How Turkey got LUCKY with the F-35?

[KediKesenFare3]

Saying that Turkey won't get F35s in the next 10 years is a very bold statement. In fact, we just need a slight change in our foreign policy to alter the entire outcome of this discussion.

Never forget, being in our geography comes with many disadvantages but our country is still extraordinarily important for any foreign power who wants to influence Europe, the Middle East, Asia or Africa.

We can lose horribly as well as hit the jackpot. This isn't necessarily a good feature of our nation.

 

[Pax Ottomana]

You lost the argument when you quoted Pierre Sprey.

But I didn't only quote Perre Sprey, did I? Do you have anything to say about the rest? And what is it that Perre Sprey says that you find unacceptable and why?

Saying that Turkey won't get F35s in the next 10 years is a very bold statement. In fact, we just need a slight change in our foreign policy to alter the entire outcome of this discussion.

Never forget, being in our geography comes with many disadvantages but our country is still extraordinarily important for any foreign power who wants to influence Europe, the Middle East, Asia or Africa.

We can lose horribly as well as hit the jackpot. This isn't necessarily a good feature of our nation.

Ain't going to happen with all the outstanding issues between the US and Turkey, including not only the S-400 but also more important problems like US support for the PKK/YPG, Gulenists/FETO, East Med, etc. Turkey can only get the F-35s if the US does a 180 and completely abandons its overall Middle East policy. I know that's not going to happen in the next 10 years, hence my "bold" statement. By then the TF-X will be ready.

 

[Constantin84]

But I didn't only quote Perre Sprey, did I? Do you have anything to say about the rest? And what is it that Perre Sprey says that you find unacceptable and why?

You started your theory with a guy who dismissed BVR, radars and missiles on fighter jets. Your theory goes further by arguing that Turkey will build a better 5th generation jet than the US.Sir,you've centered yourself for ridicule.

 

[Pax Ottomana]

You started your theory with a guy who dismissed BVR, radars and missiles on fighter jets. Your theory goes further by arguing that Turkey will build a better 5th generation jet than the US.Sir,you've centered yourself for ridicule.

You're dismissing an idea simply because of who says it without putting forth any logical arguments whatsoever. The guy developed the F-16 and A-10. by the way, and is a better expert than either one of us. Stealth tech hasn't been tested against a decent military power and it failed against an enemy as week as Serbia.

 

[Constantin84]

You're dismissing an idea simply because of who says it without putting forth any logical arguments whatsoever. The guy developed the F-16 and A-10. by the way, and is a better expert than either one of us. Stealth tech hasn't been tested against a decent military power and it failed against an enemy as week as Serbia.

The guy didn't develop the F16.Stop peddling nonsense.

Downing a plane after hundreds of sorties doesn't make it a great success. It's these kind of stupid arguments that discredit you.

 

[T-123456]

AND that Turkey did well to move away from it for its own reasons.

Talking from the Greek standpoint or do you actually believe that?
My country didnt move away from it,due to circumstances like a fvcked up foreign policy(only mistakes),a called bluff made sure our removal from the program.
I still believe we will get them eventually,this government has a habit of changing sides.
Lets wait for Trump's re-election first.

 

[xenon54 out]

You're dismissing an idea simply because of who says it without putting forth any logical arguments whatsoever. The guy developed the F-16 and A-10. by the way, and is a better expert than either one of us. Stealth tech hasn't been tested against a decent military power and it failed against an enemy as week as Serbia.

Those are not invisible when the bomb hatches are open which is why it got shot down, yet that doesnt make stealth tech useless at all.

 

[Aspen]

F35 is good but not that good. It's hyped up a lot and does not do anything new that other jets can't already do.

F16 is still the most versatile jet out there, and best value for money.

What Turkey lacks with the F35, they make up with improvised stealth capabilities on F16.

Good example of this is when Turkey shot down two Syrian Su-24 last month. Turkey used their F16 to launch AMRAAM AIM-120C at Syrian jets and then turned all its radar off. The Turkish F16's sent a datalink to a nearby Boeing 737 E-7 AEW&C, AMRAAM's were guided by the radar of E-7 AEW&C to the target while F-16 was invisible to the radar of Syrian jets. The Su-24 likely did not even know they were being fire upon until the radar in the AMRAAM turned on seconds before impact and the Su-24 RADAR warning receiver even had a chance to detect what was happening.

In a dogfight, an F16 with a good pilot is better than an F35 with a good pilot.

US officially admits that performance of F35 is worse than the F16 but they claim it doesn't matter because nowadays its all about tactical stealth and US believes the age of dogfights is over. Hopefully nobody is stupid enough to believe that. This is basically a way of saying that US knows that an F35 will lose to an F16 if it finds itself in a dogfight where stealth capability is useless against an F16 that can outgun it on performance metrics.

