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How to beat the "1971Civil War " Psychological Syndrome !

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šŸ‘Thanks for appreciating my post. Your posts are a pleasure to read as well.
As intended in the OP it is the aftermath that we could discuss some more.
"Fall of Dhaka" should be viewed in the context of the "Retreat from Dhaka" when the Indian Army withdrew from Dhaka and Bangladesh in 60 days by February 1972.

In fact the "Retreat from Dhaka" is a vindication of the two nation theory. The original Lahore resolution in 1940 called for the establishment of "two states". The Lahore resolution was drafted by Zafarullah Khan and Fazlul Haq representing Muslim majority west and east zones of a future partition of India. See the extract below.

Thanks for the reply.

I would respectfully argue that the aftermath of 71 was a country that lost its prestige and the title of the largest muslim nation on the planet. Our influence in S.E Asia was reduced to zero. Any country that that loses territory to the enemy is at a loss that is why UK still holds the Falkland Islands and fought the Argentinians thousands of miles away.

That is exactly why West Pakistan military command tried to 'save' what they could despite bitter disagreements by esteemed commanders like Admiral Syed Ahsan. Had West Pakistan given East Pakistan away out of free will ( as was revealed by Henry Kissinger that Yahya Khan was thinking of granting independence prior to military crackdown in march 71) it would have been different.

You correctly point out that originally that a muslim country was to be composed of two sovereign wings. We would be far better off if that was the case.
Point is its never a good thing to lose your territory to the enemy.


If the two nations theory were to be challenged then India should have annexed that territory instead of leaving it as client state. The Muslim population there was not wanted back in India, even though the region had been part of British India just 24 years earlier.

If india can keep Kashmir as a autonomous territory somehow, why it didnt keep East Bengal? Economic and international pressure and also annexation offered no real benefits like it did with Kashmir. So a client state status for Bangladesh was deemed more suitable. Ironically, in 1974, india invaded and annexed Sikkim which was strategically important to them. I am sure if East Pakistan had large reserves of oil, hindus would have wasted no time.


We became a nuclear state because we misunderstood the then rationale for India going nuclear ( 1974 ) when it feared a rising nuclear armed China. Pakistan at that time did not figure in India's defense doctrine because the left wing government of Indira Gandhi firmly believed that a permanent peace with Pakistan was possible. India feared China then and still does. By its folly India has added two nuclear threats to security.

Nuke decision was out of genuine fear. india was actually actively supporting armed insurgencies in the remaining Pakistan Nwfp and balochistan. The famous raid at the iraqi embassy in islamabad uncovered many things.

Pakistan genuinely feared another repeat. That is why, I with due deference disagree. India's deployment of forces has always been more towards Pakistan and this hasn't changed ever. It was always nehru's and patel's desire to either completely subjugate pakistan militarily or economically. indira was no different.

Her siachen adventure is another testament to that. So, i see a consistent pattern of military aggression against Pakistan with a particular goal of neutralizing this country. East Pakistan loss was also a part of it.
 
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Albeit slowly, I think Pakistan is moving away from the "south asian" mindset as our interactions east of us have virtually diminished over the past 15 years. If anything, our relations with the nations North and West of us have increased substantially during that time.

It is our cities that I am worried about. South Asian cultural "pockets" such as in Karachi. Our cosmopolitan cities need to become "melting pots" representative of the overall population of Pakistan .
The people of Sindh, Baluchistan and KPK need their space in Karachi, Lahore, Islamabad, and Hyderabad. Likewise people from Punjab need their space in Peshawar and Quetta.

We should have an intermingling where for example the people of Baluchistan, and GB can showcase their culture to the rest of Pakistan . Cleansing the South Asian "mental virus" is important for our survival.
 
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It is our cities that I am worried about. South Asian cultural "pockets" such as in Karachi. Our cosmopolitan cities need to become "melting pots" representative of the overall population of Pakistan .
The people of Sindh, Baluchistan and KPK need their space in Karachi, Lahore, Islamabad, and Hyderabad. Likewise people from Punjab need their space in Peshawar and Quetta.

