How Turkey got LUCKY with the F-35?

[Pax Ottomana]

That's right. Intercepting slow-moving, low-flying propeller planes is pretty much the extent of F-35s capabilities. Send it to do the job that a WW2-era Spitfire could've done. Easy shit like this is perfect for the flying lemon F-35.

 

[bsruzm]

Turkey is lucky according to Beyazıt Karataş.

 

[Oublious]

Old generation fighter pilot of Tuaf don't want the F35, from the begin they didn't like it. People should give a look and analyze ther thoughts.

 

[Indos]

but we need a new fighter aircraft.. ucav even with air to air weapons wont do the job in the near future and tfx is another story.. I think we should have joined the kfx program this kfx is likly to be sucessfull (i forgot why we did not want it..)

Erdogan doesnt want to join KFX program because he wants equal stake with South Korea while South Korea only wants to give both Turkey and Indonesia 20 % stake each. I think Erdogan is too ambitious and should have accepted the Korean offer.

 

[ÇölKaplanı]

Erdogan doesnt want to join KFX program because he wants equal stake with South Korea while South Korea only wants to give both Turkey and Indonesia 20 % stake each. I think Erdogan is too ambitious and should have accepted the Korean offer.

Actually I should correct you brother. Whenever Turkey does something or decides to do something, the foreign media always thinks that the decision purely belongs to Erdogan, they think he's a dictator. I'm anti-AKP but even if he sometimes acts similar to a dictator, he's the president of a secular republic; and most of the foreign policy or decisions wouldn't change if someone else was the president. It's the exact situation in the KF-X too. Our airforce demanded different things than what the Koreans offered and they also wanted to be able to develop one instead of just investing. Don't forget that turkish military industry was started in the 70s and Erdogan has only a ten percent or so contribution on that; ever since the 70s, we wanted to make a Turkish fighter...

 

[Indos]

Actually I should correct you brother. Whenever Turkey does something or decides to do something, the foreign media always thinks that the decision purely belongs to Erdogan, they think he's a dictator. I'm anti-AKP but even if he sometimes acts similar to a dictator, he's the president of a secular republic; and most of the foreign policy or decisions wouldn't change if someone else was the president. It's the exact situation in the KF-X too.

OK brother. I respect your opinion about your country decision on KFX program. Although I also need to say that even though I voted for Jokowi two times, I dont agree with his administration decision to renegotiate with Korea in KFX/IFX program. And I think the decision is influenced highly by his own wisdom.

Our airforce demanded different things than what the Koreans offered and they also wanted to be able to develop one instead of just investing. Don't forget that turkish military industry was started in the 70s and Erdogan has only a ten percent or so contribution on that; ever since the 70s, we wanted to make a Turkish fighter...

Look brother, South Korea doesnt only offer for both of us to just invest on the project without any participation. I dont think we will accept the offer if the offer just like that. We will prefer to use the money (2 billion USD) for our own civilian aircraft project like N 245 and N270/R80 if that is the case.

The fact is that Indonesia participated with the fighter development since the start, the time where we made join research together starting in 2011. Although SK is a senior partner, Indonesia also contribute on the design. Max Take Of Weight of C 103 design for instant is made by Indonesian designers after winning argument with ADD Korea.

It is also why KFX is a two engine instead of single engine that is highly favored by KAI since it can bring the cost down. It was a hard decision and discuss quite long if you follow KFX development. Indonesian and ADD/Korean Air Force favor double engine while KAI and other Korean Agency prefer single engine. KFX then is decided to be double engine.

The basic design of KFX which is C 103 is made by ADD Korea and Indonesian (PT Dirgantara Indonesia/Bandung Institute of Techniology/Indonesian Airforce). The design then evolve into C 109 and it gets larger as well after KAI and Lockheed Martin join the project.

