I, Maha Sapta Sindhu

[Joe Shearer]

Well..never mind. i wouldn't wanna play with your feelings just because of my theory without any evidence. : )

No, that's all right, you have a right to ask.

There are direct sources and there are indirect sources for corroboration of this statement.

As far as direct sources, it is in the parliamentary record already that all R&W operations were withdrawn or stopped; it is also on record that no further operations have been sanctioned.

How valuable is this? Very valuable; R&W does not operate in a semi-independent manner, it is under the direct supervision of a very high-level bureau itself, and there are no intermediaries to give it a different mission within a mission. Once these orders go out, budgets - even secret budgets - are set accordingly. There is obviously little or no scope for transferring tightly-controlled funds out of a given operation into another which does not officially exist, without a great deal of damage being done to the first, and showing up on scrutiny (there is no audit for such expenditure, only senior level, parallel body scrutiny).

Other direct sources cannot be placed on record and I am deliberately avoiding making any statements which depend wholly on such evidence.

Indirect sources abound: the inventory of officers assigned and their present assignments, within and without the country (the vast bulk of officers is from one service and one only); the increasing dependence on aerial reconnaissance and survey; the increasing dependence on electronic surveillance.

Over the last five years, leads to MHA have been more than in the very high nineties as a percentage from electronic surveillance. The balance has been from disaffected or defecting individuals, mostly individuals in some trouble of their own.

One last and very major source of information for possible enemy activity in specified areas within India is from interrogation of criminals.

An explanation may be useful here; it is seemingly the policy of the present government that the primary purpose of intelligence and covert operations is the securing of Indian citizens and urban centres, strategic locations and defence establishments from external terrorist or intelligence operations. I have no proof of this, but it is my surmise, unlike other information presented.

There is considerable concern about the instructions and the mandate, and other sections of opinion abound, both within the government and in political circles without. Political pressure, in particular, is reported to be very, very intense at the moment. While this pressure has been reported by insiders, there is no way of gauging the nature and the extent of this, from outside.

As of now, this is the writ that prevails, to the extent that an informed outsider can track it. And it is due to these reasons that I have so confidently asserted what I have, within the very, very specific scope of what I have defined and asserted.

 

[MadDog]

My friend....dont be emotional on this...RAW wont be telling u when it does something..i agree u r a patriotic indian citizen...but u r a normal citizen...who doesn't know what raw is doing.

 

[Joe Shearer]

My friend....dont be emotional on this...RAW wont be telling u when it does something..i agree u r a patriotic indian citizen...but u r a normal citizen...who doesn't know what raw is doing.

Several points:

1. I am being extremely rational and calm about this.
2. Your point about the agency not informing a normal citizen is known among chess-players as a fork. As a normal citizen, I cannot possibly know what they are doing; if I know more than the bare outlines, i cannot be a normal citizen, and so on and so forth.
3. Please be sure that whatever I have cited and will cite will be restricted to whatever a normal citizen might be expected to know. Or rather, an abnormal citizen with a pronounced interest in military and defence matters might be expected to know (there is a difference).
4. Please also be sure that the conditions set for knowing about R&W activities fairly elegantly eliminate any possibility of any kind of reasonable knowledge that they do have a nefarious role in Pakistan.
5. I am prepared, if you like, to explain in a short note, based on published sources, why you should take my analysis seriously and give up your own mistaken one.

And while we do not know each well enough to call ourselves friends, I acknowledge the gesture and reciprocate it in the spirit of Christmas.

Please let me know about point 5.

 

[indushek]

Several points:

1. I am being extremely rational and calm about this.
2. Your point about the agency not informing a normal citizen is known among chess-players as a fork. As a normal citizen, I cannot possibly know what they are doing; if I know more than the bare outlines, i cannot be a normal citizen, and so on and so forth.
3. Please be sure that whatever I have cited and will cite will be restricted to whatever a normal citizen might be expected to know. Or rather, an abnormal citizen with a pronounced interest in military and defence matters might be expected to know (there is a difference).
4. Please also be sure that the conditions set for knowing about R&W activities fairly elegantly eliminate any possibility of any kind of reasonable knowledge that they do have a nefarious role in Pakistan.
5. I am prepared, if you like, to explain in a short note, based on published sources, why you should take my analysis seriously and give up your own mistaken one.