We should have an intermingling where for example the people of Baluchistan, and GB can showcase their culture to the rest of Pakistan . Cleansing the South Asian "mental virus" is important for our survival.



It is all happening albeit slowly.
 
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prestige and the title of the largest muslim nation on the planet

Do not worry too much brother,
that crown will be back on our heads in the next 10 years, lol
this time we won't be a thousand miles apart,
but a single whole.

Long live the dysfunctional population planning :rofl:
 
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Declassified documents 50 years later show how Indira Gandhi and her advisers P.N. Haksar, D.P.Dhar and Indian COAS Sam Manekshaw threw Bangladesh under the bus.
(Example: War Crimes trials was the last thing India wanted in the aftermath of the 1971 war .)
India views at least a rapprochement with Pakistan far more important to its security and regional big power status ambitions, than relations with any other country.

Gary Bass of Princeton University wrote a paper "Bargaining away Justice " with now declassified information. His paper is fascinating because on one hand he laments the miscarriage of justice and on the other hand he gives a blow by blow account of how both India and Pakistan actively colluded to avoid dragging out the aftermath of the civil war in pursuit of their own security priorities.
All Bangladeshis, Pakistanis and Indians should read this.
( Link )

The following extracts from the paper written by Princeton University Scholar Gary J Bass, "Bargaining away Justice" are extremely interesting.

" The basic reason was not legal, but military: although Indian troops and Bengali guerrillas had won a decisive victory in East Pakistan, the war had been inconclusive on the other front in West Pakistan. "

"As Hans Morgenthau put it, ā€œ[T]he principle of the defense of hu- man rights cannot be consistently applied in foreign policy because it can and it must come in conflict with other interests that may be more important than the defense of human rights in a particular instance.ā€31 In many ways, Bangladesh would seem a propitious case for prosecuting war criminals: there was a military victory by a liberal democracy; that democracy was appalled by the recent atrocities; it held many war crimes suspects in custody; and the per- petrator regime had collapsed. Even so, India, although victorious in the 1971 war, was not dominant enough to force Pakistan to accept humiliating trials of its troops. Instead, India sought its security through seizing a rare opportunity for making peace with Pakistan, embodied in the generous Simla agreement of 1972. With that strategic prize at stake, India proved ready to bargain away the trial of Pakistani war criminals. This was the kind of bargain that Huntington, Snyder, and Vinjamuri would expect.

In Bangladesh, too, international security concerns trumped the drive for retribution against the killers. Newly separate from Pakistan, Bangladesh desperately needed global acceptance as an independent state. With China and the United States hostile to the newborn country, Bangladesh feared lingering in a nether space of nonrecognition, which could tempt revanchism from Pakistan. Pakistan, however, insisted that the price of its recognitionā€”a precedent-setting act of legitimation that would allow other states to followā€”was impunity for war criminals. Bangladesh had little real choice but to acquiesce.

"At root, the problem was that Indiaā€™s military dominance was not comparable to that of the Allies after winning the unconditional surrenders of Germany and Japan in World War II. It was not even as resounding as some less conclusive victories, such as the Allied victory over Germany and the Ottoman Empire in World War I or NATOā€™s 1995 victory in Bosnia.32 India could not impose its will on a helpless foe; it did not occupy West Pakistan, and could not have. Pakistan, even stripped of Bangladesh, remained capable of defying and provoking India. Under these strategic circumstances of a relatively incon- clusive victory, with the defeated foeā€™s cooperation needed for future security, some kind of amnesty was likely."

Summing up Gary Bass's paper:

The results of Pakistan's Civil War were not definite, unlike normal Civil Wars where the winning faction gets control of the entire nation. Pakistan retained control of its vital, strategic and far more defensible Western territory along with its rich mineral
and water resources and natural beauty. Pakistan also retained control of the core of its armed forces allowing it to rebuild and threaten India's territories .