Indonesian sent small team consisted of 28 senior designers in the start (2011-December 2013) and the number then grows into 114 designers. You can check my thread KFX/IFX to confirm my statement which uses credible sources. There is also work package where the technology (inlight design) is only owned by Indonesia (said Head of the Ministry of Defense's Research and Development Agency Anne Kusmayati). I provide the link below on that claim.

And Indonesian Aerospace will also make the assembling and integration for KFX intended for Indonesian Air Force and also will make wings, boosters at the bottom of the wing and tail for all KFX/IFX planes.

So it is false to say that South Korea only offer just investment participation for both Turkey and Indonesia.

https://www.cnnindonesia.com/nasion...ur-ri-buatan-sendiri-mengangkasa-9-tahun-lagi

The research office in Korea

 

[Pax Ottomana]

Korea didn't agree to give Turkey a "full partnership" in the KF-X program, including full access to all source codes and the ability to develop and install our own avionics and indigenous weapons. Korea didn't agree to that, which sounded to us an awful lot like "parts production only" and it didn't justify the investment in our opinion. Simple as that.

Turkey is very interested in joint-projects with friendly and allied countries but we're only interested in equal and mutually beneficial partnerships, not schemes where Country A controls everything and uses Country B, C and D for cheap parts production and as export markets without any ToT. The world doesn't need any more "Americas".

 

[ÇölKaplanı]

OK brother. I respect your opinion about your country decision on KFX program. Although I also need to say that even though I voted for Jokowi two times, I dont agree with his administration decision to renegotiate with Korea in KFX/IFX program. And I think the decision is influenced highly by his own wisdom.

It's known that both Indonesia and Turkey are the most developed muslim nations in the aerospace, I used to wish that both of our countries developed a fighter with the help of BAE; but that wouldn't be realistic. I think you guys did the right decision for your own needs and invested in the right plane, it is for sure that the KF-X/IF-X will become a successful plane. I also wish we planned our TF-X with as the same way:

Everyone agrees that the TF-X/MMU won't become a true 5th gen. stealth plane without the F110GE engines. So, my proposal is, how about we use the TF-X as a Turkish F-15 with the external hardpoints until the new engine is ready?(Just like the KF-X) There's no chance of embargo, it will make the project much more reliable and we would fill our fighter gap. How about that?

But I do have a question. Why does the Turkish Aerospace sees Indonesia as a potential future customer of the TF-X? Do you guys plan to use the IF-X as a multirole fighter and need an air superiority fighter? It seems like you guys cancelled the Su-35 deal and will buy the F-16s instead, but is there a need for a 5th gen. air superiority fighter? If so, if you guys join the TF-X project, it would really be beneficial for both of our countries.

 

[Indos]

Korea didn't agree to give Turkey a "full partnership" in the KF-X program, including full access to all source codes and the ability to develop and install our own avionics and indigenous weapons. Korea didn't agree to that, which sounded to us an awful lot like "parts production only" and it didn't justify the investment in our opinion. Simple as that.

Well, I dont know if it was the case, but I think there are many rumors that was blown up by some people who actually dont know the real problem. I think you need to check the validity of the information that you bring on your post. It also happen in Indonesia where even a respected national newspaper can say something false about the project, something that I see is made by blind Jokowi follower who support what ever decision he made. Many Indonesian Youtube video about KFX are also made with misleading fact to back up government initiative to renegotiate the program. As some one who follow KFX/IFX program since South Korea offer the proposal in 2009 to Indonesia and read many news about it until now, I can really see which claim is false and which claim that is true.

Source Code and Development

I dont know detail of the agreement but I read somewhere that Indonesia can independently upgrade the aircraft. It is one of the thing that make Indonesia feel the program as worth it to pursuit. If not said by Indonesia head KFX program, it was said by our Aerospace Company CEO himself.

And I also read somewhere that Indonesia can develop the aircraft independently after the first block is finished. I think it is like how Airbus Defense can develop CN 235 into C 925 by himself and PT Dirgantara Indonesia develop CN 235 into N245 by himself. As we know, CN 235 is made by both CASA (that later join Airbus) and PT Dirgantara Indonesia (PTDI).

