IAF losing edge over PAF:Military Intelligence.

[foxbat]

Pilot skill is the one and only factor that will always matter unless AI takes over the job of flying aircraft. Employing BVR requires considerable skill and even more so to avoid a BVRAAM. The way the aircraft is positioned for a weapons employment solution will always require skilled pilots who really understand and train hard on tactics. WIth WVR, which is not gone despite what people say (it reminds me of the USAF's decision to get rid of the gun on the F-4 because they thought all engagements would be with AAMs and were proven wrong).

Airforces such as PAF and IAF will come fairly close and without a shadow of doubt get engaged in WVR combat.

As I said, this was just an observation within the context. And I dont mean the pilot skill is not a factor. Just that the ratio between the importance of machine capability and pilot skill today is very different from what it was in the days when Spit fires took on the Me 109s over London.


On a different note, what a blood bath this thread has seen

 

[foxbat]

not necessarily given the fact that PAF is primarily a defensive force with offensive-defence capability......

also keep in mind that the neighbour country will be retiring many of their older aircrafts as they are reaching or have already reached their service lives (we're in the same boat but have a viable replacement in store already).

also, india does have flagship fighters like the flankers which are qualitatively ahead of most of what we have in our fleets......however with recent inductions we do have access to tech and capabilities that have closed the tech. gap between us and the enemy --not limited to force multipliers like AEW&C but also the AMRAAMS ('charlies') and F-solas undergoing structural and internal upgradations

we are a smaller country with fewer resources but the pilot training imparted will ensure that we know every trick in the book; we know how to plan for enemy tactics and --based on records and attritions -- our flight safety record is more than respectable. Flight safety is often un-spoken about but it is crucial for any professional air force.


at the end of the day, as long as we can keep our skies saffron-free --- then 99% of the mission is complete. Thus far, we've done pretty well -- again, despite all odds against us.


not trying to sound pompous or over-confident here. Just saying.

It was such a nice and informative post right in sequence after Mastankhan's post before you hit with the religious bull sh1t

Disappointed.. Yes

Surprised . No

 

[kingdurgaking]

Let us move away from a pilot better then b pilot. Let us focus on the planes. Since no one has followed both PAF and IAF training we can skip that part. And if the IAF was that good then how come that since inception the IAF had better material, better pilots, 1 to 5 ration advantage and still there was no huge loss on the Pakistani side? I mean we saw how Israel pretty much destroyed either anything in the ground or up in the air. How come India did not achieve that while they should have done it with two hands down? Was it different era? Doubt that.There were even the same planes! We can conclude that Pakistani Airforce is pretty good. It has no other choice and it is even the motto said by Qaid Azam. "Second to none".So if quality, quantity and environment (no depth) is disadvantage then it is corrected with other methods.

First of all IAF was not attacking.. it was PAF which was attacking.. and naturally it is correct for PAF to destroy max fighters on ground.. same as Israel did... IAF was hands tight for this attack because there were no radars located on the borders.. and how information is communicated is by posting a person on the border with binoculars.. on other had PAF had radars deployed... which shows how much sophisticated Pakistan was in comparison to IAF... which is why i am arguing that nowerdays it is not possible for PAF to repeat the same

secondly if IAF hadnt loose all the planes.. it is PAF which would have suffered the maximum damage.. which 3-4 squad up in air what would have PAF done?

About the ability to do something. Let us compare the production hall of LCA with that of the JF17. You can say a lot but there is extremely clear difference. Look at the halls, look at the people and then tell me what is professional and clean. Things that we all can see and judge. I am not going to say that LCA is less or more but I do have to say that the Indian side has a lot to improve. I admire their intentions and ideas but there is a huge gap with reality. Still, in a world with only a few nations able to make planes these days, India is trying to get that done.

Hall and people looks are not needed for manufacturing planes and it doesnt matter.. India has technology and can produce planes... which is very important..

 

[muse]

F-16, F-18: The Indian mother of all deals for 126 new fighters is still incomplete more than ten years after the IAF said it needed the aircraft urgently.

To my thinking, this is what the whole business about how the IAF is losing it's edge is all about -- The two greatest edge the IAF has over the PAF are of course, the budget of the IAF and the diplomacy of the Indian state.

 

[Silk]

It is pretty much the same shouting from the US lobby when it comes to F22 or JSF production. You will hear suddenly that Chinese become dominant through FC20 (which has just flown for the second time officially) or that Russia becomes dangerous again. The Indians have the same lobby and its instruments. But is is surely the truth that PAF is improving rapidly. While India had decades Mach 3 planes flying over Islamabad the PAF was just hearing the sonic booms of the Mig25. While India had BVR for decades PAF was still arming AIM9 and derivatives. Now with Babur, Ra'ad, Nasr, MAR, SD10, AMRAAM it is not much different then what IAF has. The same goes for Block52/MLU, JF17, (J10B in the future), Erieye+ZDK03, IL78 to name a few. Surely numerical it is a tough fight but it is no longer the bow against the sniper.

