How the situation in Pakistan has affected our psyche?

[haviZsultan]

I just wrote this and don't know where to use it in my book Badal, read carefully-those who understand can explain to others:

"War and bloodshed have hollowed our hearts and left them as useless husks incapable of the lighter emotions in life... they are like wrecked ships, despair is the only thing left in these hollow places.

Our heart does not palpitate because it has forgotten joy, it only remembers pain and death. It focuses on these things and forgets joy. In that unfeeling husk of darkness is forged only hatred. Among the afflictions this war has brought we have stopped feeling for our people. We are squabbling groups. Shia, Sunni, Pashtun, Muhajir, Punjabi. Do we look within at our limitations or justify the murders and blame them on Iran and Saudi Arabia?

Today we celebrate minor victories in an effort to force life in a lifeless vessel that has forgotten to sympathize with his people. A suicide bomber killed, a terrorist is arrested, but do we look at what drives that terrorist to blow himself up in a gathering of hundreds or destroy their own National aircrafts? We recognize they represent a malignant ideology but do we try to stop their indoctrination? Do we try to stop the cycle of hate and Badal (revenge)? Do we try to stop the framing of innocents and their eventual torture in our jails? Or do we just blame America and India?

We may be the first monster that has callously poisoned his own heart. We bred these men in the 1980's to know nothing but war and are now paying the price," Mando said gravely. His lifeless eyes scrutinized me gravely.

Behind him the fire died down leaving only ash.

@FaujHistorian @muse @WebMaster @Pfpilot @BATMAN @Xestan @Xeric @Irfan Baloch

In simple terms the question is how has the war on terror affected our psyches. Interesting debate. The second question is were we so nonchalant about murders in our land before the war and when did it come. Some figures here. In 2011 Pakistan accounted for 79% of all violent deaths in South Asia. How has this affected us again.

Since this is depressing and I failed to give a message of hope (the way we are-some of us are fighting against the terrorists) I would have posted it in members club but the debate there is very limited to a few people. So I posted this here. Be civil and Indians don't treat this as an opportunity to bash. Frankly only Pakistanis can have an answer to how our psyches were affected.

Muse I posted this because I have been noticing some of your posts don't have hope like mine. I didn't lose faith in Pakistan however. My background does not allow me to.

 

[zakriaarshad]

Majority of Pakistanis including me consider Love with Pakistan as a religious duty......
But the war of terror has just made us....... We are weeping when we are not weeping( internally saying... Thank God.. I am saved...) ....We are happy when we can not feel happy.... ( dancing while listening about murders ).... I cant type

 

[Paan Singh]

PAkistan is sitting on the pack of lies.People are even confused whether TTP etc groups should be declared terrorist or not.
Whether we should talk with them or not?

You guys lied on 65 war
You guys lied on kargil
You guys lied on 71 war even.
You guys lied on even war on terror(mushy).

and now people are confused whom we should trust n to whom we should not?

When these lies explode outside,its affects your mentality.

 

[Xestan]

First of all, Havi, we need to look at the history, lets say, Muslim history, or the Human history at large. Wars like these are not very common throughout the centuries, only a few nations were affected by such rebellions. A few Nations prevailed through the hard times and Pakistan will prevail too, Insha'Allah. I'm very hopeful. Let me explain why.

Pakistan is a Nation which has survived the hardest of times, if it wasn't the 'hope', any Nation facing the same war would have been destroyed by now. Pakistan is still here and will stay, it's not my blind patriotism for my country, it's 'cause I've seen the people of Pakistan fighting through any challenge they are faced with.

The war has definitely affected our psyche and in some way it has made the society more intolerant. We now have two extremes in our country, one belongs to religion and other belongs to secular ideology. The friction and proxy wars between both the extremes have worsen our situation in last one decade.

Now your question about acceptance of violence by the society, well, it's natural, we humans are bound to get adjusted with our surroundings, no matter how worse they be. Societies change their norms with changing times and I think, once the war will be over, we'll see a change.

Let me give you an example of 2 cities of Pakistan and how people living there have different psyche. In Karachi, people have now learnt to live under daily terrorism, because they see no ending to it. It has become part of their daily life. While in Lahore, people are still very reactive towards small incidents of crime and terrorism, because they have not faced the same situation as their countrymen from karachi.

People can adopt new mindset in a matter of months. The faster the psyche was changed to negativity, even faster we can change it again. We are just going through a bad phase right now. And even if Pakistan don't get good leadership in coming few years, the phase will be over itself.