Turkey is very interested in joint-projects with friendly and allied countries but we're only interested in equal and mutually beneficial partnerships, not schemes where Country A controls everything and uses Country B, C and D for cheap parts production and as export markets without any ToT. The world doesn't need any more "Americas".

Well, something that is quite clear is that even though PTDI have designed several planes like CN 235 (together with CASA), N 250, N2130 (unfinished), and N 219, but all of them are transport aircraft. Even though our engineers in PTDI has said that if some one can design a transport aircraft it means hes/she can also design a fighter jet since all plane design use similar basic knowledge, but we have to agree that Indonesia hasnt got any experience yet in designing a fighter jet. While South Korea has designed KT 1 Wongbie and T 50 advance jet trainer with Lockheed Martin help. It means both parties are actually in quite similar capability in designing a plane.

So why Indonesia accept South Korea offer ?

We need to have a jet fighter project that can improve our designers capability while in the same time we understand that our financial capability is not enough to make us develop it alone. And since no Western countries with good capability in designing a jet fighter ever offer us to conduct a join program to build a fighter jet, we accept South Korea offer.

With relatively similar knowledge in designing it also means we are trully developing and researching the fighter together, not just following senior partner that maybe is in the case in joint STEALTH fighter program between Russia and India (SU 57) that make India disappointed and get out from it. It is also why we also bring our lawyers to secure our IP right during the first research period (technology development phase).

Of course Indonesia is not interested to join KFX program just as a part producer since we have already designed and produced airplane since 1954 (Sikumbang/COIN anti guerilla aircraft) and continues with the creation of PTDI in 1976 where we design and also produce many aircraft like CN 235/C 212/N250/N219/Airbus parts/Boeing parts /Helicopters and also F 16 wings in late 1980s until the beginning of 1990's.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LIPNUR_Sikumbang


Avionics

Actually Indonesia can use its own avionics for its KFX version and it is why we have program to produce many avionics for our IFX version (even though it is still a plan without serious government financial backing). If we are not allowed to do that and must accept what ever South Korea has decided with its KFX version, there will be no such program exist.

So actually we try to use KFX/IFX program as the basis to develop many important jet fighter components. It is a long term project/plan for us. Despite so, I believe we will still use KFX version for our IFX until the domestic component we are developing is approved by our military. We have companies like LEN Industry and InfoGlobal that can provide avionics component for our IFX version. InfoGlobal even has showcase its cockpit version for IFX in Indodefense event several years ago.

(PS: Indonesia is currently renegotiating the deal with South Korea so Indonesia future involvement on the program is still not known)

 

[Pax Ottomana]

Well, I dont know if it was the case, but I think there are many rumors that was blown up by some people who actually dont know the real problem. I think you need to check the validity of the information that you bring on your post. It also happen in Indonesia where even a respected national newspaper can say something false about the project, something that I see is made by blind Jokowi follower who support what ever decision he made. Many Indonesian Youtube video about KFX are also made with misleading fact to back up government initiative to renegotiate the program. As some one who follow KFX/IFX program since South Korea offer the proposal in 2009 to Indonesia and read many news about it until now, I can really see which claim is false and which claim that is true.

Source Code and Development

I dont know detail of the agreement but I read somewhere that Indonesia can independently upgrade the aircraft. It is one of the thing that make Indonesia feel the program as worth it to pursuit. If not said by Indonesia head KFX program, it was said by our Aerospace Company CEO himself.

And I also read somewhere that Indonesia can develop the aircraft independently after the first block is finished. I think it is like how Airbus Defense can develop CN 235 into C 925 by himself and PT Dirgantara Indonesia develop CN 235 into N245 by himself. As we know, CN 235 is made by both CASA (that later join Airbus) and PT Dirgantara Indonesia (PTDI).