Thus Pakistan's defeat was not like Germany or Japan in World War 2.
Pakistan deftly used its international clout to get back its prisoners and territories from India. But most important was India's desire to give preference to building relations with Pakistan over Bangladesh. I never knew this until a few days back when I read the excellent study on this subject that has been done by Princton University Scholar
Gary J Bass in his paper "Bargaining away Justice" . Reading this paper with declassified information now available is an eye opener for Pakistanis, Indians and Bangladeshis, As a Pakistani I felt quite relieved to read this document, and it made me look very differently on India 50 years after our Civil War. I am hopeful that if sense prevails now as it did then we can still avoid nuking ourselves. Then as of now Bangladesh was peripheral to the interests of both Pakistan and India.

Following is clear after reading this paper :

1. Bangladesh is never going to get any sort of "apology " from Pakistan. There will be no war crimes trials. Not even symbolic ones.

2. Semantics aside India is not going to pressurize or intercede with Pakistan on Bangladesh's behalf for war reparations, apologies, trials of "war criminals " nor will any other nation. Bangladesh is alone in dealing with Pakistan.

3. India is primarily concerned with avoiding a showdown with Pakistan, and will look to only display as much military posturing as to prevent a full blown war. There was a brief moment of madness in February 2019 but for now matters are likely to be quiet.

4. Optics aside, Pakistan has no real interest in negotiations or improved relations with Bangladesh, and the last thing Pakistan will discuss is the Civil War. If it had not been for the prisoners of war held by India, Pakistan may never have recognized Bangladesh and nor would the majority of Muslim nations as well as China.

5. Military incompetence has consequences. In the third week of December 1971, Bangladesh and India were at the peak of their friendship and power backed by the Soviet Union. Yet they were not strong enough to crush Pakistan in the West. The fighting in the West was by India alone, but India's failure to break Pakistan ultimately resulted in Bangladesh making a humiliating compromise on prisoners of war trials. So Bangladesh's dependence on India resulted in severe lack of maneuvering room.

Reading these 40 pages made me feel much better as a Pakistani. Deft diplomacy and raw military power worked for my nation. The USA, China and our Arab allies stood by us in those dark days. We have much to be grateful for.

I also ended up viewing India as it was then quite differently, and I regret that an opportunity to settle issues between my nation and India ( as has often happened) has been lost. Regardless, we were able to bring every one of our fighting boys home in dignity and honor, and even as an enemy we must give credit to India for sticking to International Law. Even if I have to say it... I salute India for this act of pragmatism.

I so much wanted to like this post,
but, there are too many weak facts and ignored realities, sorry brother. I love reading your stuff, but the salute to India among other things was truly not needed.

I've been busy a couple of weeks and only came back on here today, so not in the mood for long-winded discussions just yet lol. But there is nothing respectful done by India in its history, let alone anything regard to Pakistan. The only thing it has displayed is two-faced cowardice.
 
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Do you think that both are equally balanced military powerĀæ

Pakistan was having much better military equipments tank, fighter plane, submarine etc in 1965 and 1971.

A common people don't go and fight..population does not matter. Just a example - Pakistan was having submarine in 1965 and PAF was having fighter aircrafts with air to air missiles. But, we were not...

Ohh.. What bs logics do you have... Wow

Better this, better that,
do you people ever get out of your fantasies?

Why don't you try and look at the whole picture,
rather than what has been forced fed to you by your government, and your lying military.

India had a constant supply of modern weapons, whilst Pakistan was put under military sanctions by its principal supplier USA, from 1965 to 1982, European countries joined America in restricting or stopping military supplies to Pakistan.
Pakistan had to fight with hands tied behind their back. Fight an opponent 10 times larger.

