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IAF-HAL tiff threatens to shatter indigenization quest

thestringshredder

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NEW DELHI: India's quest to indigenize its military aviation sector has taken a sharp nosedive, with a bitter battle raging between the country's only aircraft manufacturer Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) and its primary customer IAF on projects ranging from trainer aircraft to the futuristic fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA).

The defence ministry, however, seems to be twiddling its thumbs in masterly inaction. IAF is aghast that HAL has proposed "surrendering 30% of its 50% work-share" in jointly developing the FGFA called Sukhoi T-50 or PAK-FA with Russia, while remains hell-bent on developing a basic trainer aircraft (BTA) that the force does not need.

The crucial FGFA project, which will see India spending $35 billion over the next two decades to acquire over 200 of the stealth "swing-role'' fighters, has run into turbulence with Russia jacking up costs, as was first reported by TOI earlier this month.

"HAL is shirking away from a strategic project like FGFA but wants to manufacture a BTA when IAF is already inducting Swiss Pilatus PC-7 trainers. IAF simply cannot have two BTA to train rookie pilots, with duplication in spares, maintenance, infrastructure etc," said a source.

HAL has a dismal track record of huge time and cost overruns in projects ranging from the ongoing 14-year-delay in the Sitara intermediate jet trainer (IJT) to the light combat helicopter and light utility helicopter. "Yes, indigenisation is critical. But operational requirements cannot also be compromised," he said.

IAF wants MoD to scrap HAL's project to develop the BTA dubbed HTT-40, which is on the drawing board stage and will take several years to materialise and prove much costlier than the Pilatus trainers already being inducted.

IAF has sought approval for acquisition of 37 more Pilatus trainers immediately, and an additional 68 at a later stage to meet the overall requirement, to add to the 75 such planes ordered for Rs 2,896 crore last year. Citing all these, Air Chief Marshal N A K Browne has written to defence minister A K Antony to ask for "foreclosure" of the HAL project, say sources.

IAF on Tuesday stated the HTT-40 would prove to be "62% more expensive from 2017 onwards", when it will be ready, than the Pilatus. "Conversely, the first 75 Pilatus will be delivered by 2015. And if the option clause is exercised, 37 more Pilatus could be delivered by 2017," it said.

When the Swiss aircraft was ordered in May 2012 after a global selection process, it cost Rs 31 crore per plane. "Even at the 2011 price levels, each HTT-40 would cost Rs 43.59 crore, around 40% more than Pilatus," it added.

HAL, however, has its own set of figures to hold the HTT-40 will prove much cheaper than the Pilatus in the long run, apart from generating indigenous expertise. Amid the wrangling, MoD is showing no signs of resolving the dispute taking place right under its nose.

Link -http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/IAF-HAL-tiff-threatens-to-shatter-indigenization-quest/articleshow/21492297.cms
 
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I am with IAF why do we need to build trainer aircraft?
 
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Are they not both under the ministry of defense? Or some organization that controls both? Isn't there at least a joint chief of staff or something that directs all military affairs?

How can two branch of the military fight each other? Especially when it's not even different branches?

And perhaps the final thing isn't the manufacture suppose to make what the customer wants? This case being HAL
 
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The IAF is right on all counts. HAL are smoking stong stuff making such proposals.

HAL is developing the trainer using its own resources, its internal matter. They can sell that to any one they want. WTF IAf is so concerned about the trainer when it itself has stated that HAL will take a long time to develop it? they can go ahead and induct their faren maal with diluted standards.
 
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This could be seen coming. IAF as a customer has al rights to decide priorities and not HAL. with its dubious track record, IAF has laready been made to wait for critical hardware for too long in the past and if IAF has to carry out its madate of protecting the nations's skies, it cannot keep waiting.
HAL must introspect why its primary customer is so upset, i'm sure the''ll realize that probelm lies within.
 
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HAL is farting out just to hide it's incompetency. Why does HAL want to divulge in making Trainer aircraft... cozz they are easy to make unlike Tejas and FGFA... we need a proper change now, time is right... Con-Dress u listening???
 
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Wow...........HAL are complete pricks.
 
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NEW DELHI: India's quest to indigenize its military aviation sector has taken a sharp nosedive, with a bitter battle raging between the country's only aircraft manufacturer Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) and its primary customer IAF on projects ranging from trainer aircraft to the futuristic fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA).

The defence ministry, however, seems to be twiddling its thumbs in masterly inaction. IAF is aghast that HAL has proposed "surrendering 30% of its 50% work-share" in jointly developing the FGFA called Sukhoi T-50 or PAK-FA with Russia, while remains hell-bent on developing a basic trainer aircraft (BTA) that the force does not need.