And while we do not know each well enough to call ourselves friends, I acknowledge the gesture and reciprocate it in the spirit of Christmas.

Please let me know about point 5.

I thought for the first two pages that somebody had hijacked ur account. However after following all the excruciating pages i have to believe that it is really you.

I am surprised that you took so much pain for a meaningless thread. While the message u wanted to expound was pasted on a billboard in a post in the previous page i think i am sorry to say that it is a waste as it will fall on deaf years.

Two of the young and "bright" minds i discovered in this thread were particularly so vociferous that they went to personal name calling to incite a reaction from you which obviously u haven't responded to ofcourse. However the point is that if a 12 to 16 years are so ingrained in such thoughts there is hardly anything to be achieved in exerting urself so much.

I still am surprised to see you so indulged in this thread or waste.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I thought for the first two pages that somebody had hijacked ur account. However after following all the excruciating pages i have to believe that it is really you.

I am surprised that you took so much pain for a meaningless thread. While the message u wanted to expound was pasted on a billboard in a post in the previous page i think i am sorry to say that it is a waste as it will fall on deaf years.

Two of the young and "bright" minds i discovered in this thread were particularly so vociferous that they went to personal name calling to incite a reaction from you which obviously u haven't responded to ofcourse. However the point is that if a 12 to 16 years are so ingrained in such thoughts there is hardly anything to be achieved in exerting urself so much.

I still am surprised to see you so indulged in this thread or waste.

It was excruciating to read the sort of venom and animosity that was being vented, and even more frustrating to read the RSS responses which came flying back.

How long is this nonsense to continue?

I know that there is no solution in taking a personal stand against it, but something snapped a few messages back. Maybe I need to go back to PTH for some much-needed therapy, before returning to the vitriolic lack of content and assumption of illwill in this forum.

 

[SQ8]

It was excruciating to read the sort of venom and animosity that was being vented, and even more frustrating to read the RSS responses which came flying back.

How long is this nonsense to continue?

I know that there is no solution in taking a personal stand against it, but something snapped a few messages back. Maybe I need to go back to PTH for some much-needed therapy, before returning to the vitriolic lack of content and assumption of illwill in this forum.

Well.. compared to an Indian run forum I visited.. this is still mundane.
The illwill will stay.. as long as the establishment on both sides play their cards.
The only solution is people to people.. face to face.. contact..
You cannot expect years and years of incorrect or incomplete history
to be erased here.. as I cannot expect years and years of suspicion to be erased in India.

The approach taken by our leaders and our NGO's is completely opposite.. one's slogan is "let bygones be bygones".. the others "atoot ang" and "freedom".

One nation's military is less involved with the government.... but in its expansion is still concentrating on its western borders..
The other's lives for the "coming" fight with yours.. otherwise it would have little excuse to demand the large budgetary share..and the luxuries its senior staff enjoy.

So..
Where..in this chaos.. does the "understand and resolve, Accept and forgive(NOT forget)".. person go?? This voice.. is rarely heard..in the screams of the others... he/she rarely utters something.. or mumbles it out when it comes.

Maha Sapta Sindhu.. is probably part of a coal reserve by now..
And his polarized descendants..and those with alien dna in this divided land... are too busy fighting over a dead man's dna.

 

[indushek]

It was excruciating to read the sort of venom and animosity that was being vented, and even more frustrating to read the RSS responses which came flying back.

How long is this nonsense to continue?

I know that there is no solution in taking a personal stand against it, but something snapped a few messages back. Maybe I need to go back to PTH for some much-needed therapy, before returning to the vitriolic lack of content and assumption of illwill in this forum.