Well, something that is quite clear is that even though PTDI have designed several planes like CN 235 (together with CASA), N 250, N2130 (unfinished), and N 219, but all of them are transport aircraft. Even though our engineers in PTDI has said that if some one can design a transport aircraft it means hes/she can also design a fighter jet since all plane design use similar basic knowledge, but we have to agree that Indonesia hasnt got any experience yet in designing a fighter jet. While South Korea has designed KT 1 Wongbie and T 50 advance jet trainer with Lockheed Martin help. It means both parties are actually in quite similar capability in designing a plane.

So why Indonesia accept South Korea offer ?

We need to have a jet fighter project that can improve our designers capability while in the same time we understand that our financial capability is not enough to make us develop it alone. And since no Western countries with good capability in designing a jet fighter ever offer us to conduct a join program to build a fighter jet, we accept South Korea offer.

With relatively similar knowledge in designing it also means we are trully developing and researching the fighter together, not just following senior partner that maybe is in the case in joint STEALTH fighter program between Russia and India (SU 57) that make India disappointed and get out from it. It is also why we also bring our lawyers to secure our IP right during the first research period (technology development phase).

Of course Indonesia is not interested to join KFX program just as a part producer since we have already designed and produced airplane parts since 1954 (Sikumbang/COIN anti guerilla aircraft) and continues with the creation of PTDI in 1976 where we design and also produce many aircraft like CN 235/C 212/N250/N219/Airbus parts/Boeing parts /Helicopters and also F 16 wings in late 1980s until the beginning of 1990's.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LIPNUR_Sikumbang


Avionics

Actually Indonesia can use its own avionics for its KFX version and it is why we also design program to produce many avionics for our IFX version. If we are not allowed to do that and must accept what ever South Korea has decided with its KFX version, there will be no such program exist.

So actually we use KFX/IFX program as the basis to develop many important jet fighter components. It is a long term project for us. Despite so, I believe we will still use KFX version for our IFX until the domestic component we are developing is approved by our military. We have companies like LEN Industry and InfoGlobal that can provide avionics component for our IFX version. InfoGlobal even has showcase its cockpit version for IFX in Indodefense event several years ago.

I'm not talking about Indonesia, I'm talking about Turkey. We reside in different parts of the world. Bilateral relations between Korea and Indonesia may be entirely different than those between Korea and Turkey. Hence, there may have been subtle but significant differences in the details of the two offers. If you have legitimate sources/proof that invalidates what I've been hearing and reading for years regarding TURKEY'S giving the KFX the cold shoulder, I'm all ears. I'd love to be corrected. If you don't, than I'm sorry but your post was a long read with little substance.

 

[Indos]

I'm not talking about Indonesia, I'm talking about Turkey. We reside in different parts of the world. Bilateral relations between Korea and Indonesia may be entirely different than those between Korea and Turkey. Hence, there may have been subtle but significant differences in the details of the two offers. If you have legitimate sources/proof that invalidates what I've been hearing and reading for years regarding TURKEY'S giving the KFX the cold shoulder, I'm all ears. I'd love to be corrected. If you don't, than I'm sorry but your post was a long read with little substance.

OK I dont have any information about what is inside the proposal offered from South Korea for Turkey. Although I think it should be similar with the proposal offered to Indonesia, that is why I show you some information about our IFX program. But you are right that I cannot debunk your previous information, only Turkish member with better information that can do that.

Anyway I really hope your TFX project can be a success. I also hope your country can make the jet engine intended for TFX program.

 

[Indos]

It's known that both Indonesia and Turkey are the most developed muslim nations in the aerospace, I used to wish that both of our countries developed a fighter with the help of BAE; but that wouldn't be realistic. I think you guys did the right decision for your own needs and invested in the right plane, it is for sure that the KF-X/IF-X will become a successful plane. I also wish we planned our TF-X with as the same way:

I also have similar wish that we can be in similar jet fighter project as well in the future. As we both know, there is tendency among nations to develop jet fighter project together that we can see happening in US and European jet fighter program. Actually, we already have joint project in a medium tank program and there is plan to develop IFV together in the near future as revealed by our PINDAD official.