The crucial FGFA project, which will see India spending $35 billion over the next two decades to acquire over 200 of the stealth "swing-role'' fighters, has run into turbulence with Russia jacking up costs, as was first reported by TOI earlier this month.

"HAL is shirking away from a strategic project like FGFA but wants to manufacture a BTA when IAF is already inducting Swiss Pilatus PC-7 trainers. IAF simply cannot have two BTA to train rookie pilots, with duplication in spares, maintenance, infrastructure etc," said a source.

HAL has a dismal track record of huge time and cost overruns in projects ranging from the ongoing 14-year-delay in the Sitara intermediate jet trainer (IJT) to the light combat helicopter and light utility helicopter. "Yes, indigenisation is critical. But operational requirements cannot also be compromised," he said.

IAF wants MoD to scrap HAL's project to develop the BTA dubbed HTT-40, which is on the drawing board stage and will take several years to materialise and prove much costlier than the Pilatus trainers already being inducted.

IAF has sought approval for acquisition of 37 more Pilatus trainers immediately, and an additional 68 at a later stage to meet the overall requirement, to add to the 75 such planes ordered for Rs 2,896 crore last year. Citing all these, Air Chief Marshal N A K Browne has written to defence minister A K Antony to ask for "foreclosure" of the HAL project, say sources.

IAF on Tuesday stated the HTT-40 would prove to be "62% more expensive from 2017 onwards", when it will be ready, than the Pilatus. "Conversely, the first 75 Pilatus will be delivered by 2015. And if the option clause is exercised, 37 more Pilatus could be delivered by 2017," it said.

When the Swiss aircraft was ordered in May 2012 after a global selection process, it cost Rs 31 crore per plane. "Even at the 2011 price levels, each HTT-40 would cost Rs 43.59 crore, around 40% more than Pilatus," it added.

HAL, however, has its own set of figures to hold the HTT-40 will prove much cheaper than the Pilatus in the long run, apart from generating indigenous expertise. Amid the wrangling, MoD is showing no signs of resolving the dispute taking place right under its nose.

Link -http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/IAF-HAL-tiff-threatens-to-shatter-indigenization-quest/articleshow/21492297.cms

This is not the only thing. But the story of MMRCA is of same class and I am sure that IAF is also looking in to buying IJT and USA offered JV too...

Similarly Scorpion story.... which seems that first 2 or 3 will not have AIP on board means it would be nothing...

Even if PN has the money then it would have produce at least 6-7 Agosta-90Bs instead of 3.
 
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HAL needs to develop. Now or later we have to develop it. Developing it will help HAL to make a platform.
And IAF is just bunch of idiots who want perfect world class product from home lab but will buy second level system from others.
Why Browne is jumping over pilatus ?
Why IAF downgraded the required critia for pilatus ?
 
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I think only way the situation will improve is to have healthy competition for each and every task like upgradation of migs/mirage/ MMRCA IJT or scorpene. There needs to be a composite and pragmatic long term roadmap from Saint/MOD with clarity of policies for private sector to invest. The current inaction/policies is not helping the country.
 
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HAL has dropped the ball BIG TIME on the following:

BTT (too long a wait)

Utility Helicopter ( same problem)

IJT (same probelm)

LCA (same problem)


When pilots die HAL does not have to take care of the families of dead pilots, the IAF does.

HAL needs to listen to the IAF.

The priorities should be:

IJT
LCA
Rafale
FGFA
 
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HAL needs to develop. Now or later we have to develop it. Developing it will help HAL to make a platform.
And IAF is just bunch of idiots who want perfect world class product from home lab but will buy second level system from others.
Why Browne is jumping over pilatus ?
Why IAF downgraded the required critia for pilatus ?



You don't know , Its all about Dalali..

Dalaal+1993.jpg
 
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The IAF is right on all counts. HAL are smoking stong stuff making such proposals.

Both organization are equally culprit. One side IAF put strict quality standards for HAL & other side loose parameters to help Pilatus to meet IAF requirements. This is not fare & its give clear signal that something is cooking. If they are sinciere then they put equal parameters but they discriminates HAL. I give full support to HAL in this move if IAF, IN or IA does not buy HAL's product then they can simply go world market. They develop BTA with their own funds & does not ask IAF or MOD for money then whats the problem of IAF. They buy foreign BTA then simply HAL markets its BTA to world market its not IAF business to tell them what to do.

HAL should realize with this incident that they does not have monopoly & they have to work hard to survive & grow. This incident helps HAL to make it competitive.

Remember same IAF use HAL's HPT-32 Deepak & AJT Kiran more than 4 decade. How the heck they survive so long in IAF's inventory if they are bad.
 
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