Hunt For 6th Generation Fighter Begins Today

[amalakas]

These delays are not because there are major problems. What happens is this... the cycle for a new, specific, individual technology to become molded into an operational form (a new black box), THEN integrated into a system like the F-35, can be lengthy.

In WW2, you simply added whatever item you wanted to an airframe. Today, everything in a jet is integrated, and a new capability can't simply be bolted on.

Let's say DOD scientists say "We have this really cool device that can spoof an IRST system." The word makes its way up to those in power. They investigate. "We MUST have this on the F-35!!" The F-35 engineers now need to help develop, install, and test the device or capability into an airframe that is highly integrated, with all components communicating with each other. The new system affects all the other systems on the software bus. Compatibilities must be checked. While this is going on, ANOTHER "must have" capability is developed. The procedure repeats. Budgets get rehashed and trashed.

But what comes out at the other end is a superior product. If the PAK-FA is rushed, it will not reach its potential.

The same thing happened to the F-22. Expected IOC was pushed back, and back. If it was forced, and deployed in 1996, it would be substandard to what we have today.

In this day and age, systems are designed in a highly modular way.
it doesn't matter how new or how old a particular added subsystem/functionality is, its input and its output to the system is known. The "software bus" is in actual fact a hardware/software communications channel, with known protocols, timings, sychronicities and controllers. All subsystems communicate in a certain way, known and established, when they are developed is irrelevant as long as the main structure is solid. To give you an example, it doesn't matter when you connect a very powerful PC to the network, what matters is that the network is there, the comms protocols are the same for all computers in the network.

I believe it is not integration problems that are holding back the F35.
I think it is the actual plane not meeting its original design specifications in a number of areas.

 

[Chogy]

In this day and age, systems are designed in a highly modular way.

I respect your opinion, but trust me, the software bus concept is not as bulletproof as you are portraying. Its not like a daisy-chain of RS-485 devices. What I mentioned previously is valid. Not only new technologies added, but also standardized and proven technologies causing hiccups once they are all tied together.

The complexities of modern aircraft and systems are immense.

I personally dislike the process as it stands. You eventually reach a point where you have to say "It's ready." It's like a painter spending weeks dabbing at a finished portrait. Put the brush down and go with what you have.

 

[FSLN]

suggesting that China might catch up soon.

USA is going to have to rely more on the failed F-35.

A good plane yes, but already outdated.

China and Russia are decades behind the so called outdated U.S.A 5th generation planes...


can any of you fools show me a Chinese F-117 counterpart?...

 

[amalakas]

I respect your opinion, but trust me, the software bus concept is not as bulletproof as you are portraying. Its not like a daisy-chain of RS-485 devices. What I mentioned previously is valid. Not only new technologies added, but also standardized and proven technologies causing hiccups once they are all tied together.

The complexities of modern aircraft and systems are immense.

I personally dislike the process as it stands. You eventually reach a point where you have to say "It's ready." It's like a painter spending weeks dabbing at a finished portrait. Put the brush down and go with what you have.

I don't doubt it, I just don't think that is the main reason.
I believe it is the new manufacturing techniques that LM wanted to push forward with the F35 that make the delays a problem. The highly integrated cockpit, is potentially another issue, with a successful sensor fusion perhaps not coming in smoothly.
But I still think it is manufacturing reasons behind the delay.

More specificaly, I have the suspicion the plane is plagued with quality issues in the structural elements. Standards inconsistencies between the thousands of sub-contractors, that lead to an inconsistent overall qualityvariation between the planes.
Software issues are natural and will cause headaches anyway,
I also think the plane is likely to have not got yet a consistent RAM skin. I have the suspicion based on what I heard in the LM presentations that the skin is not yet performing the way it was meant, if not in stealth characteristics potentially in maintenance.
LM was quite hesitant in committing to a number of hours per required maintenance for the RAM skin. also I do believe there is an issue with the engine performance of the plane.

 

[nightcrawler]

I also think the plane is likely to have not got yet a consistent RAM skin. I have the suspicion based on what I heard in the LM presentations that the skin is not yet performing the way it was meant, if not in stealth characteristics potentially in maintenance.
LM was quite hesitant in committing to a number of hours per required maintenance for the RAM skin.

I read that too!! But giv them time......

 

[Chogy]

Probably many items are causing delays.

The P-80 (first successful U.S. jet fighter) was built from a napkin sketch in 145 days. That era is certainly long gone. Procurement cycles seem freakishly long these days, but it is not from lack of effort, nor does it mean that the finished product will be sub-standard.

 

[Dragon Emperor]

OK. So for does of you think that the F-35 is not a failure, then give me a proof that the F-35 is as good as F-22. If not, then it's useless, because only F-22 is miles above any 4th gen fighter. F-35 on the other hand is only a tiny bit higher that most 4th gen fighters(can be countered easily by numbers for example 3 Su-27s outgunning 1 F-35), but not as overwhelmingly superior like F-22.

 

[Chogy]

^^ Ridiculous. It's impossible to prove anything, because they are not operational. And we've already had a thread describing how much of the systems on these aircraft are black - dark secrets that will never be published.

The F-35 will be the replacement for the F-16. It will supplement the F-22. It's not supposed to be better.

You've fallen into the trap that any newer jet has to be better than anything previous. It doesn't work that way. The A-10 was built after the F-15. Doesn't make it better, just differing missions.