You'll see, the change will come, it is natural. Allah has promised that. Just keep the hope alive.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Nations fight wars, and nations live through peace. Wars make them stronger and peace makes them prosperous.

And few "martial nations", become even more prosperous during the wars.

In any case wars for nations are like the process of tempering and annealing for swords. Wars help separate men from Eunuchs.


Pakistanis dealt with many wars some their own making and some from others.

But this war is terrible for us not because it is a war. No Sir.

We can take on war.

This war is terrible because so many Eunuchs and Mullahs and munafiqs are trying to kill us from within, while our jawans and soldiers are trying to fight it.

These Mullahs and Eunuchs and munafiqs have used all the tricks in their sleeves to say this war is not our war, this war is someone elses war. Do not fight it. We are so Eunuch. We cannot take it anymore.


Tell you my dear Havi.

the day one precious soldier lays down his life, the day one of our brave officers accepts martyrdom, that day the war is at our door and that war becomes our war.

Then no Mullah in the world can convince us that it is not our war

Then no Munafiq can use his tricks to confuse us.

And

No Eunuch can turn our fighting MEN into weakling mice.


So make sure to pick the right side.

If you are a lover of Pakistan, do not pick Eunuchs as your friends.


Thank you

 

[haviZsultan]

Nations fight wars, and nations live through peace. Wars make them stronger and peace makes them prosperous.

And few "martial nations", become even more prosperous during the wars.

In any case wars for nations are like the process of tempering and annealing for swords. Wars help separate men from Eunuchs.


Pakistanis dealt with many wars some their own making and some from others.

But this war is terrible for us not because it is a war. No Sir.

We can take on war.

This war is terrible because so many Eunuchs and Mullahs and munafiqs are trying to kill us from within, while our jawans and soldiers are trying to fight it.

These Mullahs and Eunuchs and munafiqs have used all the tricks in their sleeves to say this war is not our war, this war is someone elses war. Do not fight it. We are so Eunuch. We cannot take it anymore.


Tell you my dear Havi.

the day one precious soldier lays down his life, the day one of our brave officers accepts martyrdom, that day the war is at our door and that war becomes our war.

Then no Mullah in the world can convince us that it is not our war

Then no Munafiq can use his tricks to confuse us.

And

No Eunuch can turn our fighting MEN into weakling mice.


So make sure to pick the right side.

If you are a lover of Pakistan, do not pick Eunuchs as your friends.


Thank you

I knew you would like it since you are so Pro American and want us to look within. Cheers. This is a contemplative self-criticism.

 

[Ayush]

very true @haviZsultan,
a high moral is a basic requisite for a war,or perhaps any task.
i found an article-dont know if you would like this on this thread.just go through it,and if you feel if its worth then copy the whole article in your next post.i wont mind.
Being a Pakistani abroad | Blog | DAWN.COM

 

[haviZsultan]

First of all, Havi, we need to look at the history, lets say, Muslim history, or the Human history at large. Wars like these are not very common throughout the centuries, only a few nations were affected by such rebellions. A few Nations prevailed through the hard times and Pakistan will prevail too, Insha'Allah. I'm very hopeful. Let me explain why.

I know. We have been afflicted with great violence.

Pakistan is a Nation which has survived the hardest of times, if it wasn't the 'hope', any Nation facing the same war would have been destroyed by now. Pakistan is still here and will stay, it's not my blind patriotism for my country, it's 'cause I've seen the people of Pakistan fighting through any challenge they are faced with.

The war has definitely affected our psyche and in some way it has made the society more intolerant. We now have two extremes in our country, one belongs to religion and other belongs to secular ideology. The friction and proxy wars between both the extremes have worsen our situation in last one decade.

Interesting way to look at it Xestan.

Now your question about acceptance of violence by the society, well, it's natural, we humans are bound to get adjusted with our surroundings, no matter how worse they be. Societies change their norms with changing times and I think, once the war will be over, we'll see a change.

But compare this to India. One soldier killed (beheaded if we believe them and they are still punishing us by killing more and more soldiers. They do not treat death lightly like us. I wanted to ask if this is an affect of war. But no one responded on this thread.

Let me give you an example of 2 cities of Pakistan and how people living there have different psyche. In Karachi, people have now learnt to live under daily terrorism, because they see no ending to it. It has become part of their daily life. While in Lahore, people are still very reactive towards small incidents of crime and terrorism, because they have not faced the same situation as their countrymen from karachi.