Thank for your optimism on KFX/IFX program but we still need to wait some years to see whether this project is successful or not, and of course I hope the best for the program. As Indonesian, we also hope the best for Turkey in all of their defense project as we are natural ally and friend. One thing for sure is that we want to see Turkey to be successful in their jet engine program since we know it is a very critical technology and Muslim nations so far havent been able to master it completely.

But I do have a question. Why does the Turkish Aerospace sees Indonesia as a potential future customer of the TF-X? Do you guys plan to use the IF-X as a multirole fighter and need an air superiority fighter? It seems like you guys cancelled the Su-35 deal and will buy the F-16s instead, but is there a need for a 5th gen. air superiority fighter? If so, if you guys join the TF-X project, it would really be beneficial for both of our countries.

Well I can say Turkish Aerospace see Indonesia as future customer and partner of TFX because they see possibility for Indonesia to get out from KFX/IFX program. As we can see our current administration demand renegotiation in this ongoing project. There is possibility for the renegotiation to face death lock that can jeopardize the current cooperation.

Talking about Su 35, I see our new defense minister favoring F35 to replace our F 5 Tiger, but it let to Jokowi and his defense advisors to decide. According to what I see, Indonesia government will not cancel Su 35 since they have already signed the contract with Russia and rather hold the purchase until CAATSA not become a problem anymore.

According to me, Indonesia rather divide their fighter role as medium fighter and heavy and long range fighter. As we see how vast Indonesia territory is, the heavy and long range fighter IMO is still needed.

F 16 block 70 to replace 2 squadrons of our Hawk 200/100 IMO is just our Air Force wish list that I predict not going to happen until this current administration finishes its final term in November 2024. If we are still in KFX/IFX program I rather see we are going to replace all of our Hawk with IFX with condition the program can reach its mass production phase in 2026 as plan.

 

[mehmeTcc]

Well I can say Turkish Aerospace see Indonesia as future customer and partner of TFX because they see possibility for Indonesia to get out from KFX/IFX program. As we can see our current administration demand renegotiation in this ongoing project. There is possibility for the renegotiation to face death lock that can jeopardize the current cooperation.

Talking about Su 35, I see our new defense minister favoring F35 to replace our F 5 Tiger, but it let to Jokowi and his defense advisors to decide. According to what I see, Indonesia government will not cancel Su 35 since they have already signed the contract with Russia and rather hold the purchase until CAATSA not become a problem anymore.

According to me, Indonesia rather divide their fighter role as medium fighter and heavy and long range fighter. As we see how vast Indonesia territory is, the heavy and long range fighter IMO is still needed.

I think contrary to Koreans we are more willing to tech sharing / transfer of technology. Any Indonesian cooperation with Turkish Aerospace would end up with a design team of Turkish and Indonesian engineers, and that helps because you can also shape up the doctrine the aircraft comes with.

I explained in a different thread about how we need a long range deep strike fighter and if the F-35 story will keep being a nightmare for our side I think there would be a major design overhaul in TFX project. F-35 was supposed to be the HIGH plane in the mix whereas TFX was to be LOW. Now everything has changed, so it would be logical for TFX to change as well.

 

[Pax Ottomana]

It's also possible that we're all deluded and Elon Musk is right. Perhaps the era of manned fighters is indeed over in favor of UCAV/drone warfare. If that's the case we're all wasting our money in rather stupid ways.

Elon Musk says military drones will outlive fighter jets

https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/elon-musk-drones-fighter-jets

 

[Dante80]

It's also possible that we're all deluded and Elon Musk is right. Perhaps the era of manned fighters is indeed over in favor of UCAV/drone warfare. If that's the case we're all wasting our money in rather stupid ways.

Musk isn't really saying anything radical here, UCAVs are the future. But we are talking about multiple decades before this happens. And a couple more before this trickles down from the superpowers to the mainstream.