I sir found the cure for such (not) so bright posts long ago and i think i shared it with u some time back.

Thats exactly what happened to me some three weeks back when the barrage of Chinese Indian war on PDF with necessary spices from third front happened. The level of hatred just leaves a nauseating feeling in ones senses as a whole. Little do people realize that words on a single post (among many) in a single thread (among many) in a forum (among many) wouldn't change or alter the course of events, well thats taking it too far .

Anyway as i told i am spending lesser time and keep away from these threads meant to flame and i am the happier no doubt. I am not that experienced to give suggestions to some one like u but better keep away from these kind of threads. They serve no purpose but to satiate the egos of some inconsequential fellers. The disappointing thing is that i respect Gunner as he has never posted crap as far as i know. May be he wanted to post it thinking it to be new thing or i don't know. Too much indecision on my part i agree.

So long.

 

[Rafi]

About a million people died during independence, they were from all sides and communities, that sort of historical memory - will fuel enmity for generations.

 

[indushek]

Well.. compared to an Indian run forum I visited.. this is still mundane.
The illwill will stay.. as long as the establishment on both sides play their cards.
The only solution is people to people.. face to face.. contact..
You cannot expect years and years of incorrect or incomplete history
to be erased here.. as I cannot expect years and years of suspicion to be erased in India.

The approach taken by our leaders and our NGO's is completely opposite.. one's slogan is "let bygones be bygones".. the others "atoot ang" and "freedom".

One nation's military is less involved with the government.... but in its expansion is still concentrating on its western borders..
The other's lives for the "coming" fight with yours.. otherwise it would have little excuse to demand the large budgetary share..and the luxuries its senior staff enjoy.

So..
Where..in this chaos.. does the "understand and resolve, Accept and forgive(NOT forget)".. person go?? This voice.. is rarely heard..in the screams of the others... he/she rarely utters something.. or mumbles it out when it comes.

Maha Sapta Sindhu.. is probably part of a coal reserve by now..
And his polarized descendants..and those with alien dna in this divided land... are too busy fighting over a dead man's dna.

Santro i perfectly respect ur integrity in keeping up with the forum's rules. While i agree on all your points, i would like to talk specifically on the bold part.

Every Indian member knows this is not an Indian forum, does two wrongs make it right?? or should we be constantly reminded that this is a foreign forum.

PDF strives to make it clear that it is different from the other Indian forums and we know that and don't deny that. For ur kind information this is the forum i have joined first and though i have enlisted myself on an other Indian forum i have posted there may be one or two posts till date.

So why do people constantly harp on this point every time. Is this a last resort to explain the hatred?? Nobody here is in the delusion that we are friends, as u i also want to know the opinion of u guys in general and read about some defence related stuff, thats it.

 

[UnitedPak]

Santro i perfectly respect ur integrity in keeping up with the forum's rules. While i agree on all your points, i would like to talk specifically on the bold part.

Every Indian member knows this is not an Indian forum, does two wrongs make it right?? or should we be constantly reminded that this is a foreign forum.

PDF strives to make it clear that it is different from the other Indian forums and we know that and don't deny that. For ur kind information this is the forum i have joined first and though i have enlisted myself on an other Indian forum i have posted there may be one or two posts till date.

So why do people constantly harp on this point every time. Is this a last resort to explain the hatred?? Nobody here is in the delusion that we are friends, as u i also want to know the opinion of u guys in general and read about some defence related stuff, thats it.

The point is that no matter how moderate Indian members try to appear, they tend to stick together and act in gangs. Jon might disagree with the "RSS responses" but not once did he respond to such posts as he responds to Pakistani posts.
There seems to be a similar reaction by Indians in every history topic. Extreme frustration to convince Pakistanis they are not natives but foreign invaders with a foreign ideology who stole the region from the original Indians. This is the message that is put across by denying Pakistanis any connection to their past and its a plain insult.

