I played make-believe with the Pakistani military

[Mabs]

Let me put it this way. If anyone disagrees with her work, the best way is to counter it with work of comparable quality that presents the opposing point of view. Calling her a liar or paid agent will not not do anything to the veracity of her work and its influence. Her work on the Army may not be very flattering, but it is fairly robust by academic standards. Please note that I am not agreeing with what she says, but I can still respect the quality of her work academically.

Pls take a look at the video I posted and tell us what you think about it.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Let me put it this way. If anyone disagrees with her work, the best way is to counter it with work of comparable quality that presents the opposing point of view. Calling her a liar or paid agent will not not do anything to the veracity of her work and its influence. Her work on the Army may not be very flattering, but it is fairly robust by academic standards. Please note that I am not agreeing with what she says, but I can still respect the quality of her work academically.

Well said. See my post #46.

Pls take a look at the video I posted and tell us what you about it.

Yaar I watched it.

And I cried. Literally. If you take away her frustrated style, she is correct on so many things when it comes to us, defending and protecting our motherland.

We have let Pakistan burn just to spite others. How cruel is that?

Believe me, we can be much more assertive in Afghanistan without using Talib-astards.
Believe me, we can be much more assertive with Bharatis and muck Fodi, without using the likes of Hafiz Saeed.


Yaar, we are huge and powerful nation. It is time we must not trade our peace with Lakhvis and other Maulanas.

We must not.

It makes us look like Sierra Leon, when we bow in front of Mullah Aziz.

Where is our self respect?

The one that Dr. Fair and every sane Pakistani wants us to have collectively.

 

[Mabs]

----- youtube.com/watch?v=-ah7oj5CmPo

Watched the video. Thanks.

Here are my comments:

1. If for a moment you take away the conspiracy oriented tone, she has made good points.
2. She says Pakistani English media may be telling one thing, but Urdu media is misleading us when it comes Taliban.
--- She is right
3. She says Pakistani nation is not serious about eliminating Taliban
--- She is right


So in essence, we should not dismiss her just because we do not like her tone.

We must be serious about tackling our problems and not simply blame them on India. So far I believe our masses want to eliminate major issues. So far I see that we are supporting army on grass roots level.

However most of our so called leaders are non-serious.

IK, Zardari, Altaf, and Mullahs are openly hostile against any efforts to cleanse our society. They are creating instability that will clearly hinder nay derail Gen. Rahil's efforts to bring normalcy to the country.

There are conspiracy theories against sitting gov of NS that he too does behind the scene things like "encouraging" Zardari to make anti-Army statements.

Our media is willing to do its black role of spreading anarchy in the country.

So if you view all this, how could we ever blame Dr. Fair for her assessment.

How?

Leaders might be inept but that wasn't the question, the question was the sentiment of the Pakistani nation which is to rid Pakistan of terrorism as you said yourself. To her, everything that Pak's done or will do is just smoke and mirrors. My issue is with her intellectual dishonesty and sweeping statements like the shelling on the LoC is 'always' a tactic to provide cover to the infiltrators by the PA, It is never anything else. How could she possibly know that for certain?

Second, right after the Peshawar attack, the whole nation knew who did it - the Taliban. Nobody said anything else, ISPR even did a briefing about the people involved and they were forthcoming about who was involved.

These are just one of many errors in her flawed analysis of the environment after the Peshawar attack. When someone is this much off the mark, you can't give them the benefit of doubt, you have to consider that they are deliberately pushing a certain agenda for reasons known only to them.

 

[VCheng]

Pls take a look at the video I posted and tell us what you about it.

Actually, it is hard to find fault with what she says in that video.

Well said. See my post #46.

I would agree, with these fewer words:

Actually, it is hard to find fault with what she says in that video.

 

[Mabs]

Well said. See my post #46.



Yaar I watched it.

And I cried. Literally. If you take away her frustrated style, she is correct on so many things when it comes to us, defending and protecting our motherland.

We have let Pakistan burn just to spite others. How cruel is that?

Believe me, we can be much more assertive in Afghanistan without using Talib-astards.
Believe me, we can be much more assertive with Bharatis and muck Fodi, without using the likes of Hafiz Saeed.


Yaar, we are huge and powerful nation. It is time we must not trade our peace with Lakhvis and other Maulanas.

We must not.