Stealth doesn’t help when dogfights are still common, and as long as that is the case, F16 will always have an edge over the F35. F35 relies on being far away and having stealth but is not an agile jet with high power-weight ratio. F35 cannot get too close to its target or it will have a hard time escaping a more agile jet like F16. The closer an F35 gets to an F16, F35 becomes more vulnerable and F16 becomes more lethal. This is why F35's are typically escorted by other jets for defense but F16 can attack on solo mission.

Dogfights aren't going away any time soon, and the advantage of an Israeli F35 will be worth nothing if it gets into a dogfight against an F16. Stealth doesn't matter in dogfights, only the pilot's skills. F16 is a pilot's plane and F35 isn't. If an Israeli F35 ever gets shot down, I expect it to be at the hands of a more agile Turkish F16.

Also Turkey has drones anyway which are much more effective and cheaper than both F16 and F35.

Ultimate troll would be if one day Turkey makes their own drone fighter that shoots down an F35 some day.

 

[zhxy]

Turkey's defense budget is over US $ 18.97B (2018.). Spending an amount of US $ 20 billion to buy 100 Su-57s with TOT is very easy. This amount can be paid in installments over a period of 2-4 years.

 

[Robbie]

Very dumb argument. The fact of the matter is that Israel got them practically for FREE. Turkey would've had to pay 30-40 billion USD. Israel receives over $4 billion/year in free military aid from the US, not to mention around $8 billion/year in loan guarantees. Jews OWN the US.

Canada, for example, CANCELLED plans to acquire 65 planes and walked away from the whole F-35 program because it costs too damn much and the price keeps climbing. Canadian prime minister Justin Trudeau got elected mainly by promising Canadians that he'd never buy the F-35 junk.

Are you saying Canadians are stupid to not buy this "super-duper flying lemon"?

Canada have zero threat from its neighbours. Their threat perception does not warrant spending that kind of money for those kinds of capabilities. Do yours?

 

[Pax Ottomana]

a fvcked up foreign policy(only mistakes)

OUR mistakes? What the FVCK are you talking about?

Was it Turkey's mistake that the US fired 2 missiles on TCG Muavenet killing over a dozen Turks?
Was it Turkey's mistake to rescue Turkish Cypriots in 1974 with the US subsequently embargoing us for years?
Was it Turkey's mistake that the US, after traveling half way around the world, put sacks on our Special Forces guys in our own backyard? (Cuval Olayi)
Is it Turkey's mistake that the US harbors Gulenists in Pennsylvania and used them to organize a coup attempt on July 15, 2016? Much like they did in previous US/NATO coups in Turkey?
Is it Turkey's mistake that the US supports, trains and arms the PKK/YPG in Iraq and Syria, an terrorist organization that even the US recognizes but helps regardless because it kills Turks?
Is it Turkey's mistake that US companies don't recognize Turkey's and Turkish Cypriot EEZ and instead work with the Greeks because they're easier to buy off?

Our mistake? Eh? No. Maybe YOUR mistake. Not mine. Not any Turk's. Only those who pretend to be Turks.

 

[Robbie]

Never forget, being in our geography comes with many disadvantages but our country is still extraordinarily important for any foreign power who wants to influence Europe, the Middle East, Asia or Africa.

Thanks for sharing that. I can understand Turkey being able to influence Europe or the Middle East, but I'm interested to learn why you think Turkey is important for Asia and Africa.

 

[Pax Ottomana]

Canada have zero threat from its neighbours. Their threat perception does not warrant spending that kind of money for those kinds of capabilities. Do yours?

What capabilities? F-35 can't even reliably take off from ground. Aussie pilot couldn't get it to work for 1 HOUR and had to switch planes.

Those are not invisible when the bomb hatches are open which is why it got shot down, yet that doesnt make stealth tech useless at all.

Stealth is not completely useless, but it's not worth its huge price tag. It's nothing more than a marketing gimmick. It's also the reason why the US is no longer producing any new F-22s. Certain types of radars can detect it just fine. For example: https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/a29307410/radar-tracking-f-35/

 

[xenon54 out]

It's nothing more than a marketing gimmick.

Nobody pours trillions in a Marketing gimmik.

 

[Pax Ottomana]

Nobody pours trillions in a Marketing gimmik.

Hahaha. Are you sure about that my friend? Did you know that the Pentagon has lost $21 TRILLION of US taxpayer money and no one knows where it went?

Source: https://www.forbes.com/sites/kotlik...am-cant-account-for-21-trillion/#6cebc267644d

These corrupt motherfvckers aren't accountable to anyone (including US public) and they'll do and say anything for MONEY!