You might appreciate the forum for its tolerance but I cant help notice the tolerance tends to be one sided. The single Indian member on this forum with a different view point is verbally attacked at every opportunity. In the above post you wrote:

"I sir found the cure for such (not) so bright posts long ago and i think i shared it with u some time back. ".

Explain how this post had any good intentions?
Were you simply seeking opinions of Pakistanis?
Promoting tolerance and friendship?
Promoting genuine discussion?

Or just plain old gang trolling.

This is exactly the reason for a reminder that this is a Pakistani forum and not BR.

 

[amigo]

The point is that no matter how moderate Indian members try to appear, they tend to stick together and act in gangs. Jon might disagree with the "RSS responses" but not once did he respond to such posts as he responds to Pakistani posts.
There seems to be a similar reaction by Indians in every history topic. Extreme frustration to convince Pakistanis they are not natives but foreign invaders with a foreign ideology who stole the region from the original Indians. This is the message that is put across by denying Pakistanis any connection to their past and its a plain insult.

it's a bit of confusion for me on this part. u are saying we share many in common(which i also agree). but on this very forum i saw many pakistani members denying this. they say we have nothing in common, we are very two diff. cultures(i think those ppl. live on some other planet.)

borders can change few things not all.

 

[Rafi]

I think it is up to Pakistanis how they define themselves, they are rightly proud of their forefathers and also proud of their Muslim brethren who came as warriors and great kings.

The same way a French man can be proud of Vercingetorix and also be proud of Roman Gaul, or the English can be proud of Boudica and also Roman Britain - which is responsible for much of the law and way of life.

 

[indushek]

The point is that no matter how moderate Indian members try to appear, they tend to stick together and act in gangs. Jon might disagree with the "RSS responses" but not once did he respond to such posts as he responds to Pakistani posts.
There seems to be a similar reaction by Indians in every history topic. Extreme frustration to convince Pakistanis they are not natives but foreign invaders with a foreign ideology who stole the region from the original Indians. This is the message that is put across by denying Pakistanis any connection to their past and its a plain insult.

You might appreciate the forum for its tolerance but I cant help notice the tolerance tends to be one sided. The single Indian member on this forum with a different view point is verbally attacked at every opportunity. In the above post you wrote:

"I sir found the cure for such (not) so bright posts long ago and i think i shared it with u some time back. ".

Explain how this post had any good intentions?
Were you simply seeking opinions of Pakistanis?
Promoting tolerance and friendship?
Promoting genuine discussion?

Or just plain old gang trolling.

This is exactly the reason for a reminder that this is a Pakistani forum and not BR.

If u could see the replies of Joe they were getting more and more verbal and pronouncing in his replies. If u have see him before u would know that he generally keeps away from such sensitive topics. The reason i spoke particularly of the cure to "intelligent posts" was to let him pacify himself. As a fellow Indian i am required to that and i have done that.

Regarding ur questions on my intentions can u please reply to my one question?? how many times did u intervene when either Pakistani or Chinese posters talk about evil , conniving treacherous hindoo baniyas to be crushed or to be nuked once or twice or other kinds of racist remarks??

You just posted selectively my words but not the rest of the sentence where i said i stay away from such topics. Is it not best in the interest of harmony not to reply to such topics where it leads to only further flaming? Or do u think i am a Saint to laugh when my country and its people get insulted. I am as patriotic as you are.

Don't tell me that i am the one who is starting the flame war, its already been ignited. On topic what i feel is what i have told Joe and that is, that u will believe what u want and i will believe what i want. End of discussion for me on topic, however if u think more clarification on my posts please ask and i will reply aptly.

 

[Bang Galore]

It was excruciating to read the sort of venom and animosity that was being vented, and even more frustrating to read the RSS responses which came flying back.

How long is this nonsense to continue?

I know that there is no solution in taking a personal stand against it, but something snapped a few messages back. Maybe I need to go back to PTH for some much-needed therapy, before returning to the vitriolic lack of content and assumption of illwill in this forum.