It makes us look like Sierra Leon, when we bow in front of Mullah Aziz.

Where is our self respect?

The one that Dr. Fair and every sane Pakistani wants us to have collectively.

I'm not saying that we are saints, God knows we have our share of mistakes. My issue with her is that according to her, Pak's the only devil and everyone around her are angels. Did she for a second mention that the creation of Taliban was a joint venture between the ISI and the CIA?

We have multitude of probs but does that take away from the fact that Pak has hostile neighbors whose hands are equally bloody? Absolutely not. She makes it seems like every issue in the world somehow has something to do with Pakistan. I don't think for a second that Ms. Fair has Pakistan's best interest at heart.

 

[FaujHistorian]

1. ---- the question was the sentiment of the Pakistani nation which is to rid Pakistan of terrorism as you said yourself.
2. ----To her, everything that Pak's done or will do is just smoke and mirrors.
3. --- My issue is with her intellectual dishonesty and sweeping statements like the shelling on the LoC is 'always' a tactic to provide cover to the infiltrators by the PA., It is never anything else. How could she possibly know that for certain?

4. --- Second, right after the Peshawar attack, the whole nation knew who did it - the Taliban. Nobody said anything else, ISPR even did a briefing about the people involved and they were forthcoming about who was involved.

Bhai Jaan,

you are awesome!

I fully agree here. your points #1, #3, and #4 are 100000% correct.

The only issue I have is with #2. This is where she is correct. Because she is not talking about massess, but the actions of our leaders.

Hope you understand that I am not against your post in general. But one specific point.

Now I'll give credit to you even on #2 based on "future" assessment.

Why? I beleive that our massess have had it. If they don't get confused by our politicians like Zardari and IK, and Altaf.

Then our leaders too are being forced to change their tune when it comes to supporting army's actions against corruption and Jehadism.

May Allah help us succeed in bring peace and prosperity (by getting rid of Jihadists) to the country AND to the region.

Ameen.

I'm not saying that we are saints, God knows we have our share of mistakes. My issue with her is that according to her, Pak's the only problem and everyone around her are angels. Did she for s second mention that the creation of Taliban was a joint venture between the ISI and the CIA?

We have multitude of probs but does that take away from the fact that Pak has hostile neighbors whose hands are equally bloody? Absolutely not. She makes it seems like every issue in the world somehow has something to do with Pakistan. I don't think for a second that Ms. fair has Pakistan's best interest at heart.

Well said.

 

[Mabs]

Actually, it is hard to find fault with what she says in that video.



I would agree, with these fewer words:

Pls elaborate if you may.

 

[OrionHunter]

Fighting to the End: The Pakistan Army’s Way of War. What an amazing book! She hits the nail on the head! And with this she has pissed of a whole bunch of Pakistanis! Naturally!

Most who are ranting and raving out here vilifying the author and her book, haven't even read it!! Yet they pass judgement!!

By the way, how many have read the book? There are a dozen other similar books too, a couple by Pakistani authors themselves who have said what Christine Fair has described in her book. Are all of them just spouting nonsense? Probably. But there's no smoke without fire.

Ok, so let's call it fiction. But it makes for a good read anyways!

Damn wasted my 10 minutes reading this stupid fu*king shit of an article.

I know! Truth hurts, and how!

 

[VCheng]

Pls elaborate if you may.

Please see below:

Leaders might be inept but that wasn't the question, the question was the sentiment of the Pakistani nation which is to rid Pakistan of terrorism as you said yourself. To her, everything that Pak's done or will do is just smoke and mirrors. My issue is with her intellectual dishonesty and sweeping statements like the shelling on the LoC is 'always' a tactic to provide cover to the infiltrators by the PA, It is never anything else. How could she possibly know that for certain?

Second, right after the Peshawar attack, the whole nation knew who did it - the Taliban. Nobody said anything else, ISPR even did a briefing about the people involved and they were forthcoming about who was involved.

These are just one of many errors in her flawed analysis of the environment after the Peshawar attack. When someone is this much off the mark, you can't give them the benefit of doubt, you have to consider that they are deliberately pushing a certain agenda for reasons known only to them.

