IAF has '98' Su-30 MKIs; to have 230 by 2015: Defence Minister

[anathema]

The word ‘procured’ in the article is the reporter’s own concoction! He/she does not quote the defence minister there. So, your logic is flawed fundamentally.

Here, I have managed to get my hands on the original Rajya Sabha transcript for 8th July 2009.



page 3, of Transcript of Rajya Sabha proceedings- http://164.100.47.5/newdebate/217/08072009/Fullday.pdf

So, in the minister's own words- "At the moment, Indian Air Force has got 98 Sukhois.", no 'procured', no 'delivered', no BS, simple plain English!

Chao!

On a lighter note .....Doesnt matter what the transcript is.....next thing the argument is going to be....

Antony just said, India has got 98 su 30's .....he didnt say India has inducted them.....there's a lot of difference between Induction and having just the planes.....and people will believe when they see 98 planes parked on a tarmac.

 

[blain2]

So how many of the MKs have been upgraded to the MKIs?

The breakdown from an initial contract in 96 was as follows:

Under this original contract, Su-30s would be delivered to the IAF in four batches:

* The first batch (Su-30MK-I) of 8 aircraft would be delivered in 1997. These were 'standard' Su-30s (a development of the Su-27UB) and contained 100% (probably) Russian components and are primarily sir-superiority aircraft only. These fighters were first delivered to India at Lohegaon AFS in March 1997. They were inducted into the IAF on 11 June 1997 by the then Prime Minister, Inder Kumar Gujral. These planes are currently in service with IAF with serial nos SB001 to SB008 in the No. 24 Hawks squadron based at Lohegaon AFS.

* The second batch (Su-30MK-IIs) of another 8 aircraft would be delivered in 1998 and would be fitted with Sextant Avionique's avionics from France, liquid crystal multi-function displays (MFDs), a new flight data recorder, a dual ring laser gyro INS (inertial navigation system) with embedded GPS (Global Positioning Satellite), EW (Electronic Warfare) equipment procured from Israel's IAI (Israeli Aircraft Industries), a new electro-optical targeting system and a RWR (Radar Warning Receiver).

* The third batch (Su-30MK-IIIs) of 12 aircraft would be delivered in 1999 and would feature canard foreplanes

* The fourth and final batch (Su-30MKIs) of 12 aircraft would be delivered in 2000 and would add the AL-31FP turbofans.

Have all the older airframes been retrofitted to the MKI standard?

 

[sancho]

So how many of the MKs have been upgraded to the MKIs?

The breakdown from an initial contract in 96 was as follows:

Under this original contract, Su-30s would be delivered to the IAF in four batches:

* The first batch (Su-30MK-I) of 8 aircraft would be delivered in 1997. These were 'standard' Su-30s (a development of the Su-27UB) and contained 100% (probably) Russian components and are primarily sir-superiority aircraft only. These fighters were first delivered to India at Lohegaon AFS in March 1997. They were inducted into the IAF on 11 June 1997 by the then Prime Minister, Inder Kumar Gujral. These planes are currently in service with IAF with serial nos SB001 to SB008 in the No. 24 Hawks squadron based at Lohegaon AFS.

* The second batch (Su-30MK-IIs) of another 8 aircraft would be delivered in 1998 and would be fitted with Sextant Avionique's avionics from France, liquid crystal multi-function displays (MFDs), a new flight data recorder, a dual ring laser gyro INS (inertial navigation system) with embedded GPS (Global Positioning Satellite), EW (Electronic Warfare) equipment procured from Israel's IAI (Israeli Aircraft Industries), a new electro-optical targeting system and a RWR (Radar Warning Receiver).

* The third batch (Su-30MK-IIIs) of 12 aircraft would be delivered in 1999 and would feature canard foreplanes

* The fourth and final batch (Su-30MKIs) of 12 aircraft would be delivered in 2000 and would add the AL-31FP turbofans.

Have all the older airframes been retrofitted to the MKI standard?

No one was upgraded, they where sold back to Russia and replaced by new MKIs deliverd from Irkut in 2007 and 2008.

Instead India ordered 18 additional new-built Su-30MKI from Irkut. Irkut plans to deliver the first 12 of these before the end of 2007. Russia will buy back the Su-30Ks for $12 million per aircraft, planning to upgrade them to Su-30KN and resell them

MILAVIA Aircraft - Sukhoi Su-27 Flanker Operators

 

[xebex]

Finally Screaming skull saved my @zz.

 

[blain2]

To be very honest, from a factual standpoint the original disagreement is still not resolved. However from a reality standpoint, it matters little. If you do not have 100 right now, you may for sure by next year.

