017
plans to built atleast 1 more aircraft carrier .

* Nuclear Submarines
1.Arihant Class Submarines - 1 launched [INS ARIHANT ] , 3 under construction , further 4 planned to follow on.

2.Akula class submarine - 1 commisioned , 1 planned to be commisioned under lease . option for buying this submarines.
3. SSN - 9 Submarines planned , will escort SSBN. Government approval given.

* SUBMARINES
1. Project 75 [ scorpene submarines ] - 6 under construction + proposal for 3 more planned.
2. Project 75 I - 6 Submarines planned - RFI released.

3. Indigenous submarine - 12 planned . Not yet Approved By government.

4. Midget submarines - 5 planned - RFI Issued.

* DESTROYERS
1.Project 15 A [ Kolkata class destroyer ] - 3 under construction.
2.project 15 B - 4 Planned . approved by MoD. work to begin after completion of 15 A.

* FRIGATES
1.Project 17 [ Shivalik class Frigate ] - 1 commisioned , 2 under construction.
2.Project 17 A - 7 planned . construction to start by 2011.
3.Talwar class Frigate - 3 commisioned , 2 under sea trials , 1 under construction . total 6.

* CORVETTES
1. Project 28 [ Kamorta class Corvette ] - 4 under construction.
2.Project 28 A [ Kamorta class follow on ] - 8 on order.

* MINESWEEPER
1. Osprey class - 2 to be acquired.

*Mine countermeasure vessels - 2 under constrution.

* Patrol crafts
1.Saryu class patrol vessel - 4 under construction.
2.Car Nicobar class fast attack craft - 7 commisioned , 3 launched . total 10 vessels.
3. Offshore Patrol Vessels [ saryu class vessel follow on ] - order for 5 vessels placed.

*Replenishment Ship
1.Deepak class - 1 commisioned , 1 under construction.

* Training ship
1.sudarshini class - 1 under construction.
2.sail training ship - 1 on order.

*Survey Vessel - 6 on order.

* Amphibious Warfare
1. Landing Platform Dock [LPD] - 4 Planned , approved by Ministry.
2.Landing Ship Tanks - 14 planned.



















INDIAN ARMY

* Main Battle Tank
1.T -90 bhishma - India plans to induct Total 1657 tanks by 2020 . 620 already in service.

2.Arjun MBT - 248 On order - 170 Inducted .

3. Arjun MBT mk 2 - Trials by 2011. Production By 2014.

4.FMBT - The FMBT will be a lighter tank of 50 tons. Development work started.

* MISSILES
i. Intercontinental Ballastic Missile
1. AGNI V - 5,000 km - 6,000 km , test by 2011.
2. Surya ICBM - The Surya missile is a speculation about an Inter Continental ballistic missile being developed by India.Sources say the DRDO's most treasured dream—denied in public—remains the development of an ICBM with a range of 15,000 kilometres, already christened Surya or sun, to match Chinese DF-3 ICBMs. Range 12,000 to 16,000 kilometers.

ii.Cruise Missile
1. Nirbhay Missile

2 . Brahmos and Brahmos - 2 missile.

iii.Tactical Ballastic Missile
1. Shaurya Missile - It has a range of between 750 to 1900 km .

iv.Anti-Tank Guided Missiles
1. Nag Anti-tank guided missile.
2. Helina Air launched Anti-tank missile.

*Indian Ballistic Missile Defense Program- The Indian Ballistic Missile Defense Program is an initiative to develop and deploy a multi-layered ballistic missile defense system to protect India from ballistic missile attacks.

* Vehicles
1.Mahindra Axe - Light utility vehicle to be purchased.
2.Kroton - Possible sale of 80 mine laying vehicles from Poland.
3.Light Tank - 300 tanks (200 tracked 100 wheeled) to be deployed on china border.
4.AHS Krab - Possible sale of 110 from Poland. deal along with kroton .
5.PZA Loara - Possible sale of 100 from Poland. deal along with Kroton.

*ARTILLERY SYSTEM
1.Under the Field Artillery Rationalization Plan, Indian Army plans to procure 3000 to 4000
155 mm Towed, Wheeled and Tracked Artillery Systems.The requirement for artillery guns to be met with indigenous development and production.