You still had to sign a defence treaty with the Soviet Union, and get the blessings from major powers, before you had the guts to attack East Pakistan, in West Pakistan, you couldn't do jacksh.t

Between September and November 1971, Indira Gandhi visited every major European country, plus America to get their blessing. No Indian leader has had such a condensed travel schedule, the only purpose was to get the asirwad, and do some bootlicking.

Don't talk BS, talk facts.
China is bigger and more powerful then India. They can take over arunachal pradesh and ladakh..

China did take over Arunachal Pradesh and Ladakh in 1962,
then gave it back as a charity to you beggars. After you went begging to America and the rest of the world, you even begged Pakistan, Nehru wrote a sickening letter to Ayub Khan, so shameful.

At that time China and India had similar levels of development. Please stop your BS.
 
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Reminder: We are discussing the aftermath of the war.

Indian POWs being released:

 
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Better this, better that,
do you people ever get out of your fantasies?
Why don't you try and look at the whole picture,

Good rebuttal.
Could you comment on
my OP ( Page 1 of this thread )
Like to hear from you, your views on Patriots Type 1 and Type 2,
šŸ˜Š
 
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Good rebuttal.
Could you comment on
my OP ( Page 1 of this thread )
Like to hear from you, your views on Patriots Type 1 and Type 2,
šŸ˜Š

lol
I am reading it backwards, but it all makes sense, whether the discussion is sensible or not is another matter, one too many idiots, who have nothing better to do than waste other peoples time.
I'll get to the first post, last :p:
 
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lol
I am reading it backwards, but it all makes sense, whether the discussion is sensible or not is another matter, one too many idiots, who have nothing better to do than waste other peoples time.
I'll get to the first post, last :p:
šŸ‘Just a suggestion.
We have beaten the topic of the Civil War, its causes, and the military angle hollow on umpteen threads.
This thread was to discuss the aftermath on which few discussions have been held.
The magic numerals 1971 have got ingrained in the psyche of quite a few of our members. A more balanced approach is to study the aftermath, and how we stand today.My OP headlines the objective.
Of course our Indian guests have tried to derail this thread as usual but we need to stay the course.
Researching the aftermath and particularly the immediate aftermath was very gratifying at least to me . So much data is available now that no one knew before. This was the purpose of the thread.
To research the aftermath and present it to others
It is so much easier to write one line trolling like our Indian guests do.
They only read or believe what they like and will not even believe their own records .
 
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It is not only economy but would satisfy the aspirations of the adjoining populations to maintain their ancient bonds of marriage, trade and culture. The boundaries as they now exist between Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan are artificial determined first by an unstable and very brief Sikh Empire, and later by the British.
Granting Afghanistan full Federation status and access to a sea port such as Gwadar would go a long way to meet desires of the people of KPK, and FATA.

First a Pakistan Afghan Federation and military alliance, and then possibly coopt Iran in.
This would make a very powerful military alliance able to offset any other regional power.

It would end the simmering unrest in FATA and Baluchistan.

Our South Asian mindset is the problem. Our interests obviously lie West. Which is why I fail to see the logic of some of PDF members still making outreaches to our former Eastern unit.
Fantastic post.

PDF members still making outreaches to our former Eastern unit.
I fail to understand this. What was point of the blooody 1947 then? Of all the wars since. The rivalry. The daily shooting on LOC. Is this all a joke?
 
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I fail to understand this. What was point of the blooody 1947 then? Of all the wars since. The rivalry. The daily shooting on LOC. Is this all a joke?

My apologies. I should have clarified I meant our Eastern wing that seceded.
The Civil War ended 50 years back.
In my view India got the worst deal of all with a huge diplomatic and economic fall out and above all a strategic fall out.
India now has to live permanently with a hostile nuclear armed neighbor that has inflicted pain in two sensitive front line states.
Bangladesh has to live in an enclave that is essentially a giant prison and a water logged one at that.

Pakistan devloped a powerful alliance with China to ensure that it keeps it's adversary off balance.
 