Very solid point which I wanted to make. Violence has a way of making us (what should I call it) Beghairat (sorry for the term) We do not care and become nonchalant about daily killings and death. This is another thing the war on terror has done to us. When we returned here to Karachi we feared everything but our relatives were used to it. They feared nothing. Perhaps thats another reason they do not understand how their votes are afflicting Pakistan (they vote for MQM)

But this is one of the greatest afflictions. Becoming used to it and saying "yeh toh roz hota hai"... it is coming to accept a horrible situation and it means we refuse to fight back.

People can adopt new mindset in a matter of months. The faster the psyche was changed to negativity, even faster we can change it again. We are just going through a bad phase right now. And even if Pakistan don't get good leadership in coming few years, the phase will be over itself.

You'll see, the change will come, it is natural. Allah has promised that. Just keep the hope alive.

That is the message of hope I was seeking and that is why I like some Zaid Hamid supporters. They give us something to be proud of. I became a cynic because of what I saw and how my sacrifices for my country can matter little but I guess a lot still have optimism. You guys are proud, haughty and bow to no one. I like that and in this I would like to emulate you. WE Pakistanis were proud once. Now we have shrivelled up into cacoons of self-defeat. Criticism is necessary but it's purpose is not to make us lose hope. I hope Muse sees this.

Next will be a translation of what I wrote or how we have been moulded into a horrid shape by the flames of war that touched the clay of our skin.. I have wanted to discuss this for long.

 

[FaujHistorian]

I knew you would like it since you are so Pro American and want us to look within. Cheers. This is a contemplative self-criticism.

Please.

Do not use the tricks of Mullahs and Eunuchs and label someone who is pro-Army and pro-Pak as anything else.

I respect you

And I expect you too keep the discussion within Pakistani context.

So the question is.

Do you stand with Pak army and Pakistan

or

you stand with anti-Army anti-Pak forces comprising Eunuch Mullah Talib bozos?



Thank you

 

[Argus Panoptes]

.......................

In simple terms the question is how has the war on terror affected our psyches. Interesting debate. The second question is were we so nonchalant about murders in our land before the war and when did it come. Some figures here. In 2011 Pakistan accounted for 79% of all violent deaths in South Asia. How has this affected us again.

Since this is depressing and I failed to give a message of hope (the way we are-some of us are fighting against the terrorists) I would have posted it in members club but the debate there is very limited to a few people. So I posted this here. Be civil and Indians don't treat this as an opportunity to bash. Frankly only Pakistanis can have an answer to how our psyches were affected...................

It is not just the war on terror that has affected our psyches. There are so many problems that are becoming bigger with every passing year. There is no electricity. There is no gas. There is no water. The quality of life is going down day by day. Then on top of all that we have the problem of the war on terror.

The ability to deal with the psychological effects of war is directly related to the robustness of the society at large. Right now, Pakistani society is fragile, and thus is not able to deal with the consequences of the war either.

 

[haviZsultan]

I will let the responses come in and then write what I think. Thanks.
No one likes my posts anyway while there are dozens of thanks for everyone else.
Maybe I am wasting bandwidth howling about things no one gives a damn about.

Please.

Do not use the tricks of Mullahs and Eunuchs and label someone who is pro-Army and pro-Pak as anything else.

I respect you

And I expect you too keep the discussion within Pakistani context.

So the question is.

Do you stand with Pak army and Pakistan

or

you stand with anti-Army anti-Pak forces comprising Eunuch Mullah Talib bozos?



Thank you

What kind of question is that? Now we have to prove our patriotism and say we are with the army and Pakistan. Of course, all Pakistanis are and I am too and I deeply love my country. I want to fix its problems and because I cannot leave it alone I have gotten enough issues.

You appear pro-American and definitely have some link there which is obviously fine. Why get worked up about that yara. Easy ho ja, bhai, easy ho ja.

It is not just the war on terror that has affected our psyches. There are so many problems that are becoming bigger with every passing year. There is no electricity. There is no gas. There is no water. The quality of life is going down day by day. Then on top of all that we have the problem of the war on terror.

The ability to deal with the psychological effects of war is directly related to the robustness of the society at large. Right now, Pakistani society is fragile, and thus is not able to deal with the consequences of the war either.

Brilliant post. It is a combination of reasons that are getting to us indeed. But as an affluent guy I have noticed we middle classes have UPS for light and purchase gas. Its other Pakistanis who have the issues. Will give my opinions tommorow.