 

[maverick2009]

98 mki or 100mki its irrelevant.

Lets just say IAF has a large fleet of operational MKI which will rise to 230 by 2014 ..

 

[Gucci Juice]

LoL I do laugh somewhat with your comments. Ok lets try again.....55 plus 40 (additional Irkut airframes) anyone? Procurement does not mean delivery. Ahve a nice day!

didn't i show u a pic of sb 052 and sb 122?

that means that according to your rules (sb 0-sb 40 irkut and sb 100 onward is hal)

there are at least 74 mki's in service.

and 98 according to the antony guy.

i dont understand why u underestimate negative things and overestimate positive things to ur country.

and according to members on this forum there should be 250 jf-17's by 2015 right?

well here's my estimate, there has been a contract for only 42 and that too on a soft loan. and here's my production estimate...

2009 10 + 8 prototype
2010 12
2011 20
2012 30
2013 30
2014 30
2015 30

and this isn't a very conservative forecast either and the 30 means china+u guys btw.

so according to my forecast by 2015 u should have roughly 170 jf-17s.

80 away from 250.

and with 100 f-16/j-20

that gives u a grand total of 270 4th gen a/c and if 80 more jf-17s do arrive that's 350 a/c.

and by then there should be 230+110 upgraded mig-29/m2k+20-40 mrca+20-50 lca+16 mig-29k+possibility of 30 more mig-29k.

that's roughly 496-576 4th gen a/c

and dont count m2k/mig-29 as old fighters the m2k upgrade costs as much as 1 jf-17 and that's only for avionics and radar and maybe a new engine, and mig-29 will be upgraded to mig-35 standard without aesa, and tvc.

 

[maverick2009]

I would be shocked and very impressed if PAF acquired 170 JF17 by 2015.

Those JF17 will cost $15m each and the first 42 are coming via soft loans they are not paying for them on delivery each year like indians.

Taking aside national pride jingoism does anybody know when those 8 prototypes will pass IOC.

I know somebody will say we have funds set aside but wat funds are these.

Forex is at $8 billion and a new IMF loan has just been granted for $7.5 billion and Zaradari is screaming for more help.

It will take the USA 2 years to deliver 18 F16/52s to PAF

it taken india 6 years to obtain 100 su30mki

Don,t forget the PAF wants to add western engine & radar that will take time and serious money.

Most nations simply can,t add much more than 15 planes a year due to pilot training and infrastucture support development.

But may be Pakistan is better than most

 

[Gucci Juice]

maverick my estimate was optomistic but a conserative estimate would be around 100

09 20
10 30
11 45
12 60
13 75
14 95
15 120



I doubt civil war will be over soon and the financial crisis is only making the problem worse and even 150 jf17 with new engine and avionics is going to cost some serious money. The lca costs almost twice that of jf17 due to better engine in terms of reliability according to people ln this forum who say Russian engines are maintenence nightmare, and also better avionics included in that 30 million price. So roughly ur looking at an extra 15 million for better plane

 

[sudhir007]

maverick my estimate was optomistic but a conserative estimate would be around 100

09 20
10 30
11 45
12 60
13 75
14 95
15 120



I doubt civil war will be over soon and the financial crisis is only making the problem worse and even 150 jf17 with new engine and avionics is going to cost some serious money. The lca costs almost twice that of jf17 due to better engine in terms of reliability according to people ln this forum who say Russian engines are maintenence nightmare, and also better avionics included in that 30 million price. So roughly ur looking at an extra 15 million for better plane

Dear friend the Ist lot of jf17 blk1 come at end of this yr. With no. of 10 so the total u get at the end of yr 10+8. So it mean next 6yr you have to produce @ 25 a/c per yr. but there you are only producing only 42 blk-1 which is loan given by china and after that nobody knows...??? U try to say that blk-2 with new engine, radar and other avionic add without any testing my friend it will take another 2-3 yr for test hole thing. One more think now it will come at under $20-25 Million for blk-1and for blk-2 it will come at $30-35 million when u don’t have money to buy blk-1 asking loan from other country how will you proceed for blk-2 or that no. Which you are talking (150 or may be 250) in this case china is not interested to buy this plane did you think it will go for again testing process for blk-2 or you are try for this don’t make me . It is not easy dear to integrate the entire think in one plane did you have qualified engineer & R&D facilities….