It is up to the leaders to rid Pakistan of terrorism, not the people. They are just fodder, as the casualty figures show. She is not wrong in saying that everything that Pakistan's inept leaders have done is just smoke and mirrors, The one exception might be ZeA, but its full impact remains to be seen given that it is not over yet. As far as her statement on shelling across the LoC is concerned, it is correct to note the association with infiltration. How could she possibly know that for certain might be due to where she is and what sources she has access to, so I would not dismiss her assessment that easily.

The APS attack was horrible, but the reaction shows that not much has actually changed on the ground. The Army used that as leverage to get for itself the right to establish military courts, and that has only compounded the tussle between various organs of state without much to show for it.

Having said all that, It is clear that ZeA has indeed improved the security situation significantly. How enduring these improvements might be will be seen in the weeks and months ahead. I wouldn't declare victory just yet.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Fighting to the End: The Pakistan Army’s Way of War. What an amazing book! She hits the nail on the head! And with this she has pissed of a whole bunch of Pakistanis! Naturally!

Most who are ranting and raving out here vilifying the author and her book, haven't even read it!! Yet they pass judgement!!

By the way, how many have read the book? There are a dozen other similar books too, a couple by Pakistani authors themselves who have said what Christine Fair has described in her book. Are all of them just spouting nonsense? Probably. But there's no smoke without fire.

Ok, so let's call it fiction. But it makes for a good read anyways!


I know! Truth hurts, and how!

Every theory, every thesis, every dissertation in the world has underlying assumptions. If such assumptions are myopic, one-sided, emotional, then the theory falls flat on its face.


Dr. Fiar though respectable academic has fallen into the trap of so many Pakistani academics who look at Pak army with the same view as they would look at armies in the Middle East, Africa, and Latin America.

So before we lap up her theories hook line and sinker, we must figure out what the underlying assumptions are.

OK?

So what do you think are the underlying assumptions of her thesis?

Thank you.


p.s. Thanks for listing her book. For those who do not have time to read the book, here is the youtube link of book review.

----- youtube.com/watch?v=sjnrETPDuls

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Here is the problem: what leads you to believe that the context provided by Dr. Fair is "demeaning"?

I provided examples and explanations of why and where in my previous posts. Other posters have provided links to video interviews (such as the interview after the APS school attack) where her irrational hatred of Pakistan is Crystal clear.

Her frequent use of Punjabi and Urdu expletives against Pakistan and Pakistanis on Twitter and various blogs further reduce any possible semblance of objectivity her work (on Pakistan related issues) might carry.

 

[FaujHistorian]

I provided examples and explanations of why and where in my previous posts. Other posters have provided links to video interviews (such as the interview after the APS school attack) where her irrational hatred of Pakistan is Crystal clear.

Her frequent use of Punjabi and Urdu expletives against Pakistan and Pakistanis on Twitter and various blogs further reduce any possible semblance of objectivity her work (on Pakistan related issues) might carry.

Good points.

 

[third eye]

Interesting...

 

[VCheng]

I provided examples and explanations of why and where in my previous posts. Other posters have provided links to video interviews (such as the interview after the APS school attack) where her irrational hatred of Pakistan is Crystal clear.

Her frequent use of Punjabi and Urdu expletives against Pakistan and Pakistanis on Twitter and various blogs further reduce any possible semblance of objectivity her work (on Pakistan related issues) might carry.

As I said before, you and many Pakistanis might think that she is not objective, but that is not her audience. She provides input to US policies, and hence it is important to study her work with a critical and open mind, because she is regarded as being an expert in matters related to South Asia, like it or not in her country. As an academician, she cannot carry any irrational hatred, of that I am quite sure.

In case anyone is interested, Chiristine Fair just went viral in India

She can't sing, but she certainly has balls.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

As I said before, you and many Pakistanis might think that she is not objective, but that is not her audience. She provides input to US policies, and hence it is important to study her work with a critical and open mind, because she is regarded as being an expert in matters related to South Asia, like it or not in her country. As an academician, she cannot carry any irrational hatred, of that I am quite sure.

If an academic cannot be honest and cannot provide honest and accurate input for US policy makers, then I'm not sure she deserves the title of 'academic'. and it is important to highlight the inaccuracies and distortions in her work, as has been done here, for precisely the reason that her input makes its way to US policy makers.

Of course she has been ranting and raving about how US policy makers are not implementing her distorted input so perhaps even they have some semblance of understanding about how she's gone of the deep end when it comes to Pakistan.