 

[FaujHistorian]

I ....


..... Now we have to prove our patriotism and say we are with the army and Pakistan. Of course, all Pakistanis are and I am too and I deeply love my country......


......

Anyone who even gives a hint of supporting Mullahs, or opposing our army's war against gangs will be a suspect for sure.

And please do remember that Islamists, hypocrites, and Eunuchs have used "whipping boy of America" to create confusion and division among our society.

And this is why it is so easy for the Talib-bozos and Islamsists to attack our sensitive installations and destroy precious equipment.

This off course is above and beyond the killing of 1000s of our army-MEN, our women, and children at the hands of Islamists.


So one must be clear and watchful of the "Islamist termite" and their pyschological and deadly suicidal weapons.

Thats all,

Everyone of us must show clearly that they side with our army men

Everyone of us must not use rumors and Islamist propaganda to sap the morale of our army men.


Thank you

 

[Son of Mountains]

PAkistan is sitting on the pack of lies.People are even confused whether TTP etc groups should be declared terrorist or not.
Whether we should talk with them or not?

You guys lied on 65 war
You guys lied on kargil
You guys lied on 71 war even.
You guys lied on even war on terror(mushy).

and now people are confused whom we should trust n to whom we should not?

When these lies explode outside,its affects your mentality.

LOL @ U sardar ji

we lied every time....And u spoke truth?


kesa science-daan ka bacha hy !!

 

[haviZsultan]

I was going to sleep but this post deserves and has elicited a strong response because it was the exact with or against us attitude which led to the framing of innocents in Canada. I always supported Canada but this was the prime reason for my sheer frustration with the Canadians in the last days and eventually even anger. I know of at least 8 cases personally in US too. Fauj that is the worst way to proceed.

First lets look at monumental facts. US is the only country to have committed genocide and gotten away with it and it is still getting away with all the bullying in the world. My point is a country with such a brash, callous foreign policy will be criticized and that criticism does not mean terrorist support. You want me to stop. I signed a document when I was 16 years old. It was the nationalist declaration to serve my nation till my life ends and I cannot stop raising an issue with implications to Pakistan.

You will also find I am the most liberal nationalist around who tried to put his people towards the path of reform. I will carry on with the advice @Aeronaut gave me. Thanks. And I fear no one because I have and will never commit a crime against my nation and people, for nationalism is in my very blood running fire in my veins. Another thing, maybe you have reasons to support US, are American or are forced to do so in some way but you seem to have a link to the army so I will talk to you as I do to a khaki, with the same respect.

Anyone who even gives a hint of supporting Mullahs, or opposing our army's war against gangs will be a suspect for sure.

When did I support the mullah, when did I oppose the army. I never supported the mullah as I am secular. Now the army. I criticize them yes, now that means a lack of support. You want me, a civilian to take the bullet that comes their way fine. I will and am taking it because 33% of the nationalists which these guys tried to shut down are military men so we nationalists and soldiers are one.

Let me go into my history. I supported the army and ISI everywhere. Whenever someone would say a word against them I would raise my voice and refute the rubbish spewed (common in western media) against them. But one day I realized, what if lets say the Americans choose to shoot me, or what if a Taliban bomb gets me. Will the same army support me? Don't I the civilian deserve protection from the state rather than perhaps harassment?

Thats when I started questioning. What about the civilians killed in WOT. Shouldn't they get justice, shouldn't they be compensated. A lot has to be done and when a person like me who supports the war fully is critical... now they label me anti-Pakistani. This is amazing. I do not remember majors and lieutenant colonels helping me contact upper staff when I said people were framing innocent Pakistanis in north america and it is Pakistan's duty to its citizens to stop it. But not one person listened. Now I criticize the army-never once stated I don't support them thunder clouds hang over my head.

And please do remember that Islamists, hypocrites, and Eunuchs have used "whipping boy of America" to create confusion and division among our society.

I don't understand if this is the case why Zarvan is not a target of this dia--- attack on my patriotism and I am? Zarvan is a big mullah. I am not even a mullah. I do not want to get that guy in trouble but what logic is there to this. None at all and an idiot can see through this and call an idiot an idiot. And that idiot is America and anyone who has a lack of brains to follow their logic.

Criticizing the US is not a crime by any definition. I will continue to do it.

But I make an offer right here right now to the military men if they have any doubt over my nationalism. I have since a young age done nothing but dreamt of a strong stable Pakistan and done everything to serve it to the best of my capabilities. I continue this even though I am sick and will make a joke of myself if I move out of my home. But if my patriotism is still to be doubted then I give an open challenge.

