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How to beat the "1971Civil War " Psychological Syndrome !

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Check the Un website about j & k and maps for answer.
You need to brush up on history. The Instrument of Accession signed by Maharajah gave India all of J & K.

Being a bigger does meant that you can and get everything otherwise China is bigger and more powerful then India.
This time you need to read up on facts. When did China get bigger than India? Please elaborate?

  • China population - 1.4 billion
  • India population - nearly 1.4 billion

thus 1:1

  • India population - nearly 1.4 billion
  • Pak population - nearly 220 million

thus nearly 7:1


So you think one to one is same disparity as seven to one?
 
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In other words, there is NO CREDIBLE, GENUINE & IRREFUATABLE EVIDENCE that india annexed 65% of Kashmir in 1947/48.............................:disagree:.........................if you are going to lie then at least TRY to make it plausible................................................:disagree:






Bro, I have already exposed this troll. He can't provide ANY credible and genuine evidence for his claims....................:lol:

One natural source already provided but you ended with saying not trusty..

If new york times is not trusty then I could understand that what you mean by trusty(only Pakistani sources). So will not waste time of mine for you...

Suggestion- please Google and have at look natural sources
 
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Below text doesn't mention how many states. simply says states of North Western and Eastern Zones of colonial India.

Colonial India was a collection of over 600 princely states.


"THE LAHORE RESOLUTION"

Resolved at the Lahore Session of All-India Muslim League held on 22nd-24th March, 1940.

(1) While approving and endorsing the action taken by the Council and the Working Committee of the All Indian Muslim League as indicated in their resolutions dated the 27th of August, 17th and 18th of September and 22nd of October, 1939, and 3rd February 1940 on the constitutional issues, this Session of the All-Indian Muslim League emphatically reiterates that the scheme of federation embodied in the Government of India Act, 1935, is totally unsuited to, and unworkable in the peculiar conditions of this country and is altogether unacceptable to Muslim India.

(2) Resolved that it is the considered view of this Session of the All India Muslim League that no constitutional plan would be workable in this country or acceptable to Muslims unless it is designed on the following basic principle, namely that geographically contiguous units are demarcated into regions which should be so constituted, with such territorial readjustments as may be necessary, that the areas in which the Muslims are numerically in a majority as in the North-Western and Eastern Zones of India, should be grouped o constitute “Independent States” in which the constituent units shall be autonomous and sovereign.

(3) That adequate, effective and mandatory safeguards should be specifically provided in the constitution for minorities in these units and in these regions for the protection of their religious, cultural, economic, political, administrative and other rights and interests in consultation with them; and in other parts of India where the Mussalmans are in a minority, adequate, effective and mandatory safeguards shall be specially provided in the constitution for them and other minorities for the protection of their religious, cultural, economic, political, administrative and other rights and interests in consultation with them.

(4) This Session further authorizes the Working Committee to frame a scheme of constitution in accordance with these basic principles, providing for the assumption finally by the respective regions of all powers such as defense, external affairs, communications, customs and such other matters as may be necessary."[14][15]

"that the areas in which the Muslims are numerically in a majority as in the North-Western and Eastern Zones of India, should be grouped o constitute “Independent States” in which the constituent units shall be autonomous and sovereign."

Where does the resolution mention princely states ?
Example : The resolution doesn't mention Hyderabad which would be Southern or Central zone.
It clearly mentions North Western and Eastern Zones of India . So since only two zones were mentioned two states were envisioned.
The two persons who wrote the resolution Zafarullah Khan and A.K. Fazlul Huq, were themselves from those regions of British India.
 
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Why didn't India hold East Pakistan in 1971, and offer to exchange it for Azad Kashmir?

Wouldn't that have been a real victory? Isn't that what your Cold Start doctrine is all about?

No, we were too much poor to take care of another poor country.

India was never wanted and just wanted to help Bangladesh for their freedom.
 
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We always blame 1971 on India. We never took the responsibility of what we did in Bangladesh and we are still here in what remains of Pakistan. Bengalis were capable, they did it. Tharis and Balochs couldn't do that, that's simple.
And this simple fact, we simply are not ready to recognize. But ankhain band rakhni hon tu koi chez neend se jaga nahi sakti.
 
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Incompetence and treason don't have expiry dates.

Neither is Bhutto dead in Pakistan nor is Mujib de-seated as Pakistani founder of Bangladeshi nation.
Oh dear OK...bro if you are happy to argue I will let you carry on.

However re bhutto and mujeeb yoj are spot on
 
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I sympathize. Your psychological trauma goes back 1000 years and the last trauma in the third battle of Panipat is so severe that in Marathi you have coined a phrase to symbolize total ruin with the word Panipat.
So instead of saying you have ruined us , you say :
"You have done a Panipat on us".
Tum ne hamari Panipat kar dee ( Hindi equivalent).
:omghaha:
We will be messing with you for another 1000 years unless we both go boom.
Dil ko tasalli dene k liye ye khayal bhi accha hai galib:lol:
 
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You need to brush up on history. The Instrument of Accession signed by Maharajah gave India all of J & K.