 

[IAF]

Dear friend the Ist lot of jf17 blk1 come at end of this yr. With no. of 10 so the total u get at the end of yr 10+8. So it mean next 6yr you have to produce @ 25 a/c per yr. but there you are only producing only 42 blk-1 which is loan given by china and after that nobody knows...??? U try to say that blk-2 with new engine, radar and other avionic add without any testing my friend it will take another 2-3 yr for test hole thing. One more think now it will come at under $20-25 Million for blk-1and for blk-2 it will come at $30-35 million when u don’t have money to buy blk-1 asking loan from other country how will you proceed for blk-2 or that no. Which you are talking (150 or may be 250) in this case china is not interested to buy this plane did you think it will go for again testing process for blk-2 or you are try for this don’t make me . It is not easy dear to integrate the entire think in one plane did you have qualified engineer & R&D facilities….

Well said mate.. @ this time they cant include 240-250 JF-17 AC in or around 2015.

 

[Gucci Juice]

well no matter what u can expect at least 75 by 2015 that's a pessimistic prediction.

 

[blain2]

Those JF17 will cost $15m each and the first 42 are coming via soft loans they are not paying for them on delivery each year like indians.

Taking aside national pride jingoism does anybody know when those 8 prototypes will pass IOC.

I know somebody will say we have funds set aside but wat funds are these.

Forex is at $8 billion and a new IMF loan has just been granted for $7.5 billion and Zaradari is screaming for more help.

It will take the USA 2 years to deliver 18 F16/52s to PAF

it taken india 6 years to obtain 100 su30mki

Don,t forget the PAF wants to add western engine & radar that will take time and serious money.

Most nations simply can,t add much more than 15 planes a year due to pilot training and infrastucture support development.

But may be Pakistan is better than most

Do you even think before you post? I really wonder sometimes.

Those JF17 will cost $15m each and the first 42 are coming via soft loans they are not paying for them on delivery each year like indians.

And you think India pays cash for the MKIs it receives?
Every major purchase is financed. Its just depends on where the money is coming from. Pakistan will finance the purchase as do other countries.

Taking aside national pride jingoism does anybody know when those 8 prototypes will pass IOC.

It will pass IOC when the Peshawar based sqn re-equips with the JF-17 which is prior to December of this year, which means the TEF has to work out the problems and conduct the required sorties to make the platform attain IOC.

I know somebody will say we have funds set aside but wat funds are these.

Forex is at $8 billion and a new IMF loan has just been granted for $7.5 billion and Zaradari is screaming for more help.

Have you ever used a credit card? Do you realize how it works? If you have a balance on it, do you HAVE to pay the principal off every month or do you make an installment payment? Obviously you could pay it all off if you had the money, but the governments have to see what makes sense for them. Maybe its better for them to hold the money so they can collect higher interest on the investment vs. paying off a liability such as the cost of the aircraft. So you cannot simply take $8 billion in Forex (they are actually close to $12 right now) and then think about the aid as a lump sum. The aid too is split across multiple years and may come in the form of money or credits to buy something. The point is that these transactions are not as simple as buying something for $2 billion and then paying them off with $2 billion and being done with it.

In the late 90s, I recall I had read that India was still paying off loans it had taken from the USSR government in the late 60s and 70s and these loans were on very low interest rates. Most of the countries have such long term debt that takes years to pay off.

It will take the USA 2 years to deliver 18 F16/52s to PAF

it taken india 6 years to obtain 100 su30mki

Don,t forget the PAF wants to add western engine & radar that will take time and serious money.

Most nations simply can,t add much more than 15 planes a year due to pilot training and infrastucture support development.

Then they are some dip **** airforces. Pakistan has absorbed 30-40 aircraft within active sqns in a matter of months. Its all a matter of priority. Currently the JF-17 program is a very high-priority one. All else such as pilot training and logistics are put in place in accordance with that priority. PAF will ensure that we have the infrastructure and the pilot training in place to absorb 15-30 JF-17s/year at a minimum.

 

[maverick2009]

Blain with due respect.

You can,t call the RAF or the French Air force Dip **** Air forces..

I am not disputing the JF17 will not enter service it has entered service already with 8 prototypes.

But if it takes IAF a country with far bigger resources than PAF ... 10 YEARS to induct 230 fighters (with 90 coming from russia) or indeed

RAF will take the same time to induct 200 Typhoons

How can PAF induct 30 planes a year. " brand new planes" ??

Its not the same as buying 50 second hand MIRAGE 5 then refubishing them"

 

[IAF]

LoL I do laugh somewhat with your comments. Ok lets try again.....55 plus 40 (additional Irkut airframes) anyone? Procurement does not mean delivery. Ahve a nice day!

here is a Picture already posted by another member of SB052 and SB122