Hire me and give me all the resources I need. Though this is the armies job I will do everything in my power to track down Hakimullah Maseed, the chief of the Tehreek E Taliban Pakistan and bring him to justice, dead or alive. Give me a team, I can arrange to add people as I know more folks in the department.

The Pakistan army or you should contact me and meet with me and tell me, just don't get goras involved-I do this in my patriotism for land and nation. Also do note I do not even know how to hold a gun, I have no experience in war but I have a lot of knowledge on WOT and the commanders involved. I am not a soldier but a civilian.

And this is why it is so easy for the Talib-bozos and Islamsists to attack our sensitive installations and destroy precious equipment.

This is amazing. By what logic are you linking me to them. Who is more likely to blow himself up? A secularist or a Mullah. Why say this or run after the hundreds of others much more bitterly opposed to the US than me? I mean this is amazing. Are you trying to tell me I plan to attack those installations. Did US send some false e-mails from my account like they did for those innocent 8 files I saw? I mean why direct this against me?

You think I or anyone who opposes US policy may attack sensitive Pakistani installations. Thats a nationalists work?

This off course is above and beyond the killing of 1000s of our army-MEN, our women, and children at the hands of Islamists.

This is all true. But why directed against me? Just to defend US policy. Man you are an American aren't you? An American can't really talk like a Pakistani... very hard because the thinking is poles apart.

So one must be clear and watchful of the "Islamist termite" and their pyschological and deadly suicidal weapons.

You aren't even in the army as a lot of Islamists like Hameed Gul and Khwaja (now deceased) are sitting there. Who are you?

Thats all,

Everyone of us must show clearly that they side with our army men

How else can I prove that by saying that I will do their work and be willing to take the bullet for them. You do not know my patriotism. I have become objective over time but that does not change anything.

Everyone of us must not use rumors and Islamist propaganda to sap the morale of our army men.

Thank you

In 2008 or 2009 I remember a military source claiming that the lower ranks are very alienated with the army's failure to fight the war on terror on its own terms. If we do not understand how to fight the Islamist bastard because of whom half these problems occur we will never be able to fight him fauj. There is a way of doing everything. With or against us doesn't work. The Afghan taliban commanders we released said they hated Pakistan now because we tortured them. I say fine we should have tortured them maybe even killed them but why release them after torturing them. We can expect them to attack Pakistan now.

The challenge is open. Let me begin a squad with army support under ISI or MI or IB to get Hakimullah the commander of the TTP. You must have some link. Use it. You want to test my patriotism. This is it. Be straight-forward and say things to my face like this- that is better.

I hope this is an adequete response and it is not just me articulately speaking with the pen-it is me promising to prove my patriotism. I don't want Americans at my doorstep but Pakistanis. I respect only Pakistanis. It is an open challenge

 

[muse]

Today we celebrate minor victories in an effort to force life in a lifeless vessel that has forgotten to sympathize with his people. A suicide bomber killed, a terrorist is arrested, but do we look at what drives that terrorist to blow himself up in a gathering of hundreds or destroy their own National aircrafts? We recognize they represent a malignant ideology but do we try to stop their indoctrination? Do we try to stop the cycle of hate and Badal (revenge)? Do we try to stop the framing of innocents and their eventual torture in our jails? Or do we just blame America and India?

Muse I posted this because I have been noticing some of your posts don't have hope like mine. I didn't lose faith in Pakistan however. My background does not allow me to.

HaviZ

Thank for another excellent post - Hope? It's there just not much of it - Why not more hope? The Pakistani Armed Forces, these people above all else could have offered hope, It's clear to me, are just not any solution, they are the source of problem, they have been infiltrated and their ability to save Pakistan, is now severely limited - as you pointed, all the attacks on Armed forces bases and FC and Police, all of these attacks are based on inside information - The usual apologist line is that it's politicians to blame, well yeah, sure but it's really the armed Forces, and especially the ISI and the Army.

Taliban in Pakistan has been a problem since 1998/99, they had actually begun to form and capture territory since 1998/99 - no 9/11, no WOT, it was 1998/99 - See, you and I think of the kinds of things happening in Pakistan as a problem, obviously many in the Pakistani state and the Fauj, see these events as the birthing of a glorious Islamic whatever. It is this reality that makes me less hopeful, not about whether Pakistan will survive, but rather whether what does survive will be anything we may want to be a part of.