2.M777 howitzer - 145 British designed howitzers were planned to be acquired.
* F-INSAS - Futuristic Infantry Soldier As a System(F-INSAS) is the Indian Army's principal modernization program from 2012 to 2020.In the first phase, to be completed by 2012,the infantry soldiers will be equipped with modular weapon systems that will have multi-functions.The Indian Army intends to modernize its entire 465 infantry and paramilitary battalions by 2020 with this program.

*Modern Sub Machine Carbine - The Modern Sub Machine Carbine (MSMC) is the latest combined venture of ARDE & OFB, developed for the Indian Army on a platform of experiences from the INSAS rifle.

*ARMY AVIATION

1. Tender for 197 light transport helicopter Along with 125 for Air Force.To Replace Cheetak and Cheetah Helicopters of Armed Forces.

2. HAL light observation helicopter [ LOH ] or Light Utility helicopter [LUH] - Requirement for 384 helicopters including for army and air force.

3. LCH [ Light Combat Helicopter ] - Order of 114 helicopters to Army.















































Strategic Nuclear Command
* Plans To acquire Fighter Jets capable of delivering nuclear weapons.
40 fighters - 2 squadrons.

 

[tvsram1992]

300FGFA
150F-35/Single engined stealth fighter bi Indo-Russia
200AMCA
at 2040 seems reasonable.
650 stealth aircrafts.

 

[JayAtl]

well fgfa will be in service from 2017 time frame and not 2035..
by 2020 iaf will have :-
fgfa--250-300
amca(by 2020)-- 250
sukhoi 30mki-- 270
mmrca-- 126-200
mig 29 smt upgraded-- 69
mirage 2000-5 mk.2-- 51
hal tejas mk.1- 40
hal tejas mk.2- 180-200

more thatn 1200 fighters. all very advance..



by 2020 paf will have:-
f16- 63
j10- 36-150
jf-17 thunder- 250...


Any one can see the number and technology gap... INDIA >>>>>> pakistan..

comparing superiority over PAK is a fallacy. The minimum deterrence standard has to be measured against China's military and not Pak because they ( china)are the big dogs in this region. You don't just prepare for the weaker of the two threats ( military )in the region, you prepare for the strongest adversary. Whether war will happen or not is irrelevant- its about deterrence. US and Nato prepared itself to meet challenges during the cold war to USSR's standard and not to China's.

 

[naveenp]

well fgfa will be in service from 2017 time frame and not 2035..
by 2020 iaf will have :-
fgfa--250-300
amca(by 2020)-- 250
sukhoi 30mki-- 270
mmrca-- 126-200
mig 29 smt upgraded-- 69
mirage 2000-5 mk.2-- 51
hal tejas mk.1- 40
hal tejas mk.2- 180-200

more thatn 1200 fighters. all very advance..



by 2020 paf will have:-
f16- 63
j10- 36-150
jf-17 thunder- 250...


Any one can see the number and technology gap... INDIA >>>>>> pakistan..

friend please correct it by 2020 we are not going to induct 250-300 FGFA, i think 50 is possible figure.

 

[tvsram1992]

We have more than enough of airsuperiority fighters. We need to concentrate on striking.

 

[conworldus]

It is already mid 2011 and you think a plane that's still on paper can enter service in 6 years. Do you even plan to test flight???
Also you think that the FGFA will be 250 numbered in 2020? Even if they start mass producing today, they would need to make 25 planes a year which will be the full capacity of at least 2 production lines. Oh and 250 AMCA in 2020, too? India hasn't even started the actual design of it. You are either day dreaming of some sort of magician.

Also by the way the Russians have repeatedly said that even the PAK FA is still a prototype that will undergo structural change. I highly doubt that it can enter service in 2015 as the Russians proclaimed. I think India has had a taste of Russian delays with the aircraft carrier purchase.

well fgfa will be in service from 2017 time frame and not 2035..
by 2020 iaf will have :-
fgfa--250-300
amca(by 2020)-- 250
sukhoi 30mki-- 270
mmrca-- 126-200
mig 29 smt upgraded-- 69
mirage 2000-5 mk.2-- 51
hal tejas mk.1- 40
hal tejas mk.2- 180-200

more thatn 1200 fighters. all very advance..



by 2020 paf will have:-
f16- 63
j10- 36-150
jf-17 thunder- 250...


Any one can see the number and technology gap... INDIA >>>>>> pakistan..