A quote from the Buddha would be apt here. "Holding on to anger is a bit like holding a hot piece of coal in your hand with the intention of hurling it at someone else. The one person guaranteed to get burnt is you"

 

[SQ8]

Santro i perfectly respect ur integrity in keeping up with the forum's rules. While i agree on all your points, i would like to talk specifically on the bold part.

Every Indian member knows this is not an Indian forum, does two wrongs make it right?? or should we be constantly reminded that this is a foreign forum.

PDF strives to make it clear that it is different from the other Indian forums and we know that and don't deny that. For ur kind information this is the forum i have joined first and though i have enlisted myself on an other Indian forum i have posted there may be one or two posts till date.

So why do people constantly harp on this point every time. Is this a last resort to explain the hatred?? Nobody here is in the delusion that we are friends, as u i also want to know the opinion of u guys in general and read about some defence related stuff, thats it.

Should the hatred be explained??
Does it.. after all these years.. all those posts..need explanation.
Look at all the Pakistani members..
look at all the Indian members..
70% of each will display a negative attitude from the word go.

I too came to this forum with a positive approach about the other side.After all.. I have visited India twice..and apart from the general spirited debate.. left with positive views.
yet.. after spending the time here.. looking at the way some Indian member's present their arguments.. without granting even an inch of valid ground.. I too feel the hatred.
for one thing.. I can literally count on my fingers the number of Indian's here who have ever for once appreciated our military.. or shown respect for it.. if not for the leaders..for the troops.
Our achievements are treated with cynical and sarcastic comments..
called cheats.. etc...even religion is not spared... online "sources" are defended with such ferocity...that it astounds me.

Now the other side of the coin..
Pakistani members keep a knee jerk policy as well, they look at an Indian.. and will first take his question and pass comments on it without even reading what it is.. and if they dont know about it..or cannot answer it.. dont ignore it for someone who can answer it.
They too will resort to low level jabs at any failure or a chink in the armor of the India's image..without considering the factors behind it.
Giving the lame excuse.. "they would do the same"..
If you feel a certain membership group likes to roll in the mud.. must you insist on doing the same??
Often responses by Pakistani members on Indian posts based on debunking or disagreeing logically.. citing the underlined reason as the excuse.
and more often than not.. of you cannot come up with an article to counter something by wall street.. even if you are sure of what is right.. then keep quiet.. continue your discussion with the others.
Instead of going on the defensive like a cornered tiger..

Coming to why PDF is different..
Look at the way our mods, administration..give other members liberty..
show me another forum where a member of the opposing side can rant like a 3 year old about something that is established factually and still be only suspended or given a warning.
Where the opposing force has its own section .. which has a post count almost equal to the Pakistani section...
Where a Pakistani member rarely posts.. and if he utters something negative he/she is pounced upon like a bunch of jackals and scathing remarks passed about his "lack of sources"..or knowledge.
Yet when some Indian members regularly post demeaning remarks about our nation,its achievements and its military..yet continue to be allowed to post.
Again.. I can count on my fingers the number of Indian members here who utter a positive word about Us regularly..or at least are willing to accept that a conclusion cannot be made without knowing the whole picture...
Others are usually interested in making sure that whatever that is being discussed.. is either better in India.. or is useless for us.
There are Pakistani members that are as guilty of the above as Indians.. and Chinese ones...and others..
BUT they all post.. they too get banned.. and suspended when they drift into nonsense.

Even us TT's get a warning if we lose our cool with a member..for whatever reason... we too can be suspended.

Nothing is perfect..
But compared to what Ive seen out there.. Defence.pk is better than most.




Now..
that the wandering out of topic is complete..
I was having a discussion with a professor from QAU..
The same question of "what is the Pakistani identity" came up..
The crux of his conclusion was that an embrace of the cultural roots is important.. and that the difference between the Indian's and US.. was the embodiment of the Islamic identity into our lives...both culturally and genetically.. is what has now given us an Identity.. but its not with Islamization..but embracing our diversity...yet celebrating it with the spirit of Islam..if I phrased this all correctly.