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Albeit slowly, I think Pakistan is moving away from the "south asian" mindset as our interactions east of us have virtually diminished over the past 15 years. If anything, our relations with the nations North and West of us have increased substantially during that time.
I am not sure about that. Most of the media in Pakistan is based in Karachi. Media is what spreads and makes influence. Most of Karachi is Indian. I give you one example of increasing Indian influence. In my family I grew up eating meat pilau, karah ghosht, chapli kebabs etc. Then few years ago I began to hear of Biriani. I did not even first know what it was. Next thing I hear it is Pakistan's national dish. Wtf?

This biriani fever was brought from India. Today pilau takes second place to apparently Pakistan's national dish. Then have you seen PTV classical music? It's all shyte imported fron India. That form of music is alien to Pakistani provinces. It's from Hindu and Utter Pradesh region of India.

Why not rubab as national instrument of Pakistan? Instead of some Indian trash as peddled by PTV which is dominated by certain community. Most of PTV's celebs are from India and over the decades have made peoples of Pakistan "Indian".


Anwar Maqsood Hameedi (Urdu: Ų§Ł†ŁˆŲ± Ł…Ł‚ŲµŁˆŲÆ Ų­Ł…ŪŒŲÆŪŒ) popularly known as Anwar Maqsood is a Pakistani scriptwriter, television presenter, satirist, humorist, and infrequent actor. He was well known for his drama write-ups for PTV in the late 1970s and 1980s.[1]

Early life and family
Anwar Maqsood was born on 7 September 1940, in Hyderabad State. He studied at the Gulbarga Trust School in Aurangabad. His large family migrated to Karachi in 1948, after the creation of Pakistan in 1947. His childhood years were spent in PIB Colony, Karachi with his siblings and family.[2]
 
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I am not sure about that. Most of the media in Pakistan is based in Karachi. Media is what spreads and makes influence. Most of Karachi is Indian. I give you one example of increasing Indian influence. In my family I grew up eating meat pilau, karah ghosht, chapli kebabs etc. Then few years ago I began to hear of Biriani. I did not even first know what it was. Next thing I hear it is Pakistan's national dish. Wtf?

This biriani fever was brought from India. Today pilau takes second place to apparently Pakistan's national dish. Then have you seen PTV classical music? It's all shyte imported fron India. That form of music is alien to Pakistani provinces. It's from Hindu and Utter Pradesh region of India.

Why not rubab as national instrument of Pakistan? Instead of some Indian trash as peddled by PTV which is dominated by certain community. Most of PTV's celebs are from India and over the decades have made peoples of Pakistan "Indian".


Anwar Maqsood Hameedi (Urdu: Ų§Ł†ŁˆŲ± Ł…Ł‚ŲµŁˆŲÆ Ų­Ł…ŪŒŲÆŪŒ) popularly known as Anwar Maqsood is a Pakistani scriptwriter, television presenter, satirist, humorist, and infrequent actor. He was well known for his drama write-ups for PTV in the late 1970s and 1980s.[1]

Early life and family
Anwar Maqsood was born on 7 September 1940, in Hyderabad State. He studied at the Gulbarga Trust School in Aurangabad. His large family migrated to Karachi in 1948, after the creation of Pakistan in 1947. His childhood years were spent in PIB Colony, Karachi with his siblings and family.[2]

There is a non-Indian culture growing and spearheaded by Coke Studio.
Sanam Marvi, Meesha Shafi, and Zeb and Haniya Bangash and even tiny Hadiya Kiyani are showing the way.
We need to encourage these art forms.

This is an interesting topic for a new thread. Could someone start one ?
 
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His large family migrated to Karachi in 1948
Most migrants in Karachi came between 1948-58. Well after Pakistan was made. So did this guy [1948] but will claim we owe them a debt. I don't know how that works. Migrants want us to thank them.

Am I missing some thing here :crazy:
 
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