This time you need to read up on facts. When did China get bigger than India? Please elaborate?

  • China population - 1.4 billion
  • India population - nearly 1.4 billion

thus 1:1

  • India population - nearly 1.4 billion
  • Pak population - nearly 220 million

thus nearly 7:1


So you think one to one is same disparity as seven to one?

Do you think that both are equally balanced military power¿

Pakistan was having much better military equipments tank, fighter plane, submarine etc in 1965 and 1971.

A common people don't go and fight..population does not matter. Just a example - Pakistan was having submarine in 1965 and PAF was having fighter aircrafts with air to air missiles. But, we were not...

Ohh.. What bs logics do you have... Wow
 
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One natural source already provided but you ended with saying not trusty..

If new york times is not trusty then I could understand that what you mean by trusty(only Pakistani sources). So will not waste time of mine for you...

Suggestion- please Google and have at look natural sources





Just admit your error, mistakes and lies and then move on.....................:azn:

We both no you were making it up and now you are not man enough to admit your lies.................:azn:
 
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No, we were too much poor to take care of another poor country.

That was not my question. I said why didn't India exchange East Pakistan for Azad Kashmir.
Will answer that question for you.
India's military and foreign policy experts realized far too late that was not a realistic bargaining point.
Pakistan was more than happy to dump Bangladesh on India and keep Azad Kashmir . Pakistan has successfully kept Azad Kashmir for 50 years and delivered a lot of pain besides. This was something Indira Gandhi and her foreign policy advisors feared would happen.
Poor or not India ended up looking after Bangladesh for the next three years till Bangladesh was recognized by international community and admitted to the UN making it eligible for foreign aid. To achieve this India and far more Bangladesh had to make humiliating compromises such as releasing POWs and dropping all charges and demands on Pakistan.

India was never wanted and just wanted to help Bangladesh for their freedom.

India got far more than it bargained for. Look back 50 years and look ahead 50 years.
 
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Pakistan did not surrender to India. The Instrument of Surrender is to Bangladesh. If Pakistan surrendered to India then India would be in control of Kashmir, West Pakistan, and East Pakistan.
FYI
Instrument of surrender.

1613923509286.png
 
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I never said resolution mentions the word princely.
"that the areas in which the Muslims are numerically in a majority as in the North-Western and Eastern Zones of India, should be grouped o constitute “Independent States” in which the constituent units shall be autonomous and sovereign."

Where does the resolution mention princely states ?
Example : The resolution doesn't mention Hyderabad which would be Southern or Central zone.
It clearly mentions North Western and Eastern Zones of India . So since only two zones were mentioned two states were envisioned.
The two persons who wrote the resolution Zafarullah Khan and A.K. Fazlul Huq, were themselves from those regions of British India.

It does not confine the number of states to just 2 in its most literal definition either.

The zones identified are to be assumed as different administrative units of the cobble union.
 
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Declassified documents 50 years later show how Indira Gandhi and her advisers P.N. Haksar, D.P.Dhar and Indian COAS Sam Manekshaw threw Bangladesh under the bus.
(Example: War Crimes trials was the last thing India wanted in the aftermath of the 1971 war .)
India views at least a rapprochement with Pakistan far more important to its security and regional big power status ambitions, than relations with any other country.

Gary Bass of Princeton University wrote a paper "Bargaining away Justice " with now declassified information. His paper is fascinating because on one hand he laments the miscarriage of justice and on the other hand he gives a blow by blow account of how both India and Pakistan actively colluded to avoid dragging out the aftermath of the civil war in pursuit of their own security priorities.
All Bangladeshis, Pakistanis and Indians should read this.
( Link )

The following extracts from the paper written by Princeton University Scholar Gary J Bass, "Bargaining away Justice" are extremely interesting.

" The basic reason was not legal, but military: although Indian troops and Bengali guerrillas had won a decisive victory in East Pakistan, the war had been inconclusive on the other front in West Pakistan. "

"As Hans Morgenthau put it, “[T]he principle of the defense of hu- man rights cannot be consistently applied in foreign policy because it can and it must come in conflict with other interests that may be more important than the defense of human rights in a particular instance.”31 In many ways, Bangladesh would seem a propitious case for prosecuting war criminals: there was a military victory by a liberal democracy; that democracy was appalled by the recent atrocities; it held many war crimes suspects in custody; and the per- petrator regime had collapsed. Even so, India, although victorious in the 1971 war, was not dominant enough to force Pakistan to accept humiliating trials of its troops. Instead, India sought its security through seizing a rare opportunity for making peace with Pakistan, embodied in the generous Simla agreement of 1972. With that strategic prize at stake, India proved ready to bargain away the trial of Pakistani war criminals. This was the kind of bargain that Huntington, Snyder, and Vinjamuri would expect.

In Bangladesh, too, international security concerns trumped the drive for retribution against the killers. Newly separate from Pakistan, Bangladesh desperately needed global acceptance as an independent state. With China and the United States hostile to the newborn country, Bangladesh feared lingering in a nether space of nonrecognition, which could tempt revanchism from Pakistan. Pakistan, however, insisted that the price of its recognition—a precedent-setting act of legitimation that would allow other states to follow—was impunity for war criminals. Bangladesh had little real choice but to acquiesce.

"At root, the problem was that India’s military dominance was not comparable to that of the Allies after winning the unconditional surrenders of Germany and Japan in World War II. It was not even as resounding as some less conclusive victories, such as the Allied victory over Germany and the Ottoman Empire in World War I or NATO’s 1995 victory in Bosnia.32 India could not impose its will on a helpless foe; it did not occupy West Pakistan, and could not have. Pakistan, even stripped of Bangladesh, remained capable of defying and provoking India. Under these strategic circumstances of a relatively incon- clusive victory, with the defeated foe’s cooperation needed for future security, some kind of amnesty was likely."

Summing up Gary Bass's paper:

The results of Pakistan's Civil War were not definite, unlike normal Civil Wars where the winning faction gets control of the entire nation. Pakistan retained control of its vital, strategic and far more defensible Western territory along with its rich mineral
and water resources and natural beauty. Pakistan also retained control of the core of its armed forces allowing it to rebuild and threaten India's territories .

Thus Pakistan's defeat was not like Germany or Japan in World War 2.
Pakistan deftly used its international clout to get back its prisoners and territories from India. But most important was India's desire to give preference to building relations with Pakistan over Bangladesh. I never knew this until a few days back when I read the excellent study on this subject that has been done by Princton University Scholar
Gary J Bass in his paper "Bargaining away Justice" . Reading this paper with declassified information now available is an eye opener for Pakistanis, Indians and Bangladeshis, As a Pakistani I felt quite relieved to read this document, and it made me look very differently on India 50 years after our Civil War. I am hopeful that if sense prevails now as it did then we can still avoid nuking ourselves. Then as of now Bangladesh was peripheral to the interests of both Pakistan and India.

Following is clear after reading this paper :

1. Bangladesh is never going to get any sort of "apology " from Pakistan. There will be no war crimes trials. Not even symbolic ones.

2. Semantics aside India is not going to pressurize or intercede with Pakistan on Bangladesh's behalf for war reparations, apologies, trials of "war criminals " nor will any other nation. Bangladesh is alone in dealing with Pakistan.

3. India is primarily concerned with avoiding a showdown with Pakistan, and will look to only display as much military posturing as to prevent a full blown war. There was a brief moment of madness in February 2019 but for now matters are likely to be quiet.

4. Optics aside, Pakistan has no real interest in negotiations or improved relations with Bangladesh, and the last thing Pakistan will discuss is the Civil War. If it had not been for the prisoners of war held by India, Pakistan may never have recognized Bangladesh and nor would the majority of Muslim nations as well as China.

5. Military incompetence has consequences. In the third week of December 1971, Bangladesh and India were at the peak of their friendship and power backed by the Soviet Union. Yet they were not strong enough to crush Pakistan in the West. The fighting in the West was by India alone, but India's failure to break Pakistan ultimately resulted in Bangladesh making a humiliating compromise on prisoners of war trials. So Bangladesh's dependence on India resulted in severe lack of maneuvering room.

Reading these 40 pages made me feel much better as a Pakistani. Deft diplomacy and raw military power worked for my nation. The USA, China and our Arab allies stood by us in those dark days. We have much to be grateful for.

I also ended up viewing India as it was then quite differently, and I regret that an opportunity to settle issues between my nation and India ( as has often happened) has been lost. Regardless, we were able to bring every one of our fighting boys home in dignity and honor, and even as an enemy we must give credit to India for sticking to International Law. Even if I have to say it... I salute India for this act of pragmatism.
 
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That was not my question. I said why didn't India exchange East Pakistan for Azad Kashmir.
Will answer that question for you.
India's military and foreign policy experts realized far too late that was not a realistic bargaining point.
Pakistan was more than happy to dump Bangladesh on India and keep Azad Kashmir . Pakistan has successfully kept Azad Kashmir for 50 years and delivered a lot of pain besides. This was something Indira Gandhi and her foreign policy advisors feared would happen.
Poor or not India ended up looking after Bangladesh for the next three years till Bangladesh was recognized by international community and admitted to the UN making it eligible for foreign aid. To achieve this India and far more Bangladesh had to make humiliating compromises such as releasing POWs and dropping all charges and demands on Pakistan.



India got far more than it bargained for. Look back 50 years and look ahead 50 years.

Completely wrong¡

India was too poor country in 1971 to take care of any other poor country.

India just helped to Bangladesh against Pakistan.

Do you think that India could take over Bangladesh ¿ answer is a big No.

Only possiblity was during the time that to help Bangladesh for independent.

India and Soviet were the first who recognized to Bangladesh.
 
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The zones identified are to be assumed as different administrative units of the cobble union.
Where do you draw this conclusion? It says -

"Independant states"

In Englis that is plural and NOT singular.
 
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