 

[muse]

Now if The Fauj developed concepts and capabilities that can help the armed forces do a credible, efficient and lethal job of dispatching Pakistan's domestic enemies and project power abroad, well, then the idea that PAF may be in a position to challenge the IAF, may at least be considered seriously.

 

[Safriz]

IAF persuing hevey weight elephants. PAF strategy .......swarms of hornets.
The price in which they will have one pakfa PAF can have at least two j-10
Similar has been the case,always

 

[foxbat]

IAF persuing hevey weight elephants. PAF strategy .......swarms of hornets.
The price in which they will have one pakfa PAF can have at least two j-10
Similar has been the case,always

Err.. Are we forgetting the Su 30s, Mirages, 29s, LCA and others. Sir, different aircrafts for different theaters..Just gives you that many more options to chose from when needed..

For example,

When you want to take your girlfriend out on a date, what would you prefer.. 1 Mercedes or 10 Suzuki mehrans

 

[Safriz]

Err.. Are we forgetting the Su 30s, Mirages, 29s, LCA and others. Sir, different aircrafts for different theaters..Just gives you that many more options to chose from when needed..

For example,

When you want to take your girlfriend out on a date, what would you prefer.. 1 Mercedes or 10 Suzuki mehrans

Lol, funny That

Long range planes like su 30' may be good for USSR,as they had to go half way around the world to attack the enemy,but why india wou.d need that capanility?
If Pakistan doesnt have a plane that can go all the way to moon.bomb moon and comeback,thats because Pakistan doesnt need that capability.

 

[Dazzler]

This is a reality what IAF today is facing, a diminishing inventory of fighter fleet along with the real edge it had 15-10 years ago i.e. BVR capability. Today, PAF has an increasing number of new inductions of blk 52s, JFTs and old Falcon inventory being upgraded in Turkey with MLU-3 standard which will make it BVR capable. We have active BVR inventory now and let me correct those who think PAF was fool enough not to practice counter BVR tactics, infact, they have been doing so since 90s. Do not go much into future inductions like FGFA or J-20 etc, rather discuss the situation currently being faced by both AFs. IAF is in a dire need of MMRCA and LCA induction today more than ever because if they do not, they will be left in a similar situation we were in the 90s when we had to rely on Falcons for virtually everything. Every delay in new platform induction is hurting them dearly.

 

[foxbat]

Lol, funny That

Long range planes like su 30' may be good for USSR,as they had to go half way around the world to attack the enemy,but why india wou.d need that capanility?
If Pakistan doesnt have a plane that can go all the way to moon.bomb moon and comeback,thats because Pakistan doesnt need that capability.

Again, India has to plan for both its eastern and western neighborhoods. And having a long range does not automatically disqualify a plane for short range operations. The same is exemplified by the role of Mirages in the Kargil theater.

But any way as I said, there is a time for swarm of hornets and another for an elephant. Its all about options available at hand..

 

[Storm Force]

To Summarise

PAF has caught up India by introducing AWACS BVRS and refullers.
The numerical GAP is falling from 2.2-1 to 1.7-1 to today.......... and may fall further with IAF retiring its mig fleet by 2017.

The most CAPABLE combat plane in South Asia is Either the SU30MKI or for some people F16/52
The PAF has around 100 4TH G BVR capable fighters THE IAF around 250
PAF next fighter will be the FC20 delivery starting 2014-2015
IAF next fighter will be MMRCA winner starting around 2014
IAF has already started to plan for 5 gen fighter in FGFA Paf has not got concrete plans as yet
IAF currently outspends PAF by 5-1 and this gap may well get wider if the 2 countries maintain current growth rates.

I hope i,m not being jingo istic

if i am delete the the post

 

[Markus]

Lol, funny That

Long range planes like su 30' may be good for USSR,as they had to go half way around the world to attack the enemy,but why india wou.d need that capanility?
If Pakistan doesnt have a plane that can go all the way to moon.bomb moon and comeback,thats because Pakistan doesnt need that capability.

Pakistan is chotta-sa but China is motta-sa.

Even our massive MKI's will need aerial refueling if we are to carry out strikes on critical targets in china.

 

[SpArK]

Pakistan is chotta-sa but China is motta-sa.

Even our massive MKI's will need aerial refueling if we are to carry out strikes on critical targets in china.

Thats Technically correct.. Most of the major cities are within 100 kms from Border lines..


Those nanha munna ..chotta distance wala missiles can be fatal.

 

[Safriz]

I dont think India can attack china,and deep inside china? They will start with shooting your satellites out of the sky making your network centric to zero centric. Then they will jam the hell out of your plane's radars a d coms before